Recruiting

[OrangeMuskyFish]

For sure, the "leap" keeps getting pushed off. I'm very curious to see if next year actually is the year the recruiting is clearly better.

I am curious where this assumption that there has to be a "leap" comes from in the first place. If you are unhappy with the recruiting, that is a personal opinion and certainly not off-limits for a fan message board, but I'm just curious where it was written in Marrone's contract that gradual improvements in recruiting was unacceptable?

 

[billsin01]

exactly otto

Currently this class is like some of the GRob and end of P era and other HCDM classes. Upper 40's - Mid 50's in ranking and towards the bottom in comparison to fellow BE teams. Not saying there are not great prospects - there are - right now as of today it is no different than where Cuse has been. If they finish strong (Neal, Morgan, Lynch, Morris) and get a couple guys upgraded (Washington should be a 3, Ben Lewis might become a 3, Knapp might become a 4, Whigham a 3) then this would be rankings wise the deepest and highest ranked class at SU since '99 or '00 as it would crack the top 40 and finish around 37 or so.

I disagree with most of this, though I admit I'm not really a recruitnik anymore. But I think what people misunderstand about both P's last few classes and GRob's classes (by default when Marrone took over) is that they each had huge attrition numbers. P's ratings were what they were but he was losing 6, 7, 8 players to academics and then he lost a few others to injuries and transfers. His last few classes saw very few kids come through and stay 4 years. Same thing with GRob by virtue of his getting let go and Marrone's cleaning house. We had a huge mass of defections. People talk about GRob's recruiting and how bad it is but often forget that a couple dozen of his players either left or were shown the door.

At the end of the day I think people tend to overrate the importance of individual recruits and class rankings and DRASTICALLY underestimate the value of numbers and development/strength and conditioning. Do we need to upgrade the talent, particularly on the offensive side of the field? Absolutely, but just bringing in solid classes consistently will be a HUGE difference from the 6 or 7 years from the end of the P era through the GRob era.

 

[SoBristol]

I agree with some of that, but several (including me) are crediting GROB with good recruits at the top of his classes (Hogue, Williams, Carter) but not so much depth. Marrone is landing better depth, but without the playmakers who have impact early in their careers. You can list several GROB recruits who played and contributed on offense as frosh (Williams, Sales, Carter, Bailey, Lemon); Marrone's best guys would be Kobena and Moore?
On the other hand, Marrone has done better with JUCOs and bigs; and he has made the team competitive. Not world beaters yet, but competitive. The disappointment is that in year 3, the playmakers (with the exception of West) are GROB recruits.

 

[orangephan]

I like the class, but it's unspectacular by far. I'd say we're in the 50-60 range right now. A typical SU class, some good *** prospects and some underated/under the radar ** types. A lot of 'coach-up' talent- unpredictable, but the potential is there. If we were to land Morgan, Neal and Lynch or Morris, I think we could call it successful class by current rebuilding standards. Land a Perkins and an out-of-the-blue high-end prospect or two, then we're starting to turn the corner. Where we've missed so far, IMO, are bigger OL/DL types, like Karl and Jones, a SDE to understudy Jones, and a deep threat WR. For a change, we've done a great job landing TEs. The LBs look to be solid, but I can see 1-2 going to WDE. If we are lucky enough to land Neal, Perkins and/or Logan, we rate an A at LB. The DB crop looks good, especially if we land Morgan. Also, we need one more solid RB; Lynch or Morris would fit the bill. McFarlane could also project here, but I still consider him to be a future S/WIL type talent.

 

[orangenauburn]

we need to finish strong and get some upgrades from the services for this class to be considered any different than the past few years

 

[SU8888]

Is Mcfarlene going to play LB or running back? If he is being recruited as a rb do we need another?

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I disagree with most of this, though I admit I'm not really a recruitnik anymore. But I think what people misunderstand about both P's last few classes and GRob's classes (by default when Marrone took over) is that they each had huge attrition numbers. P's ratings were what they were but he was losing 6, 7, 8 players to academics and then he lost a few others to injuries and transfers. His last few classes saw very few kids come through and stay 4 years. Same thing with GRob by virtue of his getting let go and Marrone's cleaning house. We had a huge mass of defections. People talk about GRob's recruiting and how bad it is but often forget that a couple dozen of his players either left or were shown the door.

At the end of the day I think people tend to overrate the importance of individual recruits and class rankings and DRASTICALLY underestimate the value of numbers and development/strength and conditioning. Do we need to upgrade the talent, particularly on the offensive side of the field? Absolutely, but just bringing in solid classes consistently will be a HUGE difference from the 6 or 7 years from the end of the P era through the GRob era.

Good post, Bills. Excellent points.

 

[orangenauburn]

to billsin01 -- I know what you are saying, but all I was saying is that if you look at the ratings of the players and the overall class grade by the couting services, this class is no different than end of era P or GRob classes. Do more kids make it? yes - do they add more depth? yes - but we still had playmakers not make it to campus -- Defferal Davis would be playing, Ashton Broyld and Tyree Smallwood, Dale Peterman, Dom Timbers ... these were all 3*** and 4**** guys that did not make it to campus.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I am curious where this assumption that there has to be a "leap" comes from in the first place. If you are unhappy with the recruiting, that is a personal opinion and certainly not off-limits for a fan message board, but I'm just curious where it was written in Marrone's contract that gradual improvements in recruiting was unacceptable?

Well, where it came from was that a lot of posters said from the beginning of his tenure that Marrone was a great recruiter and we should expect it to improve significantly.:noidea:

I'm not saying you said that, I'm just saying that was the common sentiment.

I think it is unclear at this point how much recruiting has improved, although I think Bills made a great point - most of these guys are qualifying and making it to campus, which was a big issue under our previous two HCs.

 

[ImperialOrange]

to billsin01 -- I know what you are saying, but all I was saying is that if you look at the ratings of the players and the overall class grade by the couting services, this class is no different than end of era P or GRob classes. Do more kids make it? yes - do they add more depth? yes - but we still had playmakers not make it to campus -- Defferal Davis would be playing, Ashton Broyld and Tyree Smallwood, Dale Peterman, Dom Timbers ... these were all 3*** and 4**** guys that did not make it to campus.

Right but the former regimes recruiting classes are also propped up by Baskin, Pierce, Tucker counted 2x, Preaster, etc. There was a few good ones in Brinkley, Carter, Hogue, etc. but looking at a majority of what we were getting never produced in any way shape or form which matched their ratings and offer lists.

Even the less highly sought after recruits are guys with better measurables and seem to have higher upside. You have to feel alot better about 2 star guys the staff is after early vs late throw ins.

 

[BleedsOrange44]

Positives... currently filling out a lot of needs. Really solid mix of high upside athletes and guys who profile as consistent performers/leader types. Going down the list on a case by case basis, I don't see more than a couple guys that I am really not all that excited to see what they can do for us.

Negatives... I would like to see our OL come in a little bigger. Hopefully they will have the luxury of RS, but with two guys graduating and Hickey's injury, who knows. Obviously, still would like to see a couple more guys who have upside AND are already relatively polished... but that will come.

Wild Cards... I think Cornelius is going to be very good for us, but if he comes in with a little more speed than advertised, he could leave here as an NFL draft pick.... All of a sudden there is vague talk regarding the slimming chances of Smallwood ending up here. I hope that isn't the case. Whether it's as a speed back, punt returner, or lining up in the slot, Smallwood's speed could combine with Kobena and Hale to put a lot of elusiveness on the field when need be..... In the search for Rippy, Neal, and Logan, Myles Davis is the forgotten man. How good is he? Are we happy with how Spruill has done in the middle this year? If Myles is as good as the Milford coach was saying, does it make sense for him to come in and split time in the middle with Diabate, let Spruill go back to one side, and let the young trio of Lynch, Davis, and Vigille split time in different packages as they develop?...... Is Whigham capable of taking a RS year and transitioning to CB?

Overall... Very happy so far. Let's get Morgan next. Still could be better, and it will get there.

Wow...very good analysis. Couldn't agree more. OL is a major concern of mine going forward.

 

[Upstate]

I said it before and I'll say it again, Myles Davis is going to be the most physically ready freshman LB that SU has seen in the last 10-15 years. He is already built like an NFL player. Abner Logan is built the same way. It's all going to depend on how his rehab has gone and if they can build on his speed and quickness.

 

[orangenauburn]

Did logan commit?

 

[bnoro]

Did logan commit?

no. final 5. doubtful he comes here

 

[wfschrec]

no. final 5. doubtful he comes here

Agreed ... don't think Logan or Perkins sign up for Cuse ... we have a legit shot at Neal and Morgan though ...

 

[billsin01]

to billsin01 -- I know what you are saying, but all I was saying is that if you look at the ratings of the players and the overall class grade by the couting services, this class is no different than end of era P or GRob classes. Do more kids make it? yes - do they add more depth? yes - but we still had playmakers not make it to campus -- Defferal Davis would be playing, Ashton Broyld and Tyree Smallwood, Dale Peterman, Dom Timbers ... these were all 3*** and 4**** guys that did not make it to campus.

A couple counterpoints:

-- The general point is that more kids are making it, which is a good thing. I think the quality of the overall recruits is something much more accurately measured a couple years down the road (on signing day i don't think a single person was fired up about derrell smith but plenty of folks were convinced Romale Tucker was a huge get or Jonny Miller -- just as an example).

-- Secondly, you list a few players but let's point out that Broyld and Smallwood are still potentially going to make it at some point (we'll see). But, regardless, it's four players from two classes. With the exception of Copa and a couple other injury cases (unavoidable), that's a very legitimate improvement over a couple of P's classes that had no-shows nearing double-digits and Grob's, which lost probably an average of 5-7 per class (in addition to the normal attrition) once the house-cleaning was finished.

-- As far as the ratings of the players and the addition of playmakers, I see these as separate issues. I'm not the type who constantly bashes the star system -- it's fine. But I do believe you can get talented kids who just take a bit longer to mold into quality football players. It just takes time. When you consider Marrone's first half-class was thrown together in a couple weeks and his most recent group are true frosh, I really think the only class you can truly begin to evaluate is the Feb. 2010 kids. It certainly seems to me like there are some players in this group: I love Spruill, Lyn, Krautman and Davis. I think West, Gulley and Kobena have excellent potential (in fact I'd argue Gulley would be a factor today if not injured). Goggins and Bromley have been solid; Hay has been a 2-year starter; Wales, Wilkes and Jerome Smith have been decent, Macky's a starter and Fisher's contributed. Of the guys who haven't gotten much run, Robinson and Kinder seem to be getting pretty good reviews. I guess the jury is still out to a large degree on guys like Rene, Beaulieu, Kinder, Miller, etc. But basically it was a decent class and I wouldn't be surprised if, a year from now we're talking about Gulley as a real good back, Spruill, Lyn and Davis anchoring the defense, Wales as a dangerous TE and maybe a guy or two like Robinson or Kinder or Fleming adding some playmaking.

My basic point is -- of the one class you can begin to truly evaluate I think we did OK. Could we do better? No question. But if we can just do that consistently it would represent a major upgrade. Oh, and the last point is, I don't think Marrone will ever be a sexy recruiter like a Zook or Saban or someone. I think he's more an Edsall type -- guys with good talent but very much under the radar. People can dislike that, but I just don't see him morphing into a phenomenal recruiter. At least I never bought that logic. (Kinda like people loving his public speaking appearances -- I never really saw what most here saw with those either ... but I like the guy as a coach).

 

[Upstate]

no. final 5. doubtful he comes here

Sounds like we're out of it

"N.C. State, Maryland and Northwestern are Logan’s current top three in no order (though we feel that the ACC schools may have a slight advantage). He gave his thoughts on each." from 247sports.com

 

[jkm54]

A couple counterpoints:

My basic point is -- of the one class you can begin to truly evaluate I think we did OK. Could we do better? No question. But if we can just do that consistently it would represent a major upgrade. Oh, and the last point is, I don't think Marrone will ever be a sexy recruiter like a Zook or Saban or someone. I think he's more an Edsall type -- guys with good talent but very much under the radar. People can dislike that, but I just don't see him morphing into a phenomenal recruiter. At least I never bought that logic. (Kinda like people loving his public speaking appearances -- I never really saw what most here saw with those either ... but I like the guy as a coach).

Great points, bills. I think if the 2011 class and the 2012 class turn into anything like the 2010 class, we've really built a solid foundation to go to the next level recruiting-wise. Plus, it seems to me that we're competing with more AQ conference schools, and winning some of these recruiting battles. By that measure alone, I would note improvement in this area. If these three classes are all comparable, and the rumors of money going into facilities are true, I really think that Marrone doesn't need to be as 'sexy' as a recruiter in order to pull in the top tier recruits. The program, the facilities, and hopefully a couple bowl wins will hopefully start to help Marrone in making the leap to the nexte level recruiting wise.