Red's gotta learn when Kiyan is cooking

[Jake]

This is pretty simple concept. Whomever is playing well during the game should keep playing.

Last night Anthony should've played more. Some nights he shouldn't.

This. There are aspects of Kiyan’s game I love - specifically his ability to create his own shot and be crafty around the basket. When he gets his feet set and gets a good look, he’s pretty solid.

However, he is a ball stopper. A good percentage of his touches end up with him trying to set up his defender from deep and you know passing isn’t in the plan.

My concern is the more minutes he gets, the more we’re gonna see the latter.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

This. There are aspects of Kiyan’s game I love - specifically his ability to create his own shot and be crafty around the basket. When he gets his feet set and gets a good look, he’s pretty solid.

However, he is a ball stopper. A good percentage of his touches end up with him trying to set up his defender from deep and you know passing isn’t in the plan.

My concern is the more minutes he gets, the more we’re gonna see the latter.

I think some of that ball stopping is a function of who he's often on the floor with.

I'm supportive of Kiyan doing whatever he wants with the ball if he has to share the ball with Souare, for example.

 

[HyattsCuse]

This. There are aspects of Kiyan’s game I love - specifically his ability to create his own shot and be crafty around the basket. When he gets his feet set and gets a good look, he’s pretty solid.

However, he is a ball stopper. A good percentage of his touches end up with him trying to set up his defender from deep and you know passing isn’t in the plan.

My concern is the more minutes he gets, the more we’re gonna see the latter.

Well said. This is exactly what I think.

He’s definitely Melo’s kid. Melo was a gifted iso scorer, but he was a ball stopper in the NBA for most of his career. However, when he was Olympic Melo, he showed he could excel within the offense they ran.

Kiyan has frequently become a black hole when he gets the ball. I do enjoy watching him go to work when he has a mismatch. But is being a ball stopper all on him? What are the coaches telling him to do? He’s a confident kid, but if we actually had a steady offensive system the players understood how to play within, I can’t imagine Kiyan would just decide to go off and do his own thing the majority of the time he gets the ball?

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Well said. This is exactly what I think.

He’s definitely Melo’s kid. Melo was a gifted iso scorer, but he was a ball stopper in the NBA for most of his career. However, when he was Olympic Melo, he showed he could excel within the offense they ran.

Kiyan has frequently become a black hole when he gets the ball. I do enjoy watching him go to work when he has a mismatch. But is being a ball stopper all on him? What are the coaches telling him to do? He’s a confident kid, but if we actually had a steady offensive system the players understood how to play within, I can’t imagine Kiyan would just decide to go off and do his own thing the majority of the time he gets the ball?

He definitely wouldn't. And he does recognize in most cases when he's in position to set a teammate up for an easy basket. He works pretty quickly when he sees those opportunities.

I can't remember which game it was, but we were getting zoned and he was positioned in the high low after checking in, got the ball and immediately turned and made the move to get an alleyoop to one of our bigs guys. He read it before the pass even came in to him. He knew it was going to be there.

He's our most instinctual player. Maybe Williams is a little more, but there isn't as much to his game.

 

[qdawgg]

Well said. This is exactly what I think.

He’s definitely Melo’s kid. Melo was a gifted iso scorer, but he was a ball stopper in the NBA for most of his career. However, when he was Olympic Melo, he showed he could excel within the offense they ran.

Kiyan has frequently become a black hole when he gets the ball. I do enjoy watching him go to work when he has a mismatch. But is being a ball stopper all on him? What are the coaches telling him to do? He’s a confident kid, but if we actually had a steady offensive system the players understood how to play within, I can’t imagine Kiyan would just decide to go off and do his own thing the majority of the time he gets the ball?

He’s Melo’s kid but is nowhere close to the level of player Melo was at this point and may never be. Melo was a mature BB player in all facets from the very start and improved on how good he always was, throughout the year. He was smart, knew when to shoot and take a defender on, could handle the ball, could score anywhere on the floor and could be matched up with almost anyone in the country.

Kiyan is nowhere close to that IMO. He definitely has talent, not taking any of that away from him. But as has been mentioned, he’s looking to score and not play within an offense. Not that our staff knows how to implement an offense. My big gripe with him at this point is he still has a tendency to drive into double teams, drive to the basket with no clear plan and loses the ball. But the missed pass on the 2:1 break came off as a very selfish play IMO. There was absolutely no reason to not make that pass.

 

[tptcuse]

Yeah, but there are times where Kiyan gets completely stymied trying to work off the dribble and JJ ends up being literally the only guy on the team who can actually do anything to get by his defender and create. It's all match-up dependent, I guess.

That being said, a game like last night, where Kiyan was making things happen on the offensive end, he cannot sit for as long as he did in the second half, especially at a time when we were struggling to put the ball in the basket and JJ wasn't giving much of anything.

Weirdly, JJ is making some better decisions this season and passing more. But he hasn’t been able to make his layups like he did in the past.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

He’s Melo’s kid but is nowhere close to the level of player Melo was at this point and may never be. Melo was a mature BB player in all facets from the very start and improved on how good he always was, throughout the year. He was smart, knew when to shoot and take a defender on, could handle the ball, could score anywhere on the floor and could be matched up with almost anyone in the country.

Kiyan is nowhere close to that IMO. He definitely has talent, not taking any of that away from him. But as has been mentioned, he’s looking to score and not play within an offense. Not that our staff knows how to implement an offense. My big gripe with him at this point is he still has a tendency to drive into double teams, drive to the basket with no clear plan and loses the ball. But the missed pass on the 2:1 break came off as a very selfish play IMO. There was absolutely no reason to not make that pass.

It looked awkward, I thought he kind of fumbled it.

 

[qdawgg]

It looked awkward, I thought he kind of fumbled it.

I’ve gotta watch it again. I think I might be thinking of a different play than others. Someone else mentioned Sadiq and I thought it was freeman, as far as the play I was like, wth. I thought freeman looked at him too, like, why didn’t you pass that.

 

[qdawgg]

It looked awkward, I thought he kind of fumbled it.

I just found it. It was sadiq, 9:25 in 1st half.

I watched it a bunch of times and slowed it down. I didn’t really see a fumble or awkwardness until after he already missed the opportunity to make the pass, the 2nd defender showed up and he tried dribbling into his defender. Then kind of lost control of the ball. In fairness, he should have made the pass but it was a little more “bang, bang” then I realized watching it live. Once he didn’t make the pass then he was stuck in a 1v1 scenario and fumbled the ball.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I just found it. It was sadiq, 9:25 in 1st half.

I watched it a bunch of times and slowed it down. I didn’t really see a fumble or awkwardness until after he already missed the opportunity to make the pass, the 2nd defender showed up and he tried dribbling into his defender. Then kind of lost control of the ball. In fairness, he should have made the pass but it was a little more “bang, bang” then I realized watching it live. Once he didn’t make the pass then he was stuck in a 1v1 scenario and fumbled the ball.

Thanks for actually checking it out. It did look like it was setting up for an alleyoop.

 

[IthacaMatt]

LET HIM COOK

That's it, that's teh post.

Two comments:

1. Against P5 competition, Kiyan's dribbles into the lane become turnovers 50% of the time. And that's a big part of what opens up his game for the 3 point shot. His handle has to be better.

2. Against P5 competition, his defense has been poor - worse than JJ, even. JJ is not the turnover risk that Kiyan is, and plays better defense. Kiyan is of course a better offensive player. But we give up too many points and too many possessions, until he starts playing better.

I totally believe he can do it. He's so talented. But he's kind of hitting that Freshman Wall, when the first month of the season was SO easy for him.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Two comments:

1. Against P5 competition, Kiyan's dribbles into the lane become turnovers 50% of the time. And that's a big part of what opens up his game for the 3 point shot. His handle has to be better.

2. Against P5 competition, his defense has been poor - worse than JJ, even. JJ is not the turnover risk that Kiyan is, and plays better defense. Kiyan is of course a better offensive player. But we give up too many points and too many possessions, until he starts playing better.

I totally believe he can do it. He's so talented. But he's kind of hitting that Freshman Wall, when the first month of the season was SO easy for him.

I have absolutely zero problem watching Kiyan play poorly.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I have absolutely zero problem watching Kiyan play poorly.

The goal is to win games, right?
Red gave him some tough love yesterday.
Play better, young man.

 

[MikeSU02]

The goal is to win games, right?
Red gave him some tough love yesterday.
Play better, young man.

Our #1 issue is Red. #2 is JJ.

Everything else after that is worrying about stomping out a cigarette in the middle of a forest fire.

Kiyan can be a bit of a black hole but JJ is playing 30+ mins a game and any wins are in spite of him for the most part.

Of course Kiyan and George etc can play better. But the silver bullet is changing how we use JJ until we can change our coach.

 

[Cuse117]

Everything else after that is worrying about stomping out a cigarette in the middle of a forest fire.

Couldn't put it any better than this.

 

[Scooch]

Our #1 issue is Red. #2 is JJ.

Everything else after that is worrying about stomping out a cigarette in the middle of a forest fire.

Kiyan can be a bit of a black hole but JJ is playing 30+ mins a game and any wins are in spite of him for the most part.

Of course Kiyan and George etc can play better. But the silver bullet is changing how we use JJ until we can change our coach.

I hate piling on JJ, even though I've certainly been guilty of doing just that.

I don't think JJ is our #2 problem in the sense that he's only a problem due to Red's bullheaded use of him. He's part and parcel of our #1 problem = Red.

JJ is who he is, and has been since the day he stepped foot on campus 3 years ago. He's a bench piece who should get 10-20 minutes depending on each game's circumstances. It's entirely on Red for forcing him to be a 32+ minute/game starter.

 

[DoctahLexus]

I hate piling on JJ, even though I've certainly been guilty of doing just that.

I don't think JJ is our #2 problem in the sense that he's only a problem due to Red's bullheaded use of him. He's part and parcel of our #1 problem = Red.

JJ is who he is, and has been since the day he stepped foot on campus 3 years ago. He's a bench piece who should get 10-20 minutes depending on each game's circumstances. It's entirely on Red for forcing him to be a 32+ minute/game starter.

The problem is all of our guards are playing like guys who would ideally be 10-20 minute bench pieces. You can convince me that JJ is not good enough, you can't convince me that there is some guard on our roster clearly so much better that he deserves to take most of his mins. Kingz is the closest, but that is largely on his defense and he is also taking time at the small forward spot. His turnovers late against GT were just as big a reason for our blown lead as anything JJ did. Nobody is doing enough good things at guard to make JJ a 10 minute player. I am hoping Kiyan can be that guy down the road this season and agree he should play a little more, but it has been inconsistent with him too.

 

[Scooch]

The problem is all of our guards are playing like guys who would ideally be 10-20 minute bench pieces. You can convince me that JJ is not good enough, you can't convince me that there is some guard on our roster clearly so much better that he deserves to take most of his mins. Kingz is the closest, but that is largely on his defense and he is also taking time at the small forward spot. His turnovers late against GT were just as big a reason for our blown lead as anything JJ did. Nobody is doing enough good things at guard to make JJ a 10 minute player. I am hoping Kiyan can be that guy down the road this season and agree he should play a little more, but it has been inconsistent with him too.

Eh, we're talking about taking 10-15 minutes from Starling and redistributing it. Giving 5-to-7 of those minutes to Anthony and 5-to-7 to Kingz doesn't seem impractical to me.

The ceiling of Kingz and Anthony is far higher than Starling. This team is already behind the 8-ball when it comes to making the tourney. At this point giving more minutes to guys with higher potential outcomes seems like the appropriate play to me.

Starling is a known commodity. He'll have a good game soon and there will be a bunch of "I told you so!" posts. Then the next game he'll be brutal. That's just who he is, and it won't get us to March.

 

[MikeSU02]

The problem is all of our guards are playing like guys who would ideally be 10-20 minute bench pieces. You can convince me that JJ is not good enough, you can't convince me that there is some guard on our roster clearly so much better that he deserves to take most of his mins. Kingz is the closest, but that is largely on his defense and he is also taking time at the small forward spot. His turnovers late against GT were just as big a reason for our blown lead as anything JJ did. Nobody is doing enough good things at guard to make JJ a 10 minute player. I am hoping Kiyan can be that guy down the road this season and agree he should play a little more, but it has been inconsistent with him too.

JJ has started 95 games in his career. He is who he is.

His PER this year is 10.8, lowest of anyone that plays real minutes. His TS% is 47% (which is abysmal) and the lowest of anyone that plays real minutes. His win shares per 40 is the lowest of anyone that plays real minutes. This last one includes defensive measurement.

The JJ experiment is over.

 

[IthacaMatt]

The JJ experiment is over.

It's not over until the end of the year. Get used to it.
Let's hope Kiyan gets going again, and then those minutes will get redistributed a bit.

 

[DoctahLexus]

Eh, we're talking about taking 10-15 minutes from Starling and redistributing it. Giving 5-to-7 of those minutes to Anthony and 5-to-7 to Kingz doesn't seem impractical to me.

The ceiling of Kingz and Anthony is far higher than Starling. This team is already behind the 8-ball when it comes to making the tourney. At this point giving more minutes to guys with higher potential outcomes seems like the appropriate play to me.

Starling is a known commodity. He'll have a good game soon and there will be a bunch of "I told you so!" posts. Then the next game he'll be brutal. That's just who he is, and it won't get us to March.

Would be totally fine with something like 5 from Kingz and 5 from Kiyan to have him more in the 20 range, especially when he is struggling. Beyond that I would need to see more from those guys in the present, not just play them way more because of their ceiling. Being behind the 8-ball for the tourney is exactly why I do not want to think too much about future potential. We need to win now, and I don't see any one guard as a one way ticket to winning now.

 

[eastcuse]

Eh, we're talking about taking 10-15 minutes from Starling and redistributing it. Giving 5-to-7 of those minutes to Anthony and 5-to-7 to Kingz doesn't seem impractical to me.

The ceiling of Kingz and Anthony is far higher than Starling. This team is already behind the 8-ball when it comes to making the tourney. At this point giving more minutes to guys with higher potential outcomes seems like the appropriate play to me.

Starling is a known commodity. He'll have a good game soon and there will be a bunch of "I told you so!" posts. Then the next game he'll be brutal. That's just who he is, and it won't get us to March.

I love Kingz, but he is already playing 30mpg and has the lowest points per 40 minutes (besides Souare). I don't really think this is Kingz fault, but with our ISO offense we need either JJ or Kiyan to force the issue sometimes. Ball handling is a huge issue as well. We really don't have an elite ball handler and JJ is technically our 2nd best option. Starling is an elite athlete that should be a net positive, it is up to Red to use his players in the best way.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I love Kingz, but he is already playing 30mpg and has the lowest points per 40 minutes (besides Souare). I don't really think this is Kingz fault, but with our ISO offense we need either JJ or Kiyan to force the issue sometimes. Ball handling is a huge issue as well. We really don't have an elite ball handler and JJ is technically our 2nd best option. Starling is an elite athlete that should be a net positive, it is up to Red to use his players in the best way.

This really isn't about Kingz although I think he deserves and can take a heavier load. It's about JJ and we have pieces to move other people around.

We get absolutely nothing from JJ’s ISO’s. Kingz has made 7 less 2's on than season than JJ on 35 less shot attempts. Kiyan is fine there and he's started to make his free throws.

There is some lineup change to be made. Put Betsey at the 3 and Kingz at the 2 if people don't want Kiyan too much. It's obvious who the weak link is in all our lineups.

 

[Orangezoo]

This really isn't about Kingz although I think he deserves and can take a heavier load. It's about JJ and we have pieces to move other people around.

We get absolutely nothing from JJ’s ISO’s though. Kingz has made 7 less 2's on than season than JJ on 35 less shot attempts. Kiyan is fine there and he's started to make his free throws.

There is some lineup change to be made. Put Betsey at the 3 and Kingz at the 2 if people don't want Kiyan too much. It's obvious who the weak link is in all our lineups.

Kingz at the 2, Betsey the 3 with Donnie and Kyle would be interesting to see for longer stretches. It should open more driving lanes or get Kingz some better looks where he likes to shoot from and same for Betsey. Then bring Kiyan and Sadiq as the first two subs using JJ and Souare in only short stints.

In terms of Kiyan being too much of a ball stopper maybe letting him be on ball in a backup PG role for short windows may help that. He is also adept at getting into the lane that it might work out better to keep his mindset more balanced.

 

[DoctahLexus]

Kingz at the 2, Betsey the 3 with Donnie and Kyle would be interesting to see for longer stretches. It should open more driving lanes or get Kingz some better looks where he likes to shoot from and same for Betsey. Then bring Kiyan and Sadiq as the first two subs using JJ and Souare in only short stints.

In terms of Kiyan being too much of a ball stopper maybe letting him be on ball in a backup PG role for short windows may help that. He is also adept at getting into the lane that it might work out better to keep his mindset more balanced.

Agree on the lineup you mention first, but JJ is more suited for backup pg than Kiyan. His passing has improved this year and he is better on defense. Also is more likely to get a step on his man in the lane with his speed. Kiyan is not a very willing passer at this stage.