Remember this game during the February slump

[moqui]

When we are asking questions like:
- why do we only have one guy who even attempts a three much less make one? (Because the only other two guys with any shot aren't allowed to make mistakes so are glued to the bench)
- why are we getting killed on the boards? (Silent g is going to get slaughtered playing the 3 in the ACC)
- why does our freshman point struggle so much? (His legs are gone from playing 35 minutes a game)
- why has Roberson not realized his obvious talent? (He is too tentative from getting the yank 2 minutes into a half)
- why do Syracuse teams peak in December? (They get worn out by playing too many minutes)
- why do we go through a slump every year towards the end that we very rarely recover from? (our HOF coach doesn't know how to develop a team... he'd rather rely on 5 or 6 players whom he can trust)

This team could have so much potential and have so many answers but we will never know because of one bad game against Cal. It's funny that we as fans are supposedly not allowed to make judgements based on one game but our HOF coach is allowed to determine a season's worth of minutes for a player based on one game.

brought to you by the Bureau of Future Crime

 

[OrangeFoo]

brought to you by the Bureau of Future Crime

I will bump this post at the end of February whether my predictions are true or not true. I've been watching Syracuse hoops for 30 years now... I am confident in my op.

 

[Dave85]

There is a very obvious flaw in those stats.. in ACC play Conney shot 31% om threes and his 2 point percentage was a scorching 35% for a grand total of 34% shooting. We are going nowhere in the ACC with a shooting guard who shoots less than 35% overall. If we dig in even deeper I bet Cooney's shooting looks even worse because he had a few really big games early in ACC play before falling completely off the table towards the end. Basically Cooney was a very good player at the beginning of last year and was a really bad player by the end of the year. This year he looks like a worse version of the player he was last year so I can only imagine what happens in the ACC. If Cooney doesn't improve we need to get another starting 2 guard for ACC play.

I think JB is asking too much of TC. I would like to see him split time with RP. With fresh legs TC will get better looks. When TC plays the entire game his shooting percentage will be less in my opinion. TC is not a five star elite SG. JB has to stop treating him like one. But JB is stubborn and will continue to play 6 or 7 guys the whole game the whole season until the wheels fall off the wagon.

 

[GonzoInMD]

At this point, without TC on the floor, what you'd have in the backcourt is a freshman and a guy (RP) who might was well be a freshman in terms of game experience. That's not JB's style, especially in a must-win game. Normally you would have Silent G eating up some of TC's minutes, but he's had to spend most of his time at the 3 because TR and BJ haven't come close to mastering the zone defense yet. There's a domino effect there.

 

[jordoo]

This thread is a real downer . . . . . . I like my downers best with alcohol so I guess I'll tip one back.

 

[KaiserUEO]

There is a very obvious flaw in those stats.. in ACC play Conney shot 31% om threes and his 2 point percentage was a scorching 35% for a grand total of 34% shooting. We are going nowhere in the ACC with a shooting guard who shoots less than 35% overall. If we dig in even deeper I bet Cooney's shooting looks even worse because he had a few really big games early in ACC play before falling completely off the table towards the end. Basically Cooney was a very good player at the beginning of last year and was a really bad player by the end of the year. This year he looks like a worse version of the player he was last year so I can only imagine what happens in the ACC. If Cooney doesn't improve we need to get another starting 2 guard for ACC play.

Well good lord...just imagine frick & frack and whatever other useless benchwarmer we run out there would shoot???

 

[OrangeFoo]

Well good lord...just imagine frick & frack and whatever other useless benchwarmer we run out there would shoot???

That's thd point... No other bench player is allowed to play through his mistakes so we'll never know.

 

[Jamesvillecuse]

so JB has been watching SU hoops for 50 years does that mean he trumps your 30?

 

[CusefanATL]

I do agree that there is no reason BJ shouldn't get in the game. Cooney is the furthest thing from irreplaceable that we've got. It's pretty amazing that he needs to play 40 minutes a game. I would like for someone to explain to me how him playing 10 minutes would have equated to a loss? I mean this isn't CJ Fair, or Tyler Ennis who can't come out of the game. This is Trevor Cooney, and Kaleb Joseph.

"Cooney is the farthest thing from irreplaceable that we've got"

He is 1 of our best all around players, sometimes the best. Why the hell do most people on here hate him so much? He shot better last year than Andy did in all but 1 season - and Cooney is a much better athlete and as good of a ball handler and defender as Andy. not the passer that Andy was. Andy never took this kind of abuse.

Don't quote me on this, but he shot better than Gerry did in all 4 of his seasons.

And Cooney is the only 1 of the 3 who is a consistent threat to score a 2 point basket out of the 3 of them.

 

[rrlbees]

Yes, I don't get why 40% should be the magic number. For instance if you shoot 100 2 point shots and hit 50% of them you score 100 points. If you shoot 100 3 point shots and make 35% of them you have scored 105 points. Not to mention that you give your team 15 more opportunities to get an offensive rebound. Just saying.

So many don't understand those numbers. 33% from 3 equals 50% from 2. If a non center made 50% of their 2's we'd think that was pretty good. Plus as you said, while we get the same number of points on fewer makes, those extra shots that were missed can become offensive rebounds. 33.3% from 3 > 50% from 2. Of course 40%+ from 3 is outstanding, but 33% is acceptable.

 

[jekelish]

That's thd point... No other bench player is allowed to play through his mistakes so we'll never know.

Really? We don't know well enough after 56 combined three point attempts by Buss and BJ, and a combined percentage of 23.2% in their first season and change, to know that they aren't the answer right now from a shooting perspective? Seriously?

This season, BJ has the second most three point attempts, and Buss has the fourth most, so don't give me the whole "they don't get a chance" thing, either. They've gone a combined 5-of-21 through four games (23.8%). Again I ask, how is this not a big enough sample size, particularly when adding in that they are liabilities in other areas and therefore have not earned more PT at this point?

People are blinded by their Cooney hate, and are ignoring the fact that BJ and Buss have not exactly been tearing it up. By the way, Buss is currently shooting 15% from the field. FIFTEEN. PERCENT. Meanwhile, against Hampton and Cal, BJ was a combined 2-for-15 from the field and was lost defensively.

But yes, let's keep hammering away at Cooney and saying that Buss should be getting his minutes. I'm so sorry that statistical facts are getting in the way of people's desire to see Cooney banished from the city of Syracuse.

 

[pfister1]

You can complain about the BJs and patterson of the world not getting minutes but boeheim always plays to win the game. If BJ and patterson got their minutes this game we probably would have lost. I'm all for developing players but it doesn't mean squat when you are playing in the NIT in March. We need wins. Rant over.

This is so cliche, it's said over and over and over. The guys who could not be substituted for coughed up the 15 point lead and almost gave the secured win away. Inserting Johnson or Patterson back into the game in the second half and giving them another chance do something to help the team would have led to a worse result than giving up a 15 point lead? Maybe, but I guess I would be willing to see that result because the guys in the game weren't getting it done.

 

[pfister1]

"Two other guys who can make shots."

Says who? We have zero evidence that Patterson or Johnson can consistently make three pointers in actual game situations, against even decent competition. I love the whole "the guys on the bench are being wasted!" argument, it's like how the backup QB is always the most popular player on a football team.

Look - I think that BJ is going to be a solid player, and Buss will be fine as well...but they've looked pretty mediocre against actual competition. And BJ couldn't get in yesterday because he's simply lost on the back line of the zone right now.

There's ZERO EVIDENCE that anyone else can make threes in a game, yet people are going on and on about how good BJ and Buss are as three point shooters despite all signs pointing, right now at least, to the contrary.

I think you mischaracterize the argument. Most people aren't arguing that the guys on the bench are better than the guys who are starting. I think what is being said is that the play from the starters is so inconsistent or uneven that it would be worthwhile to invest some additional time in seeing what the bench players can give us so that when we get to the lose and your out game, we might have alternatives with some confidence to turn to if the starter(s) is having a down game.

 

[Alsacs]

Really? We don't know well enough after 56 combined three point attempts by Buss and BJ, and a combined percentage of 23.2% in their first season and change, to know that they aren't the answer right now from a shooting perspective? Seriously?

This season, BJ has the second most three point attempts, and Buss has the fourth most, so don't give me the whole "they don't get a chance" thing, either. They've gone a combined 5-of-21 through four games (23.8%). Again I ask, how is this not a big enough sample size, particularly when adding in that they are liabilities in other areas and therefore have not earned more PT at this point?

People are blinded by their Cooney hate, and are ignoring the fact that BJ and Buss have not exactly been tearing it up. By the way, Buss is currently shooting 15% from the field. FIFTEEN. PERCENT. Meanwhile, against Hampton and Cal, BJ was a combined 2-for-15 from the field and was lost defensively.

But yes, let's keep hammering away at Cooney and saying that Buss should be getting his minutes. I'm so sorry that statistical facts are getting in the way of people's desire to see Cooney banished from the city of Syracuse.

All I can say to this is wow. You are entitled to your opinion, but I mean legitimate debate is dead.
Patterson has played 23, 4, 10, 3= 10 MPG

Cooney has played 33, 36, 32, 40= 35.5 MPG

So this small sample size is your proof. Nobody wants Cooney banished if we was treated like Roberson, Gbinije I think that is fair. The kid should be playing the lion's share of the minutes of high 20/low 30 mpg but NOT mid to high 30's.

 

[jekelish]

All I can say to this is wow. You are entitled to your opinion, but I mean legitimate debate is dead.
Patterson has played 23, 4, 10, 3= 10 MPG

Cooney has played 33, 36, 32, 40= 35.5 MPG

So this small sample size is your proof. Nobody wants Cooney banished if we was treated like Roberson, Gbinije I think that is fair. The kid should be playing the lion's share of the minutes of high 20/low 30 mpg but NOT mid to high 30's.

Do you know why Cooney is getting that many more minutes than Buss? Because Buss hasn't shown he should get more. Cooney is our best option, and Boeheim is going to play the guys he trusts. Why is this surprising to anyone?

The only person who should legitimately be taking some of those 2G minutes right now is Gbinije, but he's our backup at PG and SF, as well. He simply can't be everywhere at once. And BJ can't take the backup SF minutes right now because he's too much of a defensive liability.

 

[Alsacs]

I think you mischaracterize the argument. Most people aren't arguing that the guys on the bench are better than the guys who are starting. I think what is being said is that the play from the starters is so inconsistent or uneven that wouldn't be worthwhile to investing some time in seeing what the bench players can give us so that when we get to the lose and your out game, we might have alternatives with some confidence to turn to if the starter(s) is having a down game.

I mean thank you. People aren't saying(me anyway) bench Cooney completely. Give him 29 mpg instead of 35mpg so if he struggles in conference play you aren't stuck with Mike G as your only guard to play with to Joseph.

I swear Cooney has become the Tea Party on this board anyone who doesn't blindly defend him is lumped with the outliers who don't think he is a D-1 player. The kid is a decent player he is not an all-conference guy who should be expected to carry the team. All I want is for the kid to be treated like the other players, but he is given way more rope than others.

 

[Alsacs]

Do you know why Cooney is getting that many more minutes than Buss? Because Buss hasn't shown he should get more. Cooney is our best option, and Boeheim is going to play the guys he trusts. Why is this surprising to anyone?

Are you JB or at practice? Is this all reasonable opinion. I get killed when I say reasonable opinion. Boeheim trusts him and look at our offense. It is not good enough for him to trust anybody outside of Christmas. Cooney should be the starter, but these games should be used to see what we actually have and not life or death.

I understand the Iowa game as I have said JB wanted that game badly to salvage 1-1 in MSG for the NCAA berth, but if these kids on the bench don't get minutes in the teens we are screwed come conference play as all our eggs will be in Joseph/Cooney/Gbinjie and that screams a long year.

 

[jekelish]

I mean thank you. People aren't saying(me anyway) bench Cooney completely. Give him 29 mpg instead of 35mpg so if he struggles in conference play you aren't stuck with Mike G as your only guard to play with to Joseph.

I swear Cooney has become the Tea Party on this board anyone who doesn't blindly defend him is lumped with the outliers who don't think he is a D-1 player. The kid is a decent player he is not an all-conference guy who should be expected to carry the team. All I want is for the kid to be treated like the other players, but he is given way more rope than others.

I've criticized Cooney plenty. His mechanics are all screwed up, and his shooting has been tremendously disappointing. Trust me, I don't blindly defend the kid. The only time I actually defend him is when people come on the board talking about how much he sucks and that he shouldn't be playing (and you know as well as I do, there are people who say that every time he misses a three - not saying you're one of them, but you know those people exist). I just get sick of the constant bashing, as with people saying that our perimeter struggles against Cal were entirely his fault, as one poster said in another thread.

 

[jekelish]

Are you JB or at practice? Is this all reasonable opinion. I get killed when I say reasonable opinion. Boeheim trusts him and look at our offense. It is good enough for him to trust anybody outside of Christmas. Cooney should be the starter, but these games should be used to see what we actually have and not life or death. I understand the Iowa game as I have said JB wanted that game badly to salvage 1-1 in MSG for the NCAA berth, but if these kids on the bench don't get minutes in the teens we are screwed come conference play as all our eggs will be in Joseph/Cooney/Gbinjie and that screams a long year.

But here's the thing - maybe Boeheim, in practice, sees that those bench guys just, simply, are not good enough? That idea has to at least be entertained. He might want to play more guys, but he knows what they are and that they won't be able to help right now?

 

[SWC75]

So many don't understand those numbers. 33% from 3 equals 50% from 2. If a non center made 50% of their 2's we'd think that was pretty good. Plus as you said, while we get the same number of points on fewer makes, those extra shots that were missed can become offensive rebounds. 33.3% from 3 > 50% from 2. Of course 40%+ from 3 is outstanding, but 33% is acceptable.

Except if you hit 33% you are creating more rebounds and the defensive team will get more rebounds on that end than the offense. I'm not sure what the conversion would be but I think you need to hit a bit higher than 33% to be the equivalent of shooting 50% inside the arc.

 

[rrlbees]

The kid should be playing the lion's share of the minutes of high 20/low 30 mpg but NOT mid to high 30's.

Obviously JB disagrees but the kid is much more than just the designated 3 point shooter. Many probably don't even realize he is the on court leader which is needed with such a young team. Watch who is the vocal leader and who also gathers the players together on the court after a timeout. I imagine he is a steadying influence.

 

[jekelish]

I get fired up sometimes and write things. This sums up my take on the Cooney issue: http://.com/the-case-for-trevor-cooney/

I'm not a Cooney apologist by any stretch. I recognize his flaws, and get frustrated by his regression as a shooter. But man, I just don't get the relentless hate he gets from some people so yes, I'll defend him when he's continually attacked more than every other player on the team combined.

 

[two3zone]

Last game I saw Joseph drive with the ball at two defenders with Cooney having a little space outside the three point line on the wing. One defender went right to Cooney giving Joseph an easy layup.

That easy layup does not happen with anybody on the floor in Cooney's spot. Everybody needs to stop being so blind about Cooney, he is probably the second or third most important player on this team and to our success this season.

There are other players that deserve criticism that don't get it, why pile up on Trevor?

 

[jekelish]

There are other players that deserve criticism that don't get it, why pile up on Trevor?

That's my biggest problem here. Trevor CLEARLY has some serious issues going on with his shot. I'm perfectly fine with criticizing his regression, the flaws in his mechanics, etc...but he gets BY FAR more hate than anyone else, and I just don't get that. He's not solely to blame for our offensive struggles, despite what some people have been suggesting.

 

[two3zone]

That's my biggest problem here. Trevor CLEARLY has some serious issues going on with his shot. I'm perfectly fine with criticizing his regression, the flaws in his mechanics, etc...but he gets BY FAR more hate than anyone else, and I just don't get that. He's not solely to blame for our offensive struggles, despite what some people have been suggesting.

Tell me about it, realistically outside of Rak and McCullough nobody had really done anything, if anything Cooney had been our third best player on offense.

That said, I'd rather see Cooney jack a three up than Roberson take a 12 footer.