Rich get Richer...Ingram to Duke

[SoBeCuse]

Nobody criticizes K, everybody criticizes Cal (Media and fans). What is the difference?!

You're right but none of them should be criticized, imo.

 

[SBU72]

Funny, if this is Kentucky everyone is up in arms because it's Cal. Media and Fans included. When coach k recruits OAD's, he's a model citizen. Seems hypocritical to me.

Except Cal has a "history" where schools he was previously at were caught cheating (there for he should have been caught?) where as Coach K & Duke have a sterling public / NCAA record.

 

[SBU72]

I don't know if it's all good ... JAB might be following the same trail if he's limited to 10 scholarship players for his last three years. He may say -it and just start picking up top-20 prospects, hiring new assistants, cashing in favors with local car dealerships again, having World Wide Wes hang out at practices, etc.

I do think there's a lot of shady stuff that happens with top-50 prospects, probably more with some and less with others. But if a university suddenly starts hauling in top-5 classes every year, then there has to be more to it than the coach is just a really charming fellow.

You just don't wake up one morning and decide to "pick up" top 20 recruits, especially when you have a 3 year time limit. 15-16 is done. 16-17 is possible and 17-18 becomes questionable because will he/won't he leave before that season.

edit: actually 16-17 may be closed out to with schollie limit if Battle accepts. So the boat is pretty much out to sea for JB to go all OND.

 

[Fly Rodder]

You just don't wake up one morning and decide to "pick up" top 20 recruits

Eh, you can when you're willing to take chances on headaches, do shady things to get it done, or have other ins through whatever practices. Sean Miller locked down a top-10 class three months after he was hired at Arizona. SU could have had Isaiah Whitehead if they wanted to give Tiny Morton a job. These national commits are usually late commits for one reason or another. There's more to their recruitment than seeing if they like the campus or one pizza shop over another. If a program wants to focus on them, consequences be damned, they can get them.

And 2016 is going to be more than just Moyer and a G (Battle or otherwise). SU is already in with Kobi Simmons (top-5 2016 from GA of all places) a couple of centers/PFs and Harry Giles (please please please), and they're looking at a lot of top-25 talent in 2017.

 

[73CAV]

In case no one has noticed, there has been a paradigm shift in the world of recruiting. Among other things, Duke was recruiting elite talent long before Krzyzewski arrived in Durham. (Bubbas had them in the Final Four in '63, '64, & '66.) However, when players were staying four years, it was difficult to recruit an elite athlete to play behind them. Playing time then, like now, was a consideration. (Does anyone imagine Kentucky could have signed their '14 class if it was known on signing day how many of the '13 recruits would return for another year?) The end result was that elite recruits were distributed among far more programs than we see now. Also, the temptation to transfer may have been present in the past, but players did not act on it as they do now. So, Duke is recruiting elite talent, but they're either leaving for the NBA after a year, or transferring elsewhere for playing time. This means that Krzyzewski has to repeat the process every year. In today's world of recruiting, once you start down that road, you're pretty much stuck to it. Some programs can do this. Some can't. And, there are other risks. Freshmen are freshmen. Recruiting is a crap shoot, even when they are McDonald All Americans. Programs that can recruit well, and maintain some sort of continuity can compete (and win) against the Dukes and Kentuckys of the world.

One of the things I've noticed is that to maintain any degree of excellence, a coach cannot afford to pocket any scholarships for future use. There is going to be attrition, so he better have a full roster. A good player who has been in a program for two years is typically as important as that blue chip recruit over whom everyone fawns. Development is the key, though. Without it, injuries, transfers, and early exits for the draft will set a program back to the point of mediocrity. Jamie Dixon is a good coach, but all the Pitt fans are bemoaning his recruiting. His recruiting in past years would have been adequate, however, today, it doesn't keep up with the attrition the program has suffered. He's losing talent faster than he's replacing it. And, IMO, this is going to be Boeheim's challenge. With only ten grants to use, can he contain the attrition enough to maintain any sort of continuity on the team? His margin of error is going to be very slim for the next few years.

 

[orangecuse]

Some, but the last few seasons he's been going all in. It used to be none, then 1 per year, now it's 2-3. Duke was a program built on talented 4-year guys. Now K has kinda eschewed that strategy for NBA talent. He's going to out-Calipari Calipari.

Duke being a program built on talented 4 years guys was the climate of the times...today a vast majority of those guys would've been one and dones. Those players of yesteryear that made Duke a powerhouse were all Mickey D kids, just as they're today. Duke/K hasn't changed his style/philosophy one bit, they've gone and have gotten the best of the best for years. Maybe the past couple of years K has hit the high(er) end of that cycle, but nothing has changed. Duke is Duke! And, nothing has or will change while K is there ...

 

[SBU72]

Eh, you can when you're willing to take chances on headaches, do shady things to get it done, or have other ins through whatever practices. Sean Miller locked down a top-10 class three months after he was hired at Arizona. SU could have had Isaiah Whitehead if they wanted to give Tiny Morton a job. These national commits are usually late commits for one reason or another. There's more to their recruitment than seeing if they like the campus or one pizza shop over another. If a program wants to focus on them, consequences be damned, they can get them.
And 2016 is going to be more than just Moyer and a G (Battle or otherwise). SU is already in with Kobi Simmons (top-5 2016 from GA of all places) a couple of centers/PFs and Harry Giles (please please please), and they're looking at a lot of top-25 talent in 2017.

How do you figure that 2016 is going to be more than Moyer and Battle. Unless somebody else leaves other than the 2 graduating, or the NCAA reduces the roster limits, SU can't take any more than 2 for the 16-17 season.

 

[TinyManInside]

JB and our fan base would take pretty much any one-and-done if they wanted to come here. SU recruits pretty much the same players except for most of the CHI kids or deep south/TX/Plains kids. I have never once criticized Coach K or Cal for using the system to their advantage. They are very good coaches as well. We just have a very jealous fan base and will rip anybody who does it better than SU.

truth

 

[triplethrea]

We get good players. The last 3 recruiting cycles, Duke has been getting great players.

And that's the problem. There's only 1 national championship winner every year. Good is no longer good enough. Our 2-3 year program guys aren't doing it anymore since they leave sooner than expected. Until rules are changed, we need to get on the 1 and done bandwagon and start planning for players leaving early. Otherwise our two year guys play worse than the other 1 and dones and leave after 1 year anyway. There's no benefit. And I'm sick of whining about Ennis and Grant leaving early and then having to settle for a bottom ACC team since we "weren't prepared". Recruit great players and prepare yourself to lose them. No surprises.

I look at the top ten recruits and see them committing to Marquette, Miss St, Maryland. We can't get in on that? Why not go all in on guys like Diallo. Why are we bowing out just because everyone else is involved. We have a major x factor in Hopkins. We need to milk his recruiting skills for all it's got.

 

[jordoo]

How do you figure that 2016 is going to be more than Moyer and Battle. Unless somebody else leaves other than the 2 graduating, or the NCAA reduces the roster limits, SU can't take any more than 2 for the 16-17 season.

I think it winds up being at least 3 and likely 4. Even without and NCAA relief from the appeal we are only scheduled to have 8 returning players and someone is always leaving early it seems.

 

[Orangezoo]

Funny, if this is Kentucky everyone is up in arms because it's Cal. Media and Fans included. When coach k recruits OAD's, he's a model citizen. Seems hypocritical to me.

UMASS, Memphis and then all the events early in his career at UK are what spark this. I get what you are pointing at but it only works in the vacuum of K vs Cal. Bill Self reels in OADS all the time as well. It is not an even comparison given the historical context. Add to that you have a near lifer at Duke in K vs Cal who has jumped around ( at convenient times but somehow that is just poetic coincidence). I don't get the support for Calipari or how your comment holds any water for the responses on this board. ( not picking on you just this sentiment in general).

So with that said, If Calipari didn't have the unavoidable historical issues then there is very little comparison to be had and these threads would have never come up. How do we not use that historical knowledge when looking at Cal vs other coaches who go after OAD's on similarly consistent basis? What is the honest argument that gives Cal an implied respect he doesn't deserve and that other coaches have earned? All I see are those who try to implant some sort of "high road" rhetoric into these conversations and yet there is nothing but stating the disdain is overplayed with little to support the other side. If you think he doesn't deserve all the negative opinion then why? What has he done to be looked at through a neutral lens?

 

[IthacaMatt]

Seriously. I don't know. Good question. Exclusively zone? Boeheim not really a 'teacher' per se and more of a pro/NBA type coach. I don't know.

We play a pro style offense. That's a big draw.

 

[Jack Hall]

They got pissed after no championships for a while and made grades a non-issue for admission

And keeping an alleged rapist on the team for a year. But i guess k should get bonus pts for booting him when a duke employee threatened to make a stink about it (of course when k booted him magicaly it had nothing to do w the rape allegations it was based purely on other vague transgressions when he did not live up to duks extremely high standards- the unfortunate rape controversy must have been a bizarre coincidence)....

 

[Jack Hall]

well said

You guys sound like you are not too fond of or impressed with the SU fan base. If true- Good luck w that.

 

[SBU72]

I think it winds up being at least 3 and likely 4. Even without and NCAA relief from the appeal we are only scheduled to have 8 returning players and someone is always leaving early it seems.

Who among the those returning next year would leave early? None of the freshmen appear to be OND. Coleman will be a 5th yr senior in 16-17 but unless he has an unexpected stellar year, he ain't leaving. Obokoh could leave for lack of playing time but he would have no eligibility if he tried to go to another D1 school. the high odds are that only 2 recruits can come in next year without NCAA sanction relief.

 

[jordoo]

Who among the those returning next year would leave early? None of the freshmen appear to be OND. Coleman will be a 5th yr senior in 16-17 but unless he has an unexpected stellar year, he ain't leaving. Obokoh could leave for lack of playing time but he would have no eligibility if he tried to go to another D1 school. the high odds are that only 2 recruits can come in next year without NCAA sanction relief.

Transfers, leaving early while the knee is healthy, leaving early for D league or NBA and of course scholarship relief from the appeal. Take your pick mix and match double down whatever you want. Its highly likely more ships will open up it happens every year. Not many could have figured we would be at 10 for this season but we are.