San Diego State vs Wichita State for a 1 seed | Syracusefan.com

San Diego State vs Wichita State for a 1 seed

Alsacs

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How Wichita State gets all this respect for a 1 seed, when they are undefeated just boggles my mind.
I mean Wichita State is 24-0 and is a good team, but their best wins @St. Louis, @Indiana State, Tennessee, @Alabama, DePaul/BYU neutral floor wins. This resume is NOT better than freaking San Diego State who is 20-1 in the decent MWC. MWC still has New Mexico, UNLV, Boise State, Utah State which are all solid teams that have made the NCAA Tournament as at-large teams. San Diego State was a 2 seed in 2011 tournament, and while Wichita State made the Final Four last year and played Louisville tough that isn't enough for them to get a 1 seed. San Diego State has 1 loss to #2 Arizona and if losing to Arizona is the only reason Wichita State is above San Diego State then scheduling is a joke. Wichita State's resume is not even worthy of being in the discussion for a 1 seed. If Wichita State ends up on the 1 line I NEVER want to hear the committee say who did you play because it will be BS. I bet Wichita State wishes they could get better teams home/home, but they should have played neutral site games and got better teams. I am sure Kansas would have played them instead of New Mexico in Kansas City if the Shockers wouldn't expect a home game like the Lobos aren't expecting. Murray State in 2012 went 30-1 in the regular season/post season tournament and got a 6 seed. That Murray State team won @top 25 Memphis and won the Alaska Shootout and won at UAB and Southern Miss. However, they weren't even worthy of a 1 seed. Memphis = St. Louis and I don't think Alabama, Tennessee, DePaul, BYU should move them up to being in discussion for a 1 seed.

San Diego State has beaten Creighton, Marquette, Washington, @Kansas, and their conference rivals who are decent for a non-power 5 league. San Diego State if they are within 1 loss of Wichita State should be a higher seed in the NCAA Tournament.
 
It's way too early for bunched panties, but...

Strength of Schedule

Wichita State - #81
San Diego State - #88
Syracuse - #71

Not that much difference between all three teams.
 
It's way too early for bunched panties, but...

Strength of Schedule

Wichita State - #81
San Diego State - #88
Syracuse - #71

Not that much difference between all three teams.
SOS is not indicative if you have played people. Syracuse's SOS is dragged down by playing High Point, Cornell and other really bad teams.

San Diego State SOS is dragged down by games against San Diego Christian, Southern Utah, and St. Katherine. They played people and play in a decent conference. San Diego State's resume is WAY BETTER than Wichita State's which is point. The reason SDSU is considered only 20-1 is because of these games not counting in the wins, but in their SOS.
 
Whether it should matter this year or not, Wichita State has last year's Final Four going for them when it comes time to pick seedings.
 
Question along these lines...when the committee looks at Top50 RPI wins is it the RPI that a team finished with or the RPI at the time they played?
 
San Diego State has 1 loss to #2 Arizona and if losing to Arizona is the only reason Wichita State is above San Diego State then scheduling is a joke.

That's fair but those decent conference teams you mention really are not very good. New Mex, Boise & UNLV are all about the same or worse than BYU per Kenpom. Utah St isn't even in the top 100. Washington stinks.
Tennessee is better than all of those teams. As is St. Louis obviously.

The gist of the SDSU case needs to just be that 2-1 vs Creighton/Kansas/Arizona is a whole lot better than 0-0. All of this other stuff makes you sound like an odd Aztec homer.
 
themorey said:
Question along these lines...when the committee looks at Top50 RPI wins is it the RPI that a team finished with or the RPI at the time they played?

Finished
 
SOS is not indicative if you have played people. Syracuse's SOS is dragged down by playing High Point, Cornell and other really bad teams.

San Diego State SOS is dragged down by games against San Diego Christian, Southern Utah, and St. Katherine. They played people and play in a decent conference. San Diego State's resume is WAY BETTER than Wichita State's which is point. The reason SDSU is considered only 20-1 is because of these games not counting in the wins, but in their SOS.

and not playing very many top 50 teams
 
Some have said this years Witchita State team is better then last years.

I don't think Witchita deserves a one though. Give them a two so they end up playing a 3 instead of a 4 in the sweet 16. Their schedule is to weak.
 
SOS is not indicative if you have played people. Syracuse's SOS is dragged down by playing High Point, Cornell and other really bad teams.

San Diego State SOS is dragged down by games against San Diego Christian, Southern Utah, and St. Katherine. They played people and play in a decent conference. San Diego State's resume is WAY BETTER than Wichita State's which is point. The reason SDSU is considered only 20-1 is because of these games not counting in the wins, but in their SOS.

I believe two of those three teams are not D1 schools and hence have no impact on the SOS or RPI.

I am not as high as you on the San Diego St, because the MWC is not that good. In the past few years, half the teams in the league were in tourney contention -- and it was a smaller league (9 or 10 teams). This is no longer the old MWC. It is now a 11 team league, and only 2 teams are in, and 1 is a bubble team. The rest of the teams are fluff. Utah, BYU have left. Tourney teams in the past 5 years - UNLV, Wyoming, Colorado St, Utah St are all mediocre. I

Its better, but its really not much more challenging then the MVC. Indiana St is about the same as Boise St. The only difference in terms of real threats is that the MWC has New Mexico. So San Diego St may play 2 more tough games over their schedule than MVC. MVC has a few more 200+ RPI teams - but teams that want top 3 seeds should be running through all teams below 100. So if a team has a few more 100 level teams, its not difference maker.

San Diego St has a slightly better resume than Wichita St. But neither will really accomplish much this year. If Wichita St goes undefeated it is ahead of SDSU - it may not be a purely rational decision.

I also think if Kansas takes a few more unexpected knocks on the B12, we could run into a situation where both are #1 seeds.
 
SOS is not indicative if you have played people. Syracuse's SOS is dragged down by playing High Point, Cornell and other really bad teams.

San Diego State SOS is dragged down by games against San Diego Christian, Southern Utah, and St. Katherine. They played people and play in a decent conference. San Diego State's resume is WAY BETTER than Wichita State's which is point. The reason SDSU is considered only 20-1 is because of these games not counting in the wins, but in their SOS.
That is the genius behind the MWC conference scheduling San Diego Christian and St. Katherine They are not D1 schools, they do not count in SOS. Our game against Cornell hurts us infinitely more than their games against 2 D2 schools. That's why the whole MWC was a seed line or 2 higher than they should have been last year (and why BSU was in the tourney at all). Everyone in the conference plays 2 games against D2 schools. It's a genius move and a joke at the same time.
 
If you criticize a mid major's schedule and claim they haven't played anyone the PC crowd will immediately get the tar and feathers out for you so be careful. How does a team that hasn't played one ranked team (SLU wasn't ranked at the time) get a # 1 seed? Wichita St. is a unique situation. And it's not just because they are undefeated. (Remember Murray State 2 years ago, nobody was giving them a #1 seed). It's because WS was a Final Four team last year. So they proved they're legit last year.
 
How does a team that hasn't played one ranked team (SLU wasn't ranked at the time)

I never understood this theory of considering rankings at the time the teams played as more relevant. This is especially true in November and December when half the top 25 is significantly over-ranked or under-ranked in comparison to where they will be by the end of the season. The ranking at that time is not an indicator of a team trending and playing well at the time -- it is a ranking based on incomplete info.

The committee will look at St. Louis as the same team, whether you played them in November or February. If they are top 25 on the s-curve at year end, its a top 25 win.

Not going to argue that Wichita St has played a great schedule or a number of great teams. They definitely have not. But at St. Louis was a good win-- call me the PC police for labelling one win as good or for correcting you on how the committee views a win (year-end standing).
 
Whicita can't help their conf SOS, gotta play who's on the schedule. FF last year means no power schools would play them non-conf. They look like a top ten team so until they lose you have to treat them same as anyone else in the polls.

First loss they drop back to 7 - 10, 2nd loss to 15, lose 2 and the conf tourney maybe the 8-9 game.
 
At the end of the day, #1 seeds instead of a 2 or a 3. It is true that 14/15 seed provides much more risk than a 16. But after the first round the competitive level of opponents is not going to be much different, because tourney will never play to total chalk. It will be more about matchups.

But whether it matters on the floor is irrelevant - its like an AP rank. There is an allure to a #1 seed or a #1 AP ranking, that will always make it meaningful to many fans.
 
Whicita can't help their conf SOS, gotta play who's on the schedule. FF last year means no power schools would play them non-conf. They look like a top ten team so until they lose you have to treat them same as anyone else in the polls.

First loss they drop back to 7 - 10, 2nd loss to 15, lose 2 and the conf tourney maybe the 8-9 game.
I don't know how true that is.

WSU knew they had a good team this year, and they knew their conference was a joke. I find it very hard to believe that they couldn't have gotten a game at duke or at Kansas or at unc or at any 1 of 25 name schools. Kansas played sdsu at home, so it's clear some big guy will schedule a strong team from a mid major conference if its a one off on their home floor.

This is not the season for wsu to get high and mighty about home and homes. They needed a game that could justify their ranking, and they never scheduled one. If it hurts them, it's their own fault.
 
Wichita isn't falling back to 7 seed or lower. If they lose 2 or 3 until tourney they will likely be in 3-4 seed range
 
I don't know how true that is.

WSU knew they had a good team this year, and they knew their conference was a joke. I find it very hard to believe that they couldn't have gotten a game at duke or at Kansas or at unc or at any 1 of 25 name schools. Kansas played sdsu at home, so it's clear some big guy will schedule a strong team from a mid major conference if its a one off on their home floor.

This is not the season for wsu to get high and mighty about home and homes. They needed a game that could justify their ranking, and they never scheduled one. If it hurts them, it's their own fault.

You need to remember that Wichita St is probably building a schedule to have a resume to get in the tournament, not to fight for a #1 seed. Its not about getting high and mighty. Sure, it would have been fine this year when they are a very good team ... but they probably did not know that when they were making the schedule. And to be honest they will probably not even whine if they do not get a #1.

OOC games are critical for teams from non power conferences. And playing a bunch on the road is not going to do you any good. Remember road games are 7 point swings from home games, and committee focuses on quality W's.

If they are an 8 seed to bubble level team talent wise, playing almost all their key OOC games on the road, they are putting themselves at an even bigger disadvantage to BCS schools with similar talent on Selection Sunday. Remember BCS schools get half their key conference games at home, and are often successful in using their power to draw legit non power teams in home only games. They are clearly at a huge advantage in terms of top 50 winning %, and top 50 wins. A team like Wichita St needs to ensure they have an adequate balance of home and neutral games to put themselves on a more level playing field on Selection Sunday. Sweeping St. Louis, Tennessee and BYU doesn't look good for an MVC team fighting for a #1 seed. But winning 2 of those 3 games looks great for a team on the bubble.

Wichita St is also hurt a bit by the fact that the MVC is weaker this year. Creighton left fairly suddenly, perhaps after schedule was completed. Its a conference that I think has had 3 teams in the tourney fairly frequently (perhaps even 4 once), but there is no second player this year.

Also, Kansas refuses to play Wichita St. Some state legislator made news recently by raising a bill demanding that Kansas plays Wichita St. What a waste of government time.
 
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If you criticize a mid major's schedule and claim they haven't played anyone the PC crowd will immediately get the tar and feathers out for you so be careful. How does a team that hasn't played one ranked team (SLU wasn't ranked at the time) get a # 1 seed? Wichita St. is a unique situation. And it's not just because they are undefeated. (Remember Murray State 2 years ago, nobody was giving them a #1 seed). It's because WS was a Final Four team last year. So they proved they're legit last year.

They sure did. Louisville was damn lucky to get past them. With this years rules, WSU wins that game...
 
Strength of Schedule is silly. Is there that big a difference between a ~300 RPI win and a ~200 RPI win? Not really on the court, but it matters greatly in the RPI.
 
It's way too early for bunched panties, but...

Strength of Schedule

Wichita State - #81
San Diego State - #88
Syracuse - #71

Not that much difference between all three teams.

I disagree. IMO, there's a huge difference between SOS and resume.
 
Wichita isn't falling back to 7 seed or lower. If they lose 2 or 3 until tourney they will likely be in 3-4 seed range

Wichita finished the regular season 26-8 last year; they were in the 8-9 game. I get that the Valley was stronger cause Creighton was in it, but I agree, basically impossible they are a 7 or something.
 
They sure did. Louisville was damn lucky to get past them. With this years rules, WSU wins that game...

they don't enforce them now, no way they will start calling them again in the tournament
 

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