Season was a failure

[IthacaMatt]

This is where I'm most discouraged. On the whole, we played pretty good defense this year, at least from a technical standpoint (yeah, Buddy's slow, but everyone else was decent). But it wasn't effective. Teams shoot too well and reverse the ball too fast. This is a problem going forward. Because guess what? With two new guards up top and a new center, our zone is most definitely going to be worse next season.

I think this discussion is making the rounds today among Syracuse fans.
Has the zone passed its "Sell By" date?

As you said, Otto, shooting threes is not that unusual anymore, and everybody seems to have several players now who can hit them (even us).

Everybody focuses on the three and the dunk these days, going back to high school. It seems like there are no other shots anymore (Tyus' outstanding mid-range game being a throwback of sorts ...)

How to attack zones is well understood now (penetrate, make the zone collapse, kick to weak side or corner shooters, who tend to have wide open shots). Many more teams play some zone, so it is not the tactical advantage that it used to be. Teams practice against it more often.

Kenny Anderson made an interesting point last night at halftime - shooting against a zone is easier, because the defender is running at you. Once you put the visual out of your head, it's easier to get the shot off, and the defender running at you almost creates the rhythm for your shot. He said it's much harder to get a shot off when the defender is right up against you, instead of closing from 6-10 feet away, and you know, as much as I hate having these NBA guys call a college game, I think he's right about that observation.

And then, we fail to do the one thing you have to do in a zone, which is box out; plus, we don't do the one thing that the zone is really good for, which is set you up to run the fast break.

We teach the interior passing angles very well, which is why we are still great at generating turnovers out of the zone. But if you don't run, as a general rule, and you don't trap that often, just to take advantage of the element of surprise to make the zone less predictable, then you're not playing all the cards in your hand.

One final comment - when was the last time we made really good adjustments at halftime? Yes, against Duke we collapsed the zone to double Zion every time he was on the ball side of the offense. But usually, opposing coaches reinforce their concepts about attacking the zone at halftime, and that is also a factor in our 2nd half collapses against the better teams.

 

[rackman18]

No way. Next year will be his last though. He wasn’t supposed to be a three year guy.

He better spend the summer doing lay ups. I never in my life seen a player miss as many lay ups as he did.

 

[44cuse]

Well, I believe this is my post that you responded to originally:

"Just as important, the myth that the tournament will make everything OK has been blown up."

So, I thought in saying "nope" to that, you meant you disagreed with it.

I mean exactly what I have always said about this board: the justifications and rose colored glasses will never go away. It’s a board trait not a fan base trait.

44cuse

 

[OttoMets]

I think this discussion is making the rounds today among Syracuse fans.
Has the zone passed its "Sell By" date?

As you said, Otto, shooting threes is not that unusual anymore, and everybody seems to have several players now who can hit them (even us).

Everybody focuses on the three and the dunk these days, going back to high school. It seems like there are no other shots anymore (Tyus' outstanding mid-range game being a throwback of sorts ...)

How to attack zones is well understood now (penetrate, make the zone collapse, kick to weak side or corner shooters, who tend to have wide open shots). Many more teams play some zone, so it is not the tactical advantage that it used to be. Teams practice against it more often.

Kenny Anderson made an interesting point last night at halftime - shooting against a zone is easier, because the defender is running at you. Once you put the visual out of your head, it's easier to get the shot off, and the defender running at you almost creates the rhythm for your shot. He said it's much harder to get a shot off when the defender is right up against you, instead of closing from 6-10 feet away, and you know, as much as I hate having these NBA guys call a college game, I think he's right about that observation.

And then, we fail to do the one thing you have to do in a zone, which is box out; plus, we don't do the one thing that the zone is really good for, which is set you up to run the fast break.

We teach the interior passing angles very well, which is why we are still great at generating turnovers out of the zone. But if you don't run, as a general rule, and you don't trap that often, just to take advantage of the element of surprise to make the zone less predictable, then you're not playing all the cards in your hand.

One final comment - when was the last time we made really good adjustments at halftime? Yes, against Duke we collapsed the zone to double Zion every time he was on the ball side of the offense. But usually, opposing coaches reinforce their concepts about attacking the zone at halftime, and that is also a factor in our 2nd half collapses against the better teams.

This reminds me, Boeheim instituted a different half-court trap in November (or was it November 2017? these miserable seasons blur together in my memory) and then we didn't see it again. I agree - trapping and running seems like it'd solve some of our problems. 8 free points a game would be a godsend. But Boeheim's gotten risk-averse and apparently doesn't want the increase in turnovers that comes with the transition game.

I agree with somebody else's take that the zone, at least for the time being, sets a "floor" for the program. We're not going to be a sub-.500 team, because even though every opposing coach understands the importance of dribble penetration, kick-outs, and ball reversal, only a small percentage of our opponents can consistently execute.

But for half of our league opponents, we're overmatched and could use something else to shake things up - like maybe that 2-2-1 Pitino-style press that Boeheim experimented with last fall? Spurts of man in the half-court?

 

[HoustonCuse]

Whose to say we aren't headed in their direction? They both had to transition from HOF coaches. Uconn's inability to get into a power 5 conference may have made things worse, but it all started for both of these teams after losing the coaches that built their programs. I hope that does not become us, but I can easily.

I mean anything is possible, but the big difference is that we are awash in P5 resources. It is the single most important factor that matters in the college athletics world. Yuke and Gtown don't have that and so it is much much harder for them to compete.

 

[Bayside44]

I think this discussion is making the rounds today among Syracuse fans.
Has the zone passed its "Sell By" date?

As you said, Otto, shooting threes is not that unusual anymore, and everybody seems to have several players now who can hit them (even us).

Everybody focuses on the three and the dunk these days, going back to high school. It seems like there are no other shots anymore (Tyus' outstanding mid-range game being a throwback of sorts ...)

How to attack zones is well understood now (penetrate, make the zone collapse, kick to weak side or corner shooters, who tend to have wide open shots). Many more teams play some zone, so it is not the tactical advantage that it used to be. Teams practice against it more often.

Kenny Anderson made an interesting point last night at halftime - shooting against a zone is easier, because the defender is running at you. Once you put the visual out of your head, it's easier to get the shot off, and the defender running at you almost creates the rhythm for your shot. He said it's much harder to get a shot off when the defender is right up against you, instead of closing from 6-10 feet away, and you know, as much as I hate having these NBA guys call a college game, I think he's right about that observation.

And then, we fail to do the one thing you have to do in a zone, which is box out; plus, we don't do the one thing that the zone is really good for, which is set you up to run the fast break.

We teach the interior passing angles very well, which is why we are still great at generating turnovers out of the zone. But if you don't run, as a general rule, and you don't trap that often, just to take advantage of the element of surprise to make the zone less predictable, then you're not playing all the cards in your hand.

One final comment - when was the last time we made really good adjustments at halftime? Yes, against Duke we collapsed the zone to double Zion every time he was on the ball side of the offense. But usually, opposing coaches reinforce their concepts about attacking the zone at halftime, and that is also a factor in our 2nd half collapses against the better teams.

I'll say this - the zone at times forced Baylor into midrange shots that we agree have largely been phased out - to Baylor's credit they drained those shots.

Not going to check the stats but we did "seem" to have runout buckets moreso than usual.

The bigger issues is that teams have really good shooters all over the floor now, and that our turnovers are really bad going the other way.

 

[KevMonstah]

Many good posts in this thread. I consider this season a miserable failure, but that's
because I bought into what they could do, given full lineup back, depth added via health,
recruits, and hughes eligible, and expected improvement. Of which there was none. A ways
through the season, it was pointed out, "everyone back from a lousy offense is still a lousy
offense." But I guess it's relative: if the regular season sucks and they limp into the tourney
and do well, the season's a success. If the regular season is great and the tourney sucks, the
season's a failure. They need to match regular season with tourney perf, and the SU fan is
looking for a solid regular season (one loss OOC, at least 11-7 ACC) and a good postseason
performance (ideally the ACC semi-finals, and then to the sweet 16 with a chance, if they
play a good game, to get to the elite 8). That is maybe asking a lot, but that's the bar of
success for SU fans.

As for the team, yes, I'd like to see more than a zone D. I'd like to see 'players' recruited,
not 'zone athletes', I'd like to see better rebounding, I'd like to see an offense that has a
low post option, because there is something to be said for "ya know, instead of bricking
every outside shot and going scoreless for 5+ mins, how about trying a shot from inside?
you need to ability to playcall an almost certain score, and this offense hasn't had that for
awhile." And I'd like to see better than iso-dribbling and forcing a shot. Move around. And
I want to see some player development. I'm not asking for much.

And JB has his option to quit when he's ready, to which he's said in the past, it's probably
going to be a "that's it, I'm done", skipping the farewell tour. If they are planning a
succession, it almost has to be Red, because they are not going to get an agreement
with example Nate Oats that, "well, quit your job at UB the moment JB retires, because
here's a wink-wink agreement that you got it". Never happen. You'd have to be an AD
at a Big Ten or SEC school with a big football program to consider doing that. I expect
Wildhack is not that much of a slime. Either it's Red, or it's a full-blown search when
JB quits, there's not really much else to do, unless you can convince your future head
coach to accept a current assistant coach on the staff.

What a crappy way to end the season, but not an unexpected one. I swapped Baylor in
as soon as Frank was out.

Kev

 

[samspann1]

I'll say this - the zone at times forced Baylor into midrange shots that we agree have largely been phased out - to Baylor's credit they drained those shots.

Not going to check the stats but we did "seem" to have runout buckets moreso than usual.

The bigger issues is that teams have really good shooters all over the floor now, and that our turnovers are really bad going the other way.

I can honestly only remember 3 midrange jumpers which Baylor made - 2 short baseline jumpers (maybe 8') by Gillespie and a short jumper by Mason (after we didn't go after a rebound and Mason followed up his own miss)

 

[Trueblue25]

Anyone remember when Carey was going to challenge Howard for starting PG? October told me that

I got obliterated on this board for contesting this

 

[Bayside44]

I can honestly only remember 3 midrange jumpers which Baylor made - 2 short baseline jumpers (maybe 8') by Gillespie and a short jumper by Mason (after we didn't go after a rebound and Mason followed up his own miss)

Yeah JB quoted another one that had a goofy bounce in - I guess my point was those are shots guys miss a lot now and they didn't.

 

[SWC75]

Don’t give me any excuses. That’s a fact.

It was a disappointment. Again. Failure would be not getting into the NCAA tournament. Disaster would be losing the consecutive winning seasons streak.

 

[Briancuse]

It was a disappointment. Again. Failure would be not getting into the NCAA tournament. Disaster would be losing the consecutive winning seasons streak.

People thought this was a final 4 team before the year its close.

 

[SWC75]

People thought this was a final 4 team before the year its close.

Then that's a disappointment. All i asked for was to be curious rather than nervous on selection Sunday and I was.

 

[Bayside44]

I can honestly only remember 3 midrange jumpers which Baylor made - 2 short baseline jumpers (maybe 8') by Gillespie and a short jumper by Mason (after we didn't go after a rebound and Mason followed up his own miss)

I found the shot chart, looks like 3 from the foul line area and 2 from the baseline.

Baylor vs. Syracuse - Play-By-Play - March 21, 2019 - ESPN

 

[IthacaMatt]

The bigger issues is that teams have really good shooters all over the floor now, and that our turnovers are really bad going the other way.

I think this is exactly right. That kid Makai Mason was hitting them from Girard-distance. The zone is not built for guarding the 25 foot jump shot that's taken before the defense even sets itself.

 

[Briancuse]

Then that's a disappointment. All i asked for was to be curious rather than nervous on selection Sunday and I was.

Ya a that point in the season but it would be nice to get back to the days when the biggest question was 3 or 4 seed.

 

[orangepassion]

I just hope we're not going Full Pasqualoni.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Many good posts in this thread. I consider this season a miserable failure, but that's
because I bought into what they could do, given full lineup back, depth added via health,
recruits, and hughes eligible, and expected improvement. Of which there was none. A ways
through the season, it was pointed out, "everyone back from a lousy offense is still a lousy
offense." But I guess it's relative: if the regular season sucks and they limp into the tourney
and do well, the season's a success. If the regular season is great and the tourney sucks, the
season's a failure. They need to match regular season with tourney perf, and the SU fan is
looking for a solid regular season (one loss OOC, at least 11-7 ACC) and a good postseason
performance (ideally the ACC semi-finals, and then to the sweet 16 with a chance, if they
play a good game, to get to the elite 8). That is maybe asking a lot, but that's the bar of
success for SU fans.

As for the team, yes, I'd like to see more than a zone D. I'd like to see 'players' recruited,
not 'zone athletes', I'd like to see better rebounding, I'd like to see an offense that has a
low post option, because there is something to be said for "ya know, instead of bricking
every outside shot and going scoreless for 5+ mins, how about trying a shot from inside?
you need to ability to playcall an almost certain score, and this offense hasn't had that for
awhile." And I'd like to see better than iso-dribbling and forcing a shot. Move around. And
I want to see some player development. I'm not asking for much.

And JB has his option to quit when he's ready, to which he's said in the past, it's probably
going to be a "that's it, I'm done", skipping the farewell tour. If they are planning a
succession, it almost has to be Red, because they are not going to get an agreement
with example Nate Oats that, "well, quit your job at UB the moment JB retires, because
here's a wink-wink agreement that you got it". Never happen. You'd have to be an AD
at a Big Ten or SEC school with a big football program to consider doing that. I expect
Wildhack is not that much of a slime. Either it's Red, or it's a full-blown search when
JB quits, there's not really much else to do, unless you can convince your future head
coach to accept a current assistant coach on the staff.

What a crappy way to end the season, but not an unexpected one. I swapped Baylor in
as soon as Frank was out.

Kev

Better be a full blown search.

No offense to Autry, but his recruiting is not at the level of Mike Hopkins, or Rob Murphy, or Troy Weaver, or (going way back) Brendan Malone, Wayne Morgan or Rick Pitino.

He's not the guy I want to rely on as my closer. And he has as much experience as a head coach as Gerry McNamara - or Buddy Boeheim - does.

 

[pearl31]

a tad harsh but I'd say it's fair to call it a failure

 

[samspann1]

I found the shot chart, looks like 3 from the foul line area and 2 from the baseline.

Baylor vs. Syracuse - Play-By-Play - March 21, 2019 - ESPN

I did remember another shot by Mason that took a weird bounce off the side of the rim and bounced in

 

[samspann1]

I did remember another shot by Mason that took a weird bounce off the side of the rim and bounced in

I think the other one they're referring to is a short flip shot by Mayer, maybe 2' out of the restricted area

 

[skurey]

82 freshman shot >35% from 3 on >100 attempts

 

[tipphill]

Don’t give me any excuses. That’s a fact.

i agree. what is worse is that we have been trending down and will continue to do so . jb needs to retire --he is tired and cannot recruit. i am not trying to be harsh but that is the reality.