Should ACC consider Bball only offer to ND and Nova?

[orangefan13]

You got me to thinking how the ACC helps our Oak Hill connection. Thats always good.

I agree with you East coast 100 percent.

 

[Antiprodigy]

Just for conversation.

Whos to say The Big Easts problem was what they lost not what they had. BC, Miami and VT look how strong they were in the old big east. Look how strong their football is now.

For basketball you want lots of good teams otherwise the athleticism could end up subpar to another conference or two outside of Duke and UNC. Look how maryland has crashed since their championship. Look at NCstate since their miracle run.

Also what are we afraid of Uconn now. So they beat us for a recruit or two in our area and we beat them for a recruit or two in theirs :noidea:

You are forgetting the fact that football drives the bus, not basketball. From an economic standpoint, basketball is an also ran. Schools do not make conference affiliation decisions based upon any other sport. That is the fact, and failure to accept that fact is failure to accept reality.

I don't disagree that you want a strong basketball conference as a whole, rather than just a few very top level teams, but long term, what you need is to be in a conference that has solid football programs, with members who feel comfortable and secure. You also want to be in a position that will allow you the opportunity to reach the very highest levels (BCS bowl).

The BE could not or would not provide that security to the football schools. so, ultimately, that is why they left. First Miami, VT & BC, and now SU & Pitt.

I have no idea whether the ACC will ultimately provide that security or not. Only time will tell on that. There certainly has been comments about FSU, especially.
Though, agreeing with raising the cost to leave the ACC to $20 million certainly seems like solid support, stranger things have happened.

And as for UCONN, there is no fear of them, but like in any business, you want to put yourself in as good a position as you can, and handicap your rivals as much as possible. I agree with the previous poster, that it is preferable to leave UCONN behind in a less prestigious league. With less prestige, inevitably comes less interest from the top players.

As SU competes with UCONN for a significant number of its players, this puts SU at a competitive advantage. It isn't fear, it is smart business.

 

[ACCBballFan]

Im going to take a diference stance Hear me out.

YES

To summurize.
1. Now is the time to go to a megaconference the big east is falling apart.
2. You have to realize the ACC will either stay small or go really big. All those teams want to play Duke and UNC twice. The other alternative is to worry less about that and make a Megatough conference (something Duke and UNC are afraid of believe me). Personally I feel they should grab Uconn, Gtown, Nova, ND for basketball. Then we will own the eastern coastline outside of Florida University.
3. As far as money is concerned the ACC won't lose money on having Nova and Gtown in the conference. They will only have to split more of the tv basketball money. They don't need the football profits.
4. I don't like us being up so far north with pitt, and bc for the long run. Just not enough firepower in one area.
5. The new big east wasn't a debacle. Sure all the teams lost more, but It was all about competitons , the top talented teams filled with athleticism, and slightly less about rivalries like the 12 league conferences have waited for that one-two games year after year.
6. The New Big easts downfall was not having a great march madness last year, and a few other years they kind of thought the same. With already having Duke and UNC that will not happen. The universe wouldn't let it.

Bottom line I would rather see the basketball go to a megaconference then everyone crying to play Duke and UNC twice. You will still get to play them once a year and it won't seem like the mid-low half of the big ten from the bottom half of the ACC down. Add Gtown, and Nova and thats two other Big games to look forward to instead of VT, Clemson, and Wake Forest, and Virginia.
More losses, more meltdowns, but we will have so much talent and be just as deadly as anyone every march.

I was not proposing going that far to 18 in Bball and 15 in football. UCONN makes that odd number of football team untenable, and just tees off the ACC Football schools, few as there are.

Since neither G-town nor Nova is any good in football at moment, even I would not propose BBall only for the two of them without Notre Dame and one of them, not both.

Notre Dame does not need the $$ and could just share in the Bball revenue. Having only 2 of the 16 as Bball only does not give ND and Nova a voting block against the other 14 like the 8 Bball only teams have in BE over 7 football schools. Not sure what the ND BE deal is, but had assumed the ACC and ND could come to similar agreement and ND would again be in the premier BBall conference.

On the question on why even consider ND Bball only, since football drives these expansions, not Bball, or academics that are merely tie breakers and deal breakers respectively.

I would do anything I could to get ND to think ACC eventually in football, rather than B1G longer term in football, and thought of this as an interim enticer to get them quasi-hooked on ACC by building some ACC rivalries.

For same reasons, B1G would have loved to have added MD from ACC and Pitt from BE to appease PSU and entice ND.

ACC just beat B1G to the punch. IMO Adding Cuse and Pitt was not a Bball move, only a side benefit that also fit nicely academically. It was an interim football move to out maneuver B1G on ND and PSU long term, really long term.

In retrospect, having a life line for ACC Bball only might also help Notre Dame retain its football independence even longer than if BE further implodes after West VA or UL go to another conference. I don't think UCONN has anywhere to go without ND, nor Rutgers without ND to B1G or to ACC.

If BE adds more weak Bball schools to up its football numbers like Air Force, UCF, and SMU to go with USF, TCU, Seton Hall, Rutgers, Providence and Depaul, then 9 of its 18 Bball teams are bad. Then when they split into 2 divisions, Notre Dame and West VA might have to be west/central like Lousivile and Cincy and Marquette, further separating ND from UCONN, St, John's, Nova and G-town plus the necessary Rutgers, Seton Hall and Providence, and its alumni on east coast.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/s...ve-commissioner-ok-expand-big-east-conference

ND would not think twice about leaving BE Bball only once it makes its football decision (actually think there are a few sports besides BBall, just not football) and ND may feel the same way about ACC Bball only, if its football preference way down the road is B1G.

If Notre Dame long term choice would be ACC anyway, why potentially elongate their football independence?

So maybe its not an enticer at all, just a give away - an idea to consider but then reject.

The posters have spoken. BBall only is voted off the ACC island. All Sports or none in ACC, no in-between.

 

[BlackKnight76]

 

[SUFAN1]

Just say NO ! to anything N.D. wants .

 

[billsin01]

Just for conversation.

Whos to say The Big Easts problem was what they lost not what they had. BC, Miami and VT look how strong they were in the old big east. Look how strong their football is now.

For basketball you want lots of good teams otherwise the athleticism could end up subpar to another conference or two outside of Duke and UNC. Look how maryland has crashed since their championship. Look at NCstate since their miracle run.

Also what are we afraid of Uconn now. So they beat us for a recruit or two in our area and we beat them for a recruit or two in theirs :noidea:

I am absolutely with Orangefan and Janner on this one. A couple points:

1. Those who want UConn to die are kidding themselves. Life outside a major conference is entirely possible. Would it be harder for UConn to thrive without the BE? Yes. Harder still without Calhoun (eventually)? Yes. But I find it hard to believe they are going to wither and die the way most here want them to. Schools like Butler, Memphis, Gonzaga, etc have been extremely competitive for extended periods of time and UConn has a much stronger pedigree, particularly if it's playing in a conference that still includes the Marquettes, Cincy's (remember both thrived before joining the BE), SJU's, Gtown's ...

2. What is wrong with competition? I always thought the thing I liked most about the BE was that I generally cared about most games and felt like there were very few cupcakes for as long as I can remember. I'm not sure why people are so concerned with having other good teams join a conference with us. Plus, the Cuse only has 13 schollies. While it theoretically may be easier to get top flight players without a UConn and/or a Nova, we can't take em all and the rest will likely go to rivals -- no matter where we play.

3. Why would it not be appealing to essentially keep the old ACC hoops in tact with a southern division and add the bulk of the powers from the BE (Gtown, Nova, UConn, ND) and form a compelling northern division? Then you have basically every relevant east coast football program (save for Penn State and, perhaps, RU, perhaps WVU, though they may be a better fit in the SEC anyway) and almost ever major hoops program in the same region. I don't know but it seems to me it doesn't get more stable than that.

4. It balances the conference out geographically and adds some good rivalries (like UMD/G'town, as Janner pointed out; UConn/Duke/UNC; Nova/UMD).

Also, I know this is a losing battle as I admit to being an ND apologist, but I love the venom people have for ND largely b/c they make the financial decisions that benefit their institution (sound familiar SU fans?) and because they came up with a marketing campaign ahead of its time a century ago and are by far the strongest brand (obviously not team or program, but brand) in college football. Folks love to say it's the "holier than thou" attitude, but I think it's largely just people being bitter that ND doesn't have to play by the same rules.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Just for conversation.

Whos to say The Big Easts problem was what they lost not what they had. BC, Miami and VT look how strong they were in the old big east. Look how strong their football is now.

For basketball you want lots of good teams otherwise the athleticism could end up subpar to another conference or two outside of Duke and UNC. Look how maryland has crashed since their championship. Look at NCstate since their miracle run.

Also what are we afraid of Uconn now. So they beat us for a recruit or two in our area and we beat them for a recruit or two in theirs :noidea:

It's not fear, any more than it's fear of Rutgers with respect to football recruiting. It's a fact, there are so many elite recruits in the Tri-State area. It's no accident that we've been forced more down into Philly, Balitmore and DC to get our hoops players. We've been shut out of the tri-state New York area as UConn has gotten better.

Let UConn languish in a mediocre league after Calhoun retires, and their job will become a stepping stone job, and they will slip into an A-10 quality program. You (or someone else above) talks about Pitt, G'town, St. John's all having their turn on top and we shouldn't have to worry about anyone but ourselves.

That's completely missing the obvious - those other teams were all Big East teams, they weren't UMass post-Calipari; they weren't Temple after John Cheney. Do you think Jay Wright will stay in the Big East for the next 10 years now? I kind of doubt it. And even Big East teams who once had their day, like Providence, St. John's or Seton Hall, will never become a top tier school again like they used to be.

Past success is no guarantee that future results will remain the same.

 

[billsin01]

It's not fear, any more than it's fear of Rutgers with respect to football recruiting. It's a fact, there are so many elite recruits in the Tri-State area. It's no accident that we've been forced more down into Philly, Balitmore and DC to get our hoops players. We've been shut out of the tri-state New York area as UConn has gotten better.

Let UConn languish in a mediocre league after Calhoun retires, and their job will become a stepping stone job, and they will slip into an A-10 quality program. You (or someone else above) talks about Pitt, G'town, St. John's all having their turn on top and we shouldn't have to worry about anyone but ourselves.

That's completely missing the obvious - those other teams were all Big East teams, they weren't UMass post-Calipari; they weren't Temple after John Cheney. Do you think Jay Wright will stay in the Big East for the next 10 years now? I kind of doubt it. And even Big East teams who once had their day, like Providence, St. John's or Seton Hall, will never become a top tier school again like they used to be.

Past success is no guarantee that future results will remain the same.

I'm not exactly sure I agree with this. If conference affiliation is so important then why have SU and Nova mined a ton of talent out of B-more while UMD and G'town have struggled to recruit their own back yards (at least consistently) when they have both been reputable programs in big-time conferences? Yes, Temple plays in the atlantic 10 and they haven't been a force with big name recruits since the days of Mark Karcher (sp?), but they have been to 4 straight NCAAs, won 55 games the last two years and lost in OT to a 1 seed last season.

Plus, how do you explain the teams that have had sustained success outside of power conferences? Butler, Gonzaga, Xavier, Creighton, Memphis (obviously not the same since Calipari, but still preseason top 10 this year)? Or to a lesser extent schools that are pretty tough most years and have made some nice runs at the big boys in March (VCU or Wichita State, etc.)?

Finally, with the schollie limits, even if some of the schools like Nova, Uconn, etc. wane, it's only going to mean that those players are going to other area schools. All of a sudden NC State is tougher or Georgia Tech or BC, etc.

To me, as long as JB and Hop are here and SU is posting 20+ win seasons, the question in recruiting is more about the type of kid you get, the way he fits into the system and team fabric, etc. and less about pure talent.

 

[orangefan13]

Really when you look at talent out of one area in college ball it can be overated. Look at the 4-5 star players out of PA in the last 9 years for example...
03- 3 , 1 out of philly
04- 4 , 4 out of philly
05- 2 , 1 out of philly
06- 3 , 0 of them from philly
07- 10, 5 of them from philly rick and scoop
08- 3 , 0 from philly tyreke evans
09- 4, 1 from philly malik Wayans
10- 0 , 0 from Philly
11- 3 , 2 from philly christmas.
Outside of 2007 and 04 philly hasn't exactly been amazing.

You can't deny that Nova has been on the right path in proving they can grow strong in a Megaconference.

Notre Dame is full of white kids and can really shoot the ball its nice to have a team that brings both of those to the conference. Although Duke is full of white kids to

If I had a pick of old big east back when we won in 03 or the new big east I would take the new big east in a heartbeat. Better recruiting every team in the conference was dangerous come march. I liked sitting pretty knowing you have the best talent. Having basketball only teams may have hurt back in the day but were living in a new world now. The new big east proved success and only football cost them money.

Do you want to sit back and feel safe knowing someone could take a risk and beat you out in the near future, or do you want to step out from that ledge and take some risks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUE5sfmfCM4

 

[SBU72]

One condition and one conditon only. If either team EVER joins a conference for football, it has to be the ACC. Anything else the exit money applies. ($20 million) Maybe even double it becasue they in essence would have teased the ACC the years it played B-ball only.

 

[ACCBballFan]

One condition and one conditon only. If either team EVER joins a conference for football, it has to be the ACC. Anything else the exit money applies. ($20 million) Maybe even double it becasue they in essence would have teased the ACC the years it played B-ball only.

Others have convinced me adding ND and Nova or G-town Bball only is not as much an enticer for ND football as I originally thought, but that provision would be a good one with respect to Notre Dame.

Not sure it makes sense for Nova whom ACC would want to exile if they do not upgrade their facilities to a specified threshold. Nova is more a trust but verify situation. If they do not get up to par by time ND is ready, ACC should add a different 16th football team
The other good proviso I have heard is ND BBall only until say 2015 on condition that ND commits now to join ACC in football in 2015. The opposite condition for Nova, if not upgraded sufficiently by 2015, ACC adds someone else as #16 ACC football and N0va is removed from ACC Bball only status.

 

[SBU72]

Others have convinced me adding ND and Nova or G-town Bball only is not as much an enticer for ND football as I originally thought, but that provision would be a good one with respect to Notre Dame.

Not sure it makes sense for Nova whom ACC would want to exile if they do not upgrade their facilities to a specified threshold. Nova is more a trust but verify situation. If they do not get up to par by time ND is ready, ACC should add a different 16th football team
The other good proviso I have heard is ND BBall only until say 2015 on condition that ND commits now to join ACC in football in 2015. The opposite condition for Nova, if not upgraded sufficiently by 2015, ACC adds someone else as #16 ACC football and N0va is removed from ACC Bball only status.

If the 4 superconferences come about, ND will have no choice but to join one or be left out in the tundra. I think it has been said before, but ND better really have their eyes on which it is to be now or it may be to late latter. For that matter, I can't see Villanova EVER getting to be one of the top 64 football schools in the country. Wouldn't the ACC be better of chosing a school that is closer to being there plus meeting their other standards. Does Temple meet the criteria?

 

[EastCoast2]

I am absolutely with Orangefan and Janner on this one. A couple points:

1. Those who want UConn to die are kidding themselves. Life outside a major conference is entirely possible. Would it be harder for UConn to thrive without the BE? Yes. Harder still without Calhoun (eventually)? Yes. But I find it hard to believe they are going to wither and die the way most here want them to. Schools like Butler, Memphis, Gonzaga, etc have been extremely competitive for extended periods of time and UConn has a much stronger pedigree, particularly if it's playing in a conference that still includes the Marquettes, Cincy's (remember both thrived before joining the BE), SJU's, Gtown's ...

The difference is Butler, Gonzaga, Memphis aren't taking players from our region. Do you see Gonzaga recruiting Noel hard? Uconn is our main competition for players like him

 

[EastCoast2]

Not sure why my response got included in the quote...

The difference is Butler, Gonzaga, Memphis aren't taking players from our region. Do you see Gonzaga recruiting Noel hard? Uconn is our main competition for players like him

 

[billsin01]

Not sure why my response got included in the quote...

The difference is Butler, Gonzaga, Memphis aren't taking players from our region. Do you see Gonzaga recruiting Noel hard? Uconn is our main competition for players like him

Right, but if UConn goes the way of the dinosaur then someone else will be our main competition for him. With only 13 schollies every four years, we aren't going to corner the market on good northeast recruits and even if we could have every recruit we wanted, that doesn't guarantee us all that much. The job Callipari does in managing egos and getting top 100 kids to become role players without complaining constantly is underrated -- even if he is sleazy. It's not as easy as he makes it look.

I just think playing big games on national stages with regional rivals actually helps us more than it hurts to lose players from time to time.

 

[ACCBballFan]

If the 4 superconferences come about, ND will have no choice but to join one or be left out in the tundra. I think it has been said before, but ND better really have their eyes on which it is to be now or it may be to late latter. For that matter, I can't see Villanova EVER getting to be one of the top 64 football schools in the country. Wouldn't the ACC be better of chosing a school that is closer to being there plus meeting their other standards. Does Temple meet the criteria?

No Temple was removed from BE for its fan support. In academics, US News rates Temple #132, while ACC low is FSU (101) and NC State (101).

Neither do Houston or Memphis who finished out of top 200, nor ECU (194), USF (181), UCF (177), West VA (160), Louisville (160), Texas Tech (160), Cincy (143), UAB (143), Kansas State(143), Oklahoms St (132), UK (128). South Carolina would not rejoin but at least is close at 111. Several tied at 101: Tennessee, Oklahoma, Nebraska, Kansas, and Dayton who may not even have football.

So the list who make the academic grade is fairly small and in many cases geography or lack of football power eliminates them. I won't bother to list any B1G except Penn State or any SEC except Vandy to have one or P12:

17 - Vandy though an academics misfit in SEC would not leave $$ on table fits all other criteria
17 - Rice only desireable for academics, not football, Bball nor geography
19 - Notre Dame wants to remain independent in football, but that may not be viable forever
22 - G-town, terrible football
30 - Richmond but ACC already has 2 schools in Virginia
45 - Penn State, content in B1G but might be persuaded if ND opts for ACC
45 - Texas, issues with Texas Loghorn Network and distance
58 - UCONN too available for what they bring in football, have Bball except for ethics part
62 - SMU only desireable for academics, not football, Bball nor geography
68 - Rutgers too available for what they bring in football, no Bball to speak of
75 - Baylor good in football, Bball and Academics but too far
75 - Tulsa - people at OU and Okie St would get a good laugh but that's about it
90 - Missouri good in football, Bball and Academcis but too far
90 - Miami (OH) - at or below average in everything
97 - Iowa State at or below average in everything
97 - TCU good in football, not Bball, distance

Nova is listed separately as a regional school, the #1 in East, but not good at all in football.

So if you eliminate everybody in central time zone, you are left with Notre Dame who does not change clocks back, G-town, Richmond where ACC already has two in VA, Penn State, UCONN, and Rutgers, plus Nova.

The two obvious football powers in that group are ND and PSU who are not available in short term, maybe never, but no hurry to eliminate that chance slim as it may be. With one and not the other, take a run at Vandy (17) before UCONN or Rutgers.

SEC only has 13 hoping to get to 14 where ACC is, P12 and B1G have 12 and holding,

B12 only has 9 and that number could go either way.

BE will have 7 not counting Cuse and Pitt after TCU joins football play next season, if it does.

ACC has most already, why add 2 more? All that would accomplish is some ACC football schools secede and back to 14 or less with less football strength than before.

That does not apply to Cuse and Pitt who I think are great additions to ACC since they are the best realistically available in short term and set the stage for adding ND or PSU, no time soon but before limit of 16 is reached.

B1G would have loved to have added MD from ACC and Pitt from BE as their B1G 13-14 to appease PSU and entice ND for same reasons.

After ND and PSU confirm they are not available in ACC football any time soon, the next two nobody else wants without Notre Dame either, UCONN and Rutgers. So again no rush.

Georgetown and Nova have a super long way to go in football, but either, not both, could be short to medium term fillers in Bball only with Notre Dame if that BBall only scenario was more viable which is why I started the thread.

Unanimous Concensus was BBall only in ACC does not appear to be viable, and I now agree it is not unless ND agrees to ACC Ball only until 2015, then ACC Football as well or pay ACC the $20 M exit fee.

Even in that case Nova is on probabtion as it were. If they do not upgrade their football by 2015, they leave without penalty, and ACC goes after UCONN or Rutgers for ACC 16 in football if neither PSU nor Vandy are then ready to make the switch instead.

 

[arnie3]

We want UConn to be on the outside looking in. If UConn gets left in the dust, it will be good for SU. Why? UConn will either stay in a worse BE, or become a glorified UMass. This will allow SU to swoop in on all top prospects from New England. You think they'll want to play for UConn if they join the B10? What about A-10? What about a watered down BE with Navy, Army, TCU, SMU, USF etc?

Trust me, UConn fans want SU to die also, it's a northeast turf war for recruits that they are currently kicking out @$$ in. Want Nerlens Noel? Goodluck Okonoboh? Guys like Andre Drummond, Kemba Walker, Ben Gordon. We need to dominate NE bball recruiting. We should be on the top 5/ top 3 list of every top recruit in the Northeast, and that will happen if UConn becomes irrelevant.

Well I'm from UConn and I certainly don't want to see SU "die". If you go to the Boneyard, there isn't one post berating SU for what it felt it had to do. Both SU and UConn recruit nationally. It so happens that over the past couple of years, many of the better players are coming out of the Northeast. There isn't any "turf war" that I can see. UConn and the 'Cuse have battled each other since the '50's. JB and JC got closer as both had prostate cancer. And, I for one, wish your team nothing but the best, as long as we're not playing each other!

 

[tbonezone]

screw ND!!!!
they should have been forced to bring football to the BE first time around. anyone else remember the state of their hoops program prior to the BE?
suckcity. so they took all the benefits of BE inclusion and denied us the blessings. they can go rot in some other league.