Should pitchers have won-lost records?

[OttoinGrotto]

What story does it tell for DeGrom? Ans is it his story or that of the team?

It says that as great as he is, to win more on the team he's on he'd need to be even better.

Similarly it says his team isn't very good for him.

 

[SWC75]

but its also why no pitcher should really ever be considered for MVP, i hate when they are.

at the end of the season, starters are only in about 30 games and relievers about 60-70.

stay out of the MVP award.

Don Newcombe says "Hi!".

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Pitchers may only pitch every 5th game but their impact on the game could be 5 times as great as other players, although that's less likely these days since they are used less.

 

[SWC75]

If I’m trying to assess if a pitcher is good, I’m only going to look at measurables over which the pitcher has control. I want to remove chance/randomness from the equation. ERA can take a hike too.

I don't like the concept of 'earned runs' or even of 'errors' vs. 'hits'. What other sports do this? Baseball plays twice as many games as basketball and hockey and ten times as many as football. The statistical anomalies will be best filtered out in a 162 game season. You don't have to determine if something is somebody's fault, (unless you are attributing a result earned by the entire team to one man, see above). if the batter hits a fair ball and makes it at least to first base before an out is recorded, that's a hit. An error can be charged to a fielder if he drops a ball he gets his glove on, makes a wild throw, throws tot he wrong base or fails to position himself properly to make the play but that doesn't take away the hit or make a run 'unearned'. When you check the scores at night, they won't quote the 'earned runs" to tell you who won the game.

 

[OrangeFoo]

If this is really an issue for pitchers they could do away with Wins/Losses for pitches or they could create some expected Wins/Losses metric that accounts for run support.

I do agree Jake is getting screwed from a W/L perspective. QBs are in a similar boat... if their D sucks they aren't going to be winning very many games. Interestingly we don't really talk about QB wins and losses even though a QB has as much, if not more impact on a game, then a pitcher.

 

[Chip]

I think W/L made a lot more sense before lower pitch counts and specialized bullpens. Pitchers were out there battling even when they had lost their stuff. They had more control over it.

If this were the 80s or 90s even, deGromm would be finishing many of these games. There's still the lack offense issue, but not the bullpen blowing all his close games.

 

[SWC75]

No they're different. What was needed is what happened. Did enough is theoretical.

Suppose he pitches 6 shut out innings but the bullpen blows it. What else should DeGrom do to "do what was needed"? Hit a grand slam?

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Suppose he pitches 6 shut out innings but the bullpen blows it. What else should DeGrom do to "do what was needed"? Hit a grand slam?

Pitch more shut out innings.

This is the thing - I don't care about rewarding a guy for what the numbers say should have happened. Just measure what happened. Six scoreless innings should be enough to win. But so what? They didn't in this scenario.

 

[SWC75]

Pitch more shut out innings.

This is the thing - I don't care about rewarding a guy for what the numbers say should have happened. Just measure what happened. Six scoreless innings should be enough to win. But so what? They didn't in this scenario.

What if it's not up to him how many innings he pitches?

And I'm not talking about 'rewarding him' with a win. I'm talking about not burdening him with wins and losses when they are the result of what the team does. Evaluate him based on what he does.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

What if it's not up to him how many innings he pitches?

It's not.

We're really talking about the fundamentals of what's worth measuring, and how to interpret the unit of measurement.

 

[donniesyracuse]

It's not.

We're really talking about the fundamentals of what's worth measuring, and how to interpret the unit of measurement.

Yeah, count me as someone that doesn’t think pitchers’ wins and losses are worth measuring.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Yeah, count me as someone that doesn’t think pitchers’ wins and losses are worth measuring.

It tells a better story the longer the time horizon.

 

[SWC75]

So DeGrom throws a 7 inning 4 hitter with 10H's and no walks but gives up two solo home runs. But the Mets tie it up in the 7th on a home run by Peraza. In comes Diaz to pitch the 8th, (an extra inning because it's a double-header due to last night's rainout). Under current rules, a baserunner is put on 2nd base. Diaz strikes out Teitez, gets a ground ball from Bradley for the second out but the baserunner, (Peterson), moves to 3rd, walks Taylor and Urias, then hits Yelich to bring in the go-ahead run. He strikes out Adames but goes back to the dugout facing a 2-3 deficit and potential loss.

But McNeill gets a two run single in the bottom of the 8th and Diaz gets a win. DeGrom gets some stats. Diaz is 3-2 on the season but who cares?

 

[Briancuse]

So DeGrom throws a 7 inning 4 hitter with 10H's and no walks but gives up two solo home runs. But the Mets tie it up in the 7th on a home run by Peraza. In comes Diaz to pitch the 8th, (an extra inning because it's a double-header due to last night's rainout). Under current rules, a baserunner is put on 2nd base. Diaz strikes out Teitez, gets a ground ball from Bradley for the second out but the baserunner, (Peterson), moves to 3rd, walks Taylor and Urias, then hits Yelich to bring in the go-ahead run. He strikes out Adames but goes back to the dugout facing a 2-3 deficit and potential loss.

But McNeill gets a two run single in the bottom of the 8th and Diaz gets a win. DeGrom gets some stats. Diaz is 3-2 on the season but who cares?

Now the Mets are doing everything possible to get jake wins and get him off the hook for losses.