Skilled position recruiting

[OrangeMuskyFish]

I think what you're saying is logical and makes sense.

However, I can't handle being told anymore that the system isn't a problem, the talent is.

I want to see the talent. At least if we see the talent and it doesn't perform to expectations we can run out the (also tired) excuse that we're young and have hope for tomorrow.

Morris and MacFarlane or go home. I'm beating the drum now.

Hahaha... I understand your plight. Forgive any future posts where I go off in this direction, it's just that I don't really think the base talent is bad, and I don't think the base system is bad. I think it comes down to the fact that the pieces just did not fit well together this year... sadly, in almost every phase of the game.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Hahaha... I understand your plight. Forgive any future posts where I go off in this direction, it's just that I don't really think the base talent is bad, and I don't think the base system is bad. I think it comes down to the fact that the pieces just did not fit well together this year... sadly, in almost every phase of the game.

I agree with you. I think the base talent is adequate (Macky excepting), but I think the system is awful for college football. I don't want to think that, but given the results so far I can't draw any other conclusion. If people want to make the talent argument, that's fine, let's just stop running out the same talent we've already seen that apparently to everyone else is shackling this wonderful "system" we have.

You're a lot more generous than I am though, because I think that with different choices the pieces could have fit together much better.

 

[SoBristol]

Which was GROB's best class?

Keep in mind that we are only talking skills guys -- I believe Marrone's classes have been deeper and better for linemen.

GROB's first full class (2006) had Mike Williams, Deleone Carter, Taj Smith and Derrell Smith. If the six skill guys in this 2012 class are of that caliber, we will be in for some better results.

GROB's third full class (2008) had Nassib, Bailey, Fairchild, Graham, Stevens, Sales, Mike Jones, Collier, Chandler Jones (TE/DE). They didn't all stay; they weren't all world beaters, but in terms of promise at the time of signing, that group would be a match for the six listed in Marrone's 4th class.

 

[OrangeMuskyFish]

You're a lot more generous than I am though, because I think that with different choices the pieces could have fit together much better.

I do believe that could certainly have been the case, BUT at the same time, we didn't get the chance to see the failures that would have resulted from those different choices. So it is easier to rag on.

I think the system will be fine... My biggest complaint about anything was some incredibly stupid individual play calls... but to me, that is more about specific choices, rather than a philosophy. That's also why I disagree with people that act like if you dislike Hackett as OC, that it means you have to dislike Marrone as OC, because Hackett is an extension of Marrone. Had it not been for some bonehead calls, we are 6-1, with our only loss to a USC team that we did not just lay down for. That's with an undersized center, RB that isn't suited for his new role, QB that failed to make teams pay with the deep ball, and an injury to the guy that I believe would have stabilized the RT position by mid-season.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I do believe that could certainly have been the case, BUT at the same time, we didn't get the chance to see the failures that would have resulted from those different choices. So it is easier to rag on.

I think the system will be fine... My biggest complaint about anything was some incredibly stupid individual play calls... but to me, that is more about specific choices, rather than a philosophy. That's also why I disagree with people that act like if you dislike Hackett as OC, that it means you have to dislike Marrone as OC, because Hackett is an extension of Marrone. Had it not been for some bonehead calls, we are 6-1, with our only loss to a USC team that we did not just lay down for. That's with an undersized center, RB that isn't suited for his new role, QB that failed to make teams pay with the deep ball, and an injury to the guy that I believe would have stabilized the RT position by mid-season.

Good dialogue here. Putting aside the pure burning hatred of a thousand suns that I feel for the bunch formation we use a lot, my biggest disappointment on offense this season is that we took a guy that was a great dual threat back and we more or less made him one dimensional.

With as much time as Ant spent on the field it is staggering that he only caught 29 passes.

 

[RF2044]

Good dialogue here. Putting aside the pure burning hatred of a thousand suns that I feel for the bunch formation we use a lot, my biggest disappointment on offense this season is that we took a guy that was a great dual threat back and we more or less made him one dimensional.

With as much time as Ant spent on the field it is staggering that he only caught 29 passes.

I don't want to dredge up an old argument, but I think a lot of the above is due to the shortcomings of the OL. Many [most?] of our pass plays never had time to develop because the OL got crushed by the pass rush, which I believe induced the coaches to start calling shorter drops / quicker passes / max protect formations / RB committed to picking up blitz in hopes of offsetting the pressure. On the rare occasions when Nassib did have sufficient time to throw, he wasn't very accurate deep, which meant that teams would take their chances with single coverage and use the extra manpower to bring heat.

The OL also didn't do Bailey any favors. And for all of the miscues of the Rutgers game, the most critical play were when we had two downs inside the Rutgers 5 in OT to pick up the first and we weren't able to do it. The OL play absolutely has to improve or it won't matter what offense we run. That's why I believe that a lot of the talk grousing about the system is off-target.

 

[CbusCuse]

Good dialogue here. Putting aside the pure burning hatred of a thousand suns that I feel for the bunch formation we use a lot, my biggest disappointment on offense this season is that we took a guy that was a great dual threat back and we more or less made him one dimensional.

With as much time as Ant spent on the field it is staggering that he only caught 29 passes.

Totally agree with this. Thought he would catch a ton of balls. The only thing I can think of is Marrone didn't believe without a RB picking up the first penetrator the line could hold long enough for him to get out of the back field.

 

[OrangeMuskyFish]

I don't want to dredge up an old argument, but I think a lot of the above is due to the shortcomings of the OL. Many [most?] of our pass plays never had time to develop because the OL got crushed by the pass rush, which I believe induced the coaches to start calling shorter drops / quicker passes / max protect formations in hopes of offsetting the pressure. On the rare occasions when Nassib did have sufficient time to throw, he wasn't very accurate deep, which meant that teams would take their chances with single coverage and use the extra manpower to bring heat.

The OL also didn't do Bailey any favors. And for all of the miscues of the Rutgers game, the most critical play were when we had two downs inside the Rutgers 5 in OT to pick up the first and we weren't able to do it. The OL play absolutely has to improve or it won't matter what offense we run. That's why I believe that a lot of the talk grousing about the system is off-target.

Agreed RF, but I just think it kind of gets skipped over because of the fact that we all just acknowledge that the line has to get better, and then move on to more interesting topics. I think the most underrated issue in regards to the Nassib bashing is the claim that he doesn't feel pressure. He is far from Tom Brady, but I firmly believe that the combination of Hay whiffing on the outside and Chibane/Mac being blitzed up front, made such a thing impossible. I just feel that a lot of times he had no pocket to step up in when Hay got beat, and couldn't roll out when the middle got beat. Perhaps even going as far as to say that even if one of them did hold their blocks, did Ryan trust it would happen?

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I don't want to dredge up an old argument, but I think a lot of the above is due to the shortcomings of the OL. Many [most?] of our pass plays never had time to develop because the OL got crushed by the pass rush, which I believe induced the coaches to start calling shorter drops / quicker passes / max protect formations in hopes of offsetting the pressure. On the rare occasions when Nassib did have sufficient time to throw, he wasn't very accurate deep, which meant that teams would take their chances with single coverage and use the extra manpower to bring heat.

The OL also didn't do Bailey any favors. And for all of the miscues of the Rutgers game, the most critical play were when we had two downs inside the Rutgers 5 in OT to pick up the first and we weren't able to do it. The OL play absolutely has to improve or it won't matter what offense we run. That's why I believe that a lot of the talk grousing about the system is off-target.

I get what you're saying, and I agree that the limitations of the OL are big problems (Macky :cough.

I still think we should have split Ant out and lived with the consequences of having Smith/AAM in the backfield for a few plays.

 

[RF2044]

I get what you're saying, and I agree that the limitations of the OL are big problems (Macky :cough.

I still think we should have split Ant out and lived with the consequences of having Smith/AAM in the backfield for a few plays.

The OL issues went way beyond Macky. WAY beyond. In fact, I'd say that he was maybe the third biggest trouble spot, with Hay / Chibane performing even worse. That's the issue--there is no one single cause / magic bullet thing to correct, it was a systemic issue with OL execution that was the problem. In other words, you might be able to compensate for one weak leak--but three? No chance.

Frankly, I'm not sure what to make of Macky. Two highly knowledgeable football posters from the board that I trust have widely different opinions. CIL thinks he is more than adequate, and just needs to add some size / strength, but otherwise didn't perform poorly. But J.O. thinks he is decidedly subpar, and only a starter because Marrone feels some weird sense of obligation-based loyalty to Coach Mac.

My fear is that Macky is somewhere in the middle--that his upside is to be the second coming of Justin Outten. A gamer, a smart kid, a hard worker, but just someone who is physically overmatched playing at this level. Hope he proves me wrong.

To your other point, I don't disagree that we could have shown some more creativity with play calling / formations, but the flip side of that argument is that we're not in practice, and that the coaches have a better idea about what the team can execute or be reasonably expected to execute, and what needs to be done to compensate for flaws / breakdowns [like poor OL play]. And that made us tremendously one-dimensional and easily defended. We had to be the most predictable team to defend this past year--precisely because there were only a handful of things we could execute reasonably well. All opposing defenses had to do was account for those handful of plays and make sure that they were defended, and the offense would stall.

 

[OrangeMuskyFish]

Good dialogue here. Putting aside the pure burning hatred of a thousand suns that I feel for the bunch formation we use a lot, my biggest disappointment on offense this season is that we took a guy that was a great dual threat back and we more or less made him one dimensional.

With as much time as Ant spent on the field it is staggering that he only caught 29 passes.

I completely agree, Ant was most dangerous in a specific role, and unfortunately was taken out of it.

IMO, Provo and Ant (at least this year's version) are two guys that I think we will ultimately be better without. They had limitations that could make it tough to do what we needed to do, but they were too good to sit very often. The result, a couple of guys that you have no choice but to ride as far as they will take you. Without these two incumbents, I think you will see either a bump in creativity, or the coaches just being forced to set dependability aside and going with guys that best profile for the job, with less concern regarding youth. If we are lucky, perhaps both.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

The OL issues went way beyond Macky. WAY beyond. In fact, I'd say that he was maybe the third biggest trouble spot, with Hay / Chibane performing even worse. That's the issue--there is no one single cause / magic bullet thing to correct, it was a systemic issue with OL execution that was the problem. In other words, you might be able to compensate for one weak leak--but three? No chance.

Frankly, I'm not sure what to make of Macky. Two highly knowledgeable football posters from the board that I trust have widely different opinions. CIL thinks he is more than adequate, and just needs to add some size / strength, but otherwise didn't perform poorly. But J.O. thinks he is decidedly subpar, and only a starter because Marrone feels some weird sense of obligation-based loyalty to Coach Mac.

My fear is that Macky is somewhere in the middle--that his upside is to be the second coming of Justin Outten. A gamer, a smart kid, a hard worker, but just someone who is physically overmatched playing at this level. Hope he proves me wrong.

I don't disagree with any of that RF. Hay is terrible, and thankfully he makes up for it with also being really dumb. I really wish we could have had a Pugh/Speller tackle tandem. Chibane is limited.

I pick on Macky though because the other situations at least make some sense. Chibane was serviceable the season before it seemed, and going into the season he wasn't viewed as a weak link. Hay isn't ideal, but maybe Hickey would have been able to push him if he doesn't get injured though. Macky though is in a different class. First off, very few true sophomore offensive linemen are able to come in and provide even average line play. We handed the keys to the anchor position on the line to a guy that wasn't just young, but was also really, really undersized. And that leads me to my second beef with Macky. The mantra has been that all spots are open competition and may the best man win... unless you're Macky and you're competing for the center position. Marrone was pretty clear that Macky was the guy. It wasn't even questioned. Not only is that bad precedence because of the inconsistency, I think it was also a bad choice because Macky is also not good.

 

[RMH44]

I don't disagree with any of that RF. Hay is terrible, and thankfully he makes up for it with also being really dumb. I really wish we could have had a Pugh/Speller tackle tandem. Chibane is limited.

I pick on Macky though because the other situations at least make some sense. Chibane was serviceable the season before it seemed, and going into the season he wasn't viewed as a weak link. Hay isn't ideal, but maybe Hickey would have been able to push him if he doesn't get injured though. Macky though is in a different class. First off, very few true sophomore offensive linemen are able to come in and provide even average line play. We handed the keys to the anchor position on the line to a guy that wasn't just young, but was also really, really undersized. And that leads me to my second beef with Macky. The mantra has been that all spots are open competition and may the best man win... unless you're Macky and you're competing for the center position. Marrone was pretty clear that Macky was the guy. It wasn't even questioned. Not only is that bad precedence because of the inconsistency, I think it was also a bad choice because Macky is also not good.

It must be quite a burden going through life surrounded by the rest of us idiots. If only I had your ability to make such knowledgable pronouncements without ever attending a practice...I'm extremely envious.

Have a great Holiday Season.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

It must be quite a burden going through life surrounded by the rest of us idiots. If only I had your ability to make such knowledgable pronouncements without ever attending a practice...I'm extremely envious.

We each have our own trials. You have identified mine.