So our offense...what changed?

[orangecuse]

Right, but I’m not talking about one game. I’m talking about every game. Even in the Rutgers game where we struggled against a really good defensive team, took some bad shots, were missing our best shooter...we still scored 69 and got a number of layups off ball movement and great passes, cuts, etc.

2 years ago we wouldn’t have cracked 50 points in a game like that, and would’ve gotten nothing but heavily contested jumpers.

Okay, but you did make such an OP after one lopsided W, against a now 1-5 team not known for its tough D, or known for anything but losing lately for that matter. Let's see how the O looks moving forward, especially against tougher/higher quality opponents.

 

[LAOrange]

Our personnel then was better suited to isolation ball, which people hate and has gained a bad reputation.

That kind of offense can't win at the highest level of basketball anymore, meaning it wont get you an NBA championship, but its still a legit offense that has a place in the NBA and can win games in college.

This has nothing to do with anything, but I see a lot of people talk about how terrible iso ball and then turn around and say Jordan was the best basketball player ever, which is weird because iso ball was his bread and butter.

I just looked him up. Jordan average 30.7 ppg for his career. Geez. However, he also had 5.3 assists per game. ISO w/o the threat to kick doesn't work as well. Kadary has proven he's a threat to drive. JG to shoot. Kadary and JG have four guys. Battle had no one to throw it to. They should both be in 4 to 5 per game range.

 

[Mareiniss]

Okay, but you did make such an OP after one lopsided W, against a now 1-5 team not known for its tough D, or known for anything but losing lately for that matter. Let's see how the O looks moving forward, especially against tougher/higher quality opponents.

BC looked bad, but they're not as bad as their 1-5 record suggests. They took 6-0 Minnesota to OT on the road before losing. And they lost by only 76-67 to #9 Villanova on a neutral court. Aside from our game, BC's only other lopsided loss was by 20 (90-70) to #25 Florida on a neutral court. We were ahead of them by 46 points with 2:18 to go before they closed to 38 against the end of our bench.

 

[Coach Orange]

In short, Boston College is putrid, especially defensively. Simple actions were creating crippling confusion for them, and their players didn't execute basic defensive fundamentals at even a mediocre level. Coach Christian has to be embarrassed and frustrated by their ineptness.

We have yet to beat a truly good team this season. Bryant is 4-2, but they haven't held a single team to under 72 points, and only one scored less than 82. Furthermore, the combined record of the opponents we've defeated is 6-13.

Will we beat any top teams? Yes. It remains to be seen how many. Yesterday's game isn't a good predictor given BC's defensive woes.

To end this on a positive note, in the spirit of the thread's title, we ran a flare screen yesterday. Don't see many of those from SU, so that was exciting.

 

[moqui]

currently 8th in the nation in assisted fg percentage. su's highest national ranking since the great 2010 team finished 7th. that squad had 3 guys with assist rates of around 20% or higher. so far this year, we have 5 (including buddy & griff who are at 19.8 & 19.2). everyone is sharing the ball

 

[orangecuse]

BC looked bad, but they're not as bad as their 1-5 record suggests. They took 6-0 Minnesota to OT on the road before losing. And they lost by only 76-67 to #9 Villanova on a neutral court. Aside from our game, BC's only other lopsided loss was 90-70 to #25 Florida on a neutral court.

I'm aware, as I watched most of the 'Nova game, and a snippet of the UM game. That being said, I subscribe to the you're what your record says you are premise. In the end, bad teams seemingly always find ways to lose.

 

[miamicuse]

Who has a higher percentage within 3' of the basket? Oshae or Dol?

 

[SWC75]

Wow, I think Alan, Quincy, and marek can all take their man off the dribble. Buddy also showed some moves getting to the glass off the bounce. Now are any of these guys the greatest at that...no, but any or all can take advantage if they get a step or have a favorable matchup. Also, Newton has shown good ability to flash to the hoop on cuts, next year he, too, will take guys off the bounce as well.

JB said in his show this week that Alan was just a catch and shoot guy at Illinois and they are trying to teach him to work more off the dribble.

 

[SWC75]

Our personnel then was better suited to isolation ball, which people hate and has gained a bad reputation.

That kind of offense can't win at the highest level of basketball anymore, meaning it wont get you an NBA championship, but its still a legit offense that has a place in the NBA and can win games in college.

This has nothing to do with anything, but I see a lot of people talk about how terrible iso ball and then turn around and say Jordan was the best basketball player ever, which is weird because iso ball was his bread and butter.

Our Iso teams would definitely have been better with Jordan.

It's like those who say teams should shoot nothing but three pointers, lay-ups and dunks based on NBA stats. At the college level you aren't going to have as many people who can shoot from that distance. You also don't have NBA talent trying to d rive to the basket. the challenge is to use strategies that fit the strengths of you players and avoid the weaknesses. This team has the passers and the shooters, not the drivers, so we are using movement rather than isolation.

 

[SWC75]

of course, but coaching is endogenous to player quality.

Honk if you had to look that up.


HONK!!!

 

[SWC75]

Okay, but you did make such an OP after one lopsided W, against a now 1-5 team not known for its tough D, or known for anything but losing lately for that matter. Let's see how the O looks moving forward, especially against tougher/higher quality opponents.

I think we all understand that. Our observations are based on what we've seen so far. We don't have crystal balls. What we've seen does seem to compare favorably to what we've seen at this point in previous years.

 

[CardiacCuse]

iso defense is one of my pet peeves...I just dont like it. i dont think it is as effective as ball and player movement......you can see the teams that pass really well are the ones that give the zone fits.

hopefully this game can be the blueprint...and the aim for how to play most nights.

one thing I would like to see...even if it is just to unbalance the opposing defense and not explicitly to score is more passing into the post...change the angle for the defense and either get an interior pass for a layup or dunk or get a pass for a 3.

seems to me passing inside-out seems to lead to a lot good looks...but the team rarely seems to pass it into the low post.

Is this by design?

 

[Sherman20]

Did Boeheim suddenly remember how to run things better than the local high school JV coaches can?

Or did we get players who could shoot, pass, and dribble, that are capable of executing something beyond “pass it to Battle and pray”?

Just wondering.

It was one game, against a now 1-5 opponent. And, it was marvelous. However, I align with the premise that you're not as good as your most lopsided win, or as bad on the flip side. Therefore, I'll continue to see how the season progresses, how we fair against quality opponents, etc., before assessing a view I'm comfortable in positioning myself with.

The offense was very good last season. We finished within the top 30 nationally in offensive efficiency per KenPom. It’s the defense, which had been our bread and butter for years, that struggled mightily. We had three legit 3-point marksmen last season and have four or five this season (if Quincy can continue to hit and Woody gets some playing time). That helps big time in the modern game. I’d say talent deficiency was the big problem in recent seasons. But I’ve always had a bit of skepticism about JB’s “keep it simple stupid” philosophy. Meaning, let’s not keep it so simple that it’s easy to beat and prepare for. Someone on here (can’t remember who) wrote a post last season detailing how the actions and plays we tend to run have become a bit stale and outdated. There’s not a lot of imagination to it, but it can work. Whereas a coach like Beilein or Matt Painter at Purdue run these really beautiful and complex offensive sets. Of course you need to have offensively talented AND experienced personnel, so that’s been part of our problem. I always think back to 2009-10 and all the off ball screens we ran for Andy and Wes to get them great shots.

 

[RF2044]

Did Boeheim suddenly remember how to run things better than the local high school JV coaches can?

Or did we get players who could shoot, pass, and dribble, that are capable of executing something beyond “pass it to Battle and pray”?

Just wondering.

A combination of factors. First of all, a team with lots of new faces needs to gel. The strange offseason coupled with the abrupt stop in the middle of preseason practice didn't help.

Second, guys are beginning to get acclimated.

Third, they're getting used to playing with each other, and beginning to build offensive chemistry.

Fourth, for the first time in several seasons, we are playing with an actual lead guard.

Fifth, they seem to have settled into a good pattern of guys making the extra pass, not being worried about giving up the ball because as a team moving it around means that eventually it will come back your way.

This latter part doesn't always happen -- but it's been a really nice development to see the last three halves. Hope it continues, because if it does this team has a lot of offensive potential.

 

[Orangezoo]

In short, Boston College is putrid, especially defensively. Simple actions were creating crippling confusion for them, and their players didn't execute basic defensive fundamentals at even a mediocre level. Coach Christian has to be embarrassed and frustrated by their ineptness.

We have yet to beat a truly good team this season. Bryant is 4-2, but they haven't held a single team to under 72 points, and only one scored less than 82. Furthermore, the combined record of the opponents we've defeated is 6-13.

Will we beat any top teams? Yes. It remains to be seen how many. Yesterday's game isn't a good predictor given BC's defensive woes.

To end this on a positive note, in the spirit of the thread's title, we ran a flare screen yesterday. Don't see many of those from SU, so that was exciting.

BC's D was awful but they have played a legit difficult schedule this year and should have a big pelt in Nova along with a good win in Minny.

Simple action no doubt gave them issues but a lot of that was SU being decisive and quick. The pick and roll action was crisp, the cuts were hard and fast and spacing was excellent. The quality of execution and offensive talent on that action was clear so I think it's fair to give a hint of credit to this group. If you look back at Rutgers, that same spacing even without Buddy and simple action caused them a lot of problems. Our defense was poor along with rebounding and with Buddy we win it I think, with Sid I am fairly certain we do.

I will also add that no defense has yet been able to focus on one player and shut the offense down despite several teams have tried (poor execution aside).

I think we have found something too using the pick and roll with multiple players especially Quincy and Marek. If that pass is on time it's a headache for nearly any opponent especially with Griffin spotting up in the corner off that action. Going to be interesting to watch as the year goes forward but we are executing far better than the past 3 years in general. Even against weaker teams our execution last year had too much iso ball with Hughes.

 

[OrangeDW]

A combination of factors. First of all, a team with lots of new faces needs to gel. The strange offseason coupled with the abrupt stop in the middle of preseason practice didn't help.

Second, guys are beginning to get acclimated.

Third, they're getting used to playing with each other, and beginning to build offensive chemistry.

Fourth, for the first time in several seasons, we are playing with an actual lead guard.

Fifth, they seem to have settled into a good pattern of guys making the extra pass, not being worried about giving up the ball because as a team moving it around means that eventually it will come back your way.

This latter part doesn't always happen -- but it's been a really nice development to see the last three halves. Hope it continues, because if it does this team has a lot of offensive potential.

The sharing of the ball we saw last game and at times in other games is most encouraging. A team with 5 guys out there capable of scoring double digits in every game, that shares the ball and makes the extra pass can be so dangerous.

 

[cuseincincy]

Honk if you had to look that up.


HONK!!!

I just figured he meant indigenous and moved on since I know what that means.

 

[cuseincincy]

BC is not as bad as some want them to be. Good performance almost all around. My takeaways are:

1. I've got a feeling Sidibe may come off the bench even when he returns and I'm OK with that. He will be a very valuable inside presence and size that we don't have right now.
2. What I saw from JG3 was more hustle. He's going to have games where he misses a ton of shots and some he can't miss. But his asst/turnover ratio is 1.4:1 vs. Kadary 2.1:1 and Kadary has 17 steals vs 6 for Joe in 30 less minutes. Defensively against BC was more a matter of BC being a bunch of 3 pt shooters and they didn't even try to drive. Also, I have decided that a wide open 25-30 footer for Joe should be considered a good shot, I do wish he was a but more particular when he does it! This is not meant to be negative about Joe. I just think Kadary is the better all around player. I daresay it's a pretty damn good 3 guard rotation!
3. I think all the talk of we only have 3 guards is wrong. Griffin is a guard. I think the reason he was left in the end was to get more development and work at guard. He needs some work but I think he is more than capable of matching up at G.
4. Please please please I hope Woody's minutes don't disappear when Sidibe comes back! I've finally decided which former Orangeman he reminds me of...Raf. With maybe a little Donyell Marshall thrown in. Good things happen when he is the court. Woody and Kadary are imposing at the top of the zone if that look is needed. Haven't seen anything about his injury?? Just a tweak I hope. Funny to say about the 7th/8th man but the team is better with him available.
5. The front line minutes will be interesting when Sidibe comes back. Thanks to Q and Marek's versatility it doesn't really matter who else is on the court as long as one of them is most of the time. This is why I think Griff might get a few more minutes in the backcourt. The young centers have until Sidibe gets back to prove they even deserve desperation playing time time.

 

[sdorange]

I know the topic is the offense, but, the offensive rebounding by Rutgers and BC is a concern even when Sid returns. The second and 3rd chances are gonna catch up against quality teams ( UNC always comes to mid)

I know JB has said he can live with it by focusing on steals and creating turnovers, but its just demoralizing watching teams get fresh shot clock

 

[RF2044]

The sharing of the ball we saw last game and at times in other games is most encouraging. A team with 5 guys out there capable of scoring double digits in every game, that shares the ball and makes the extra pass can be so dangerous.

Agree 100%. Not all teams play unselfishly. This one seems to have the amino acids of a team that can / will.

Tough to guard a team that has 5 or 6 guys [including Woody] that can easily get double digits any given night.

 

[kirbivore]

We have a high level point guard in Kadary

Guerrier, Marek and Griffin grab boards on the O

Multiple players looking to start transition

Guerrier, Girard, Woody, Buddy, Kadary and Griff can all hit threes at a formidable clip

Guerrier and Griff cut to the hoop for back door and baseline dunks like Grant used to with Ennis

Marek allows us to play a good high low offense too that forces the D to consider whos open in the post and our 2 or 3 killers on the perimeter

Its fantastic

I don’t know if we’ve been able to spread defenselike this since ‘14

Girard didn't have to worry about Goodnine or Carey. Now the pressure is on and he responded well vs. BC. We'll see the next time they play a defense that gets in the face of guards

 

[JRHEETER]

This team also seems to have really good chemistry. They all seem to trust each other

 

[billsin01]

currently 8th in the nation in assisted fg percentage. su's highest national ranking since the great 2010 team finished 7th. that squad had 3 guys with assist rates of around 20% or higher. so far this year, we have 5 (including buddy & griff who are at 19.8 & 19.2). everyone is sharing the ball

This team is a poor man's version of '10. They aren't close on the defensive end and aren't as good offensively either. But that will be the comp b/c they don't have a great iso guy but they have a bunch of guys who can put the ball in the basket pretty well and if you catch them on the wrong night, you're in big trouble. Will be interesting to see how the season progresses.

 

[billsin01]

Girard didn't have to worry about Goodnine or Carey. Now the pressure is on and he responded well vs. BC. We'll see the next time they play a defense that gets in the face of guards

Agreed -- couldn't argue with this. That said, Girard (like any shooter, for the most part) is going to be more effective when he gets clean looks. It's incumbent upon the team to get him looks against tight defensive teams. Kadary could be a big piece of that.

In short -- my only point is, if Girard is handling the ball, running the offense and is primarily responsible for creating his own looks, he's going to struggle against those types of teams (GMac had the same issue). But if Marek and Kadary and some of the others can help create a bit and we can run a few sets to get him looks, that would be a big help. Not sure if that will happen or not.

 

[billsin01]

I know the topic is the offense, but, the offensive rebounding by Rutgers and BC is a concern even when Sid returns. The second and 3rd chances are gonna catch up against quality teams ( UNC always comes to mid)

I know JB has said he can live with it by focusing on steals and creating turnovers, but its just demoralizing watching teams get fresh shot clock

We outrebounded BC by 11 -- those are good numbers for a zone team and while they had 11 offensive rebounds I believe five of those were on one possession. Overall we did well on the glass. But your point is valid -- gonna need sidibe to help with that against tougher, bigger teams.