So then its really just about the tourney? | Syracusefan.com

So then its really just about the tourney?

STEVEHOLT

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That's what it seems college basketball has become. We are no longer allowed to enjoy the accomplishments of a successful season. We are now beholden to the god of post season, specifically the NCAA. Its unfortunate it has come to this, yet I feel like it truly has. Hard for me to look back on this season without feeling like it was a failure...even though we were 25-0. I realize this is my problem...but it just seems like everything in the landscape of the game is sort of compelling me to feel that way.
 
Not to me. I'll always remember all the great moments at the Dome this year. The Duke game had a lot of meaning to the folks who were at the Dome that day and I'll remember that far more over our win in the NCAA Tournament this year. And I'll never forget jumping up and down and going nuts with close friends when Ennis hit the shot at Pitt.

Just like last year, when we had arguably the best win any team had all year, on the road at Louisville - that was meaningful. Life to me is all about special moments. Reserving those moments only for the tourney as a college basketball fan takes away the potential of enjoying lots of meaningful moments and games.

While the NCAA Tournament is the most important time of the year, it is not the only time in which meaningful moments can be enjoyed. I've always felt that folks who view the Tournament as the only thing that matters, cheat themselves out of enjoying those other games to their full extent. And feel the season is a failure and a let down if their team does not go as far or further than expected in the Tournament. Which leaves lots of fans ripe for a let down, as anything can happen in a single elimination tournament.

I'm disappointed we won't be playing again tomorrow. Saturday's game sucked and it would have been much more satisfying if we had made it at least one more game and fantastic to make the Elite 8 again.

Because it's so fresh in our memories, the disappointment in the loss overwhelms for many, the numerous wonderful moments we had this year. Hopefully, with the passage of time, SU fans will reflect back on those moments with a smile. I know I will. And I think tomorrow, I will finally watch the replay of the SU/DUKE game in the Dome. Seems like a perfect time to do so. Let's Go Orange!
 
That's what it seems college basketball has become. We are no longer allowed to enjoy the accomplishments of a successful season. We are now beholden to the god of post season, specifically the NCAA. Its unfortunate it has come to this, yet I feel like it truly has. Hard for me to look back on this season without feeling like it was a failure...even though we were 25-0. I realize this is my problem...but it just seems like everything in the landscape of the game is sort of compelling me to feel that way.

I don't like the thought. In fact I hate it. But I can't deny it. "The Tournament" has become the defining event for the year. 28-6? Who cares? Lose in the opening round and the year is a dismal failure. Lose in the "16" round and it's merely a failure, but perhaps not dismal.
 
It's always about the tournament. The 90-91 squad was a definite 1 seed going into the BE tourney, had arguably the best player in the country in Billy Owens, and dominated the regular season. Then the first round BE tourney loss to a terrible Nova team, followed by the Richmond fiasco. That team is defined by the Richmond loss. It's no different now.
 
That's what it seems college basketball has become. We are no longer allowed to enjoy the accomplishments of a successful season. We are now beholden to the god of post season, specifically the NCAA. Its unfortunate it has come to this, yet I feel like it truly has. Hard for me to look back on this season without feeling like it was a failure...even though we were 25-0. I realize this is my problem...but it just seems like everything in the landscape of the game is sort of compelling me to feel that way.
conference tournament was a bust. had a shot at the regular season title and got clobbered. it was a fun run when it lasted but it's not like it was just one tournament upset.
 
That's what it seems college basketball has become. We are no longer allowed to enjoy the accomplishments of a successful season. We are now beholden to the god of post season, specifically the NCAA. Its unfortunate it has come to this, yet I feel like it truly has. Hard for me to look back on this season without feeling like it was a failure...even though we were 25-0. I realize this is my problem...but it just seems like everything in the landscape of the game is sort of compelling me to feel that way.
There's always been a Tournament at the end of the season. You act like it's a new thing.
 
Not to me. I'll always remember all the great moments at the Dome this year. The Duke game had a lot of meaning to the folks who were at the Dome that day and I'll remember that far more over our win in the NCAA Tournament this year. And I'll never forget jumping up and down and going nuts with close friends when Ennis hit the shot at Pitt.

Just like last year, when we had arguably the best win any team had all year, on the road at Louisville - that was meaningful. Life to me is all about special moments. Reserving those moments only for the tourney as a college basketball fan takes away the potential of enjoying lots of meaningful moments and games.

While the NCAA Tournament is the most important time of the year, it is not the only time in which meaningful moments can be enjoyed. I've always felt that folks who view the Tournament as the only thing that matters, cheat themselves out of enjoying those other games to their full extent. And feel the season is a failure and a let down if their team does not go as far or further than expected in the Tournament. Which leaves lots of fans ripe for a let down, as anything can happen in a single elimination tournament.

I'm disappointed we won't be playing again tomorrow. Saturday's game sucked and it would have been much more satisfying if we had made it at least one more game and fantastic to make the Elite 8 again.

Because it's so fresh in our memories, the disappointment in the loss overwhelms for many, the numerous wonderful moments we had this year. Hopefully, with the passage of time, SU fans will reflect back on those moments with a smile. I know I will. And I think tomorrow, I will finally watch the replay of the SU/DUKE game in the Dome. Seems like a perfect time to do so. Let's Go Orange!

Beautifully put! It is absolutely true that the environment conspires to make the tourney the end all, be all. CBS starts out the season with "The Road to the Final Four." ESPN also flogs the tournament into our consciousness. We should not fall into the trap that the big media corporations set for us! We may be just one small person, but we can think whatever we want.

I, too, was let down by the tourney. But you could see it coming in slow motion. I feel the way bigeast does: that Duke game was one of my best SU memories, EVAH! As Cuse fans, we have many such memories. It's not what happens to us, it's what we think about what happens to us. In that way, we are in charge of our mindsets, and the 1 percenters can go suck a duck.
 
It depends on the program and the season. I doubt Mercer or NDSt. fans are too upset that they didn't make it past the first weekend. Those teams exceeded their expectations.

We're not Mercer or ND St though. We had different expectations that were built on such a strong start. Falling short in the tournament after a good season is tough for a fan of any high level program to swallow.

I tried to temper my expectations after the way things played out at the end of the regular season and ACC tournament. My expectations went from Final Four to "don't lose while wearing the home whites."
 
It's always been about the tournament. That's why JB "suddenly became a good coach" after we won it all in 2003. He was always viewed as being lesser than his peers, because he hadn't reached the pinnacle of NCAA hoops: winning the NCAA tournament.
 
For a team like Syracuse, Duke, Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina etc.. Yes, it's all about the tournament.

If we went to the Sweet 16, the season would have been a disappointment but somewhat of a validator for the season because we didn't flame out early and the tourney is just a cluster**** anyway. Losing in the first or second round, when you're a program of our caliber is awful, and honestly, it pretty much wipes away any of the season's accomplishments in the eyes of many. I'm sure Duke and Kansas feel the same way this year (and most years lately)

Speaking of Self's Kansas and Boeheim's Syracuse.. The Tournament becomes even more important when you're constantly a loaded team yet rarely make Final 4's or win Championships. Add in early flameouts and the regular seasons become pretty meaningless because of failed expectations in the tournament year in/year out.

There is no reason we should only have a Final 4 each decade and one National Championship given our talent year in/year out. The NCAA Tournament is a joke of a way to decide a Champion but we need to be better than that. Until that happens, the regular season's arent going to be validated by early round flameouts, they will be viewed as another failed opportunity.
 
Sad but true. The tourney's success has almost been a curse.

It has brought in many casual fans, who love the tournament so much they don't pay attention otherwise, once they know their favorite team will be there.

For fans like us, obviously post season success is what we remember years by. Name a year in the last 30 and I can automatically remember how far they went and who they lost to, but the conference standings are a bit more blurry.

I also think the regular season now stretching over 4 months (how long ago does Cooney's explosion in the Cornell game seem like), and parity have shifted focus to the tournament even more. With so many games, the regular season seems diluted. Odd to think that 20 years ago there maybe was 1 game before Thanksgiving. With parity, getting a 1, 2, or even 3 seed doesn't feel like that much of a difference in most cases, so there are fewer games that really seem to sway it.
 
The amazing thing about measuring your success against a single elimination tournament is that the odds are against you feeling happy at the end of it.
 
The amazing thing about measuring your success against a single elimination tournament is that the odds are against you feeling happy at the end of it.
This is true, but although I was disappointed in 2013, I felt we had a successful season. We made it farther than I thought we would. I felt this way in 2012 as well. This year I can't help but feel we underachieved due to our early exit. It's the downside to single elimination.
 
It's a bit of a crapshoot no doubt. But how much different is the King of American sports - the NFL?

The Ravens & Colts couldn't win it with one of their best three or four teams but finally did with inferior teams.
The Giants - negative point differential? Beaten by Todd Collins at home in December? Give me a break.
'05 Steelers - lost the division to the Bengals at home, then broke Carson Palmer's knee while giving up a 60yd bomb on the first play of the game & got Duke in Cameron level calls vs Seattle. Great.
'01 Pats were a joke compared to some of their recent teams.

I think teams who at least had a reasonable argument for best team in the reg. season have won the ncaab tournament more often in the last 10-15yrs. Exceptions are '11 Uconn, maybe '06 Florida, and yes, '03 Cuse.

I think you can do the same thing for baseball & hockey which are incredibly flukey sports by nature, even though their playoffs are best of 7. The NBA is the exception to the rule and therefore less interesting. I am not watching one second of the playoffs before the conference finals - wake me up when the Pacers-Heat series starts.
 
The problem is right now for Syracuse, at least the last 4 or 5 years with some of the great regular seasons we have had, is that if we don't at least go to the elite 8 every year everyone is going to be dissappointed.
 
The amazing thing about measuring your success against a single elimination tournament is that the odds are against you feeling happy at the end of it.
how is it any different than measuring your success against a round robin or a tournament with multiple game series?
 
That's what it seems college basketball has become. We are no longer allowed to enjoy the accomplishments of a successful season. We are now beholden to the god of post season, specifically the NCAA. Its unfortunate it has come to this, yet I feel like it truly has. Hard for me to look back on this season without feeling like it was a failure...even though we were 25-0. I realize this is my problem...but it just seems like everything in the landscape of the game is sort of compelling me to feel that way.
Not to me. I enjoy college basketball for the love of the game; it is athletic artistry. I just wish my body was younger so I could still make the moves I envision in my head. Most fans for all teams except one go home unhappy at the end of the season. At 28-6, I am still grateful for many hours of entertainment and enjoyment.
 
That's what it seems college basketball has become. We are no longer allowed to enjoy the accomplishments of a successful season. We are now beholden to the god of post season, specifically the NCAA. Its unfortunate it has come to this, yet I feel like it truly has. Hard for me to look back on this season without feeling like it was a failure...even though we were 25-0. I realize this is my problem...but it just seems like everything in the landscape of the game is sort of compelling me to feel that way.
I don't necessarily think so. If we had played well and lost because Dayton was bombing threes from 25 ft, I would've felt better about the loss. The thing that made this season frustrating, is the way we played the last half. This team was looking ugly before our first loss. I don't simply look at a record and allow it to decide how I feel about our play. I look at how well we're playing. A bad game here or there is expected, but we showed a definite decline in our quality of play at some point in January, and that made the rest of the season difficult to enjoy, hoping we would snap out of the funk.
 
how is it any different than measuring your success against a round robin or a tournament with multiple game series?
Not sure what you mean by a round robin, but usually at least mith a multiple game series you're a little more certain the better team won than a one shot, winner take all thing.
 
Not sure what you mean by a round robin, but usually at least mith a multiple game series you're a little more certain the better team won than a one shot, winner take all thing.
but it doesn't change the odds of feeling happy at the end of it (there are 2 teams)

i get why you play more games to figure out who is better but that's different than saying everyone has worse odds of being happy in a single elimination. this stuff is zero sum, winners are happy, same number of winners either way
 
That's what it seems college basketball has become. We are no longer allowed to enjoy the accomplishments of a successful season. We are now beholden to the god of post season, specifically the NCAA. Its unfortunate it has come to this, yet I feel like it truly has. Hard for me to look back on this season without feeling like it was a failure...even though we were 25-0. I realize this is my problem...but it just seems like everything in the landscape of the game is sort of compelling me to feel that way.

The finish WAS a failure. 3-6 to end the year, hard to see it any other way. I wasn't thinking nat'l championship but if we had at least played to seed, it would have redeemed in my mind some of the struggles of the previous weeks. That we didn't and lost to another double digit seed was further proof to me of our regression.
 
That's what it seems college basketball has become. We are no longer allowed to enjoy the accomplishments of a successful season. We are now beholden to the god of post season, specifically the NCAA. Its unfortunate it has come to this, yet I feel like it truly has. Hard for me to look back on this season without feeling like it was a failure...even though we were 25-0. I realize this is my problem...but it just seems like everything in the landscape of the game is sort of compelling me to feel that way.


For me, it isn't entirely about the tourney, but the post-season [I include the conference tournament in this] is a big part of the overall satisfaction level I feel, and how I rate the "success" of the season.

For example, I don't consider the 2010 season a "failure" because we lost in the sweet 16. Disappointing as sh/t, but my perception is still that this team had perfect offensive chemistry, and finished the season ranked #1--that's an outstanding accomplishment. I don't take for granted that we were a shoo-in for the NC that year like some posters, but I am pretty confident that with Arinze we get by Butler. From there---who knows? So despite the disappointment I feel about this team not advancing further in the NCAAs, I have a highly favorable hindsight view of this team / players.

Similarly, I don't consider the 2012 season a "failure" despite not making the final four. Dream regular season--30-1 record, with the lone loss coming in a game where Fab got suspended and the team played as though shell-shocked over the announcement. We beat Uconn three times, and made the elite eight. Was disappointed to lose to a hot shooting Cinci team in the BET, and it kills me that Ohio State [for personal / family reasons]--as well as the refs--prevented us fronm making the final four. The team held it together during the Bernie Fine scandal, and had an incredible season despite the season ending a little earlier than I would have liked. And I view that as partly attributable to Fab getting the boot. So again, disappointing final outcome, but I look back on this year as being about as close to a "dream season" as you can ask for, especially given the circumstances.

This year feels has a Lawrence Moten vibe to me [bear with me on this analogy]. Moten was phenomenal--the school's / BE's all time leading scorer, just a tremendous career overall. But in some ways, said career is tainted by both a semi-lackluster senior team performance, and the timeout call against Arkansas, slightly marring his otherwise stellar accomplishments. Right wrong or indifferent, fair or not, it's impossible for me to think of Moten without that incident coming to mind. Similarly, Billy Owens was one of the best players in program history--period. I don't think that most posters appreciate how talented he was--in large part because of how the 1991 season went down. Awesome regular season, win the BE regular season title, shocking first round loss in the BET, followed by an even more shocking loss to a 15 seed in the first round of the NCAAs. The way this season unfolded feels a lot like how I view Moten / Owens in retrospect.

Here's what I mean: after 2012, I didn't think we'd ever have a "dream" season again. I knew that this team had offensive limitations going in, but they ran out to a 25-0 start--the best start in school history. They won close games, and always seemed to find a way [team of destiny talk abounded at one point]. They had the epic win over Duke. The shot to beat pitt at the Pete. They reached the #1 ranking at midseason--no small feat--and held it for several weeks. Did I mention 25-0? But despite all that, there are some blemishes. We lost--at home--to BC and GT, two of the worst teams in the conference. Despite playing even for 30 minutes on the road, we got whipped by UVa in a game that at the time had conference title implications. We went 3-6 down the stretch. We lost in the first ACC conference tournament game we ever played in. And we got sent home in the round of 32 by a team we were better than, due to a terrible offensive performance.

After this sting has worn off, and I look back on this season in historical retrospect, there are definitely going to be things I remember with reverence [I won't repeat them--most of these things are listed above]. But overall the amazing first 2/3 of the season will be overshadowed by the dismal postseason performance, as well as the late season collapse. My opinion won't be ENTIRELY predicated upon the NCAA tournament, as the OP described, but it will definitely factor in heavily.
 
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For me, it isn't entirely about the tourney, but the post-season [I include the conference tournament in this] is a big part of the overall satisfaction level I feel, and how I rate the "success" of the season.

For example, I don't consider the 2010 season a "failure" because we lost in the sweet 16. Disappointing as sh/t, but my perception is still that this team had perfect offensive chemistry, and finished the season ranked #1--that's an outstanding accomplishment. I don't take for granted that we were a shoo-in for the NC that year like some posters, but I am pretty confident that with Arinze we get by Butler. From there---who knows? So despite the disappointment I feel about this team not advancing further in the NCAAs, I have a highly favorable hindsight view of this team / players.

Similarly, I don't consider the 2012 season a "failure" despite not making the final four. Dream regular season--30-1 record, with the lone loss coming in a game where Fab got suspended and the team played as though shell-shocked over the announcement. We beat Uconn three times, and made the elite eight. Was disappointed to lose to a hot shooting Cinci team in the BET, and it kills me that Ohio State [for personal / family reasons]--as well as the refs--prevented us fronm making the final four. The team held it together during the Bernie Fine scandal, and had an incredible season despite the season ending a little earlier than I would have liked. And I view that as partly attributable to Fab getting the boot.

This year feels has a Lawrence Moten vibe to me [bear with me on this analogy]. Moten was phenomenal--the school's / BE's all time leading scorer, just a tremendous career overall. But in some ways, said career is tainted by both a semi-lackluster senior team performance, and the timeout call against Arkansas, slightly marring his otherwise stellar accomplishments. Right wrong or indifferent, fair or not, it's impossible for me to think of Moten without that incident coming to mind. Similarly, Billy Owens was one of the best players in program history--period. I don't think that most posters appreciate how talented he was--in large part because of how the 1991 season went down. Awesome regular season, win the BE regular season title, shocking first round loss in the BET, followed by an even more shocking loss to a 15 seed in the first round of the NCAAs. The way this season went down feels a lot like how I view Moten / Owens in retrospect.

Which brings me back to this season. After 2012, I didn't think we'd ever have a "dream" season again. I knew that this team had offensive limitations going in, but they ran out to a 25-0 start--the best start in school history. They won close games, and always seemed to find a way [team of destiny talk abounded at one point]. They had the epic win over Duke. The shot to beat pitt at the Pete. They reached the #1 ranking at midseason--no small feat--and held it for several weeks. Did I mention 25-0? But despite all that, there are some blemishes. We lost--at home--to BC and GT, two of the worst teams in the conference. Despite playing even for 30 minutes on the road, we got whipped by UVa in a game that at the time had conference title implications. We went 3-6 down the stretch. We lost in the first ACC conference tournament game we ever played in. And we got sent home in the round of 32 by a team we were better than, due to a terrible offensive performance.

After this sting has worn off, and I look back on this season in historical retrospect, there are definitely going to be things I remember with reverence [I won't repeat them--most of these things are listed above]. But overall the amazing first 2/3 of the season will be overshadowed by the dismal postseason performance, as well as the late season collapse. My opinion won't be ENTIRELY predicated upon the NCAA tournament, as the OP described, but it will definitely factor in heavily.
I completely get your analogy. For me, the amount of influence the tournament has on my opinion of the season can vary. I think last year's team is remembered more fondly than maybe it deserves because of a great run to the final four. How many people remember, without looking it up, that we were a 9 loss team with a 11-7 Big East record (5th in the league)? I'm sure it's a lot fewer than it would've been, had we lost prior to the Final 4. The '96 team is one of my all time favorite teams, very much because of our tournament run. We had 8 losses and finshed 4th in a loaded Big East (4th if you go by conference record. we actually finished 2nd in our division). Without the tournament I would probably remember that team as a good team, but certainly not a great season. The tournament elevated it to a great season.

On the other hand, early tournament losses didn't diminish how much I loved other seasons. 87-88 and 89-90 will always be two of my favorites for a variety of reasons, despite both of them being upset in the tournament.

So, as you said, it's not all about the tournament, but the tournament can certainly influence the way you remember a team.
 

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