So what is the problem here?

[shandeezy7]

In recent years, I don't ever recall an SU basketball team just absolutely obliterating the dregs of the non-conference schedule like they have this year. Sure we have blown these teams out in the past, but even in our really good years it seems like we've had struggles and won some nail-biters against teams that aren't even close to the same class as us.

So my question is - what gives? Why are we able to completely manhandle these teams, and then lay complete eggs against decent to good teams? Is it a mental thing? Are we unprepared for the increased level of competition? Is it a scheme thing? It's baffling to me.

 

[Cusefan0307]

It's weird. Duke played a team of the same caliber and won by 10. This is a weird team.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Sometimes guys just dominate worse players, but when the competition level increases, that fades away. Certainly not the only reason (there are a few), but sometimes guys just fold against equal or better players. It's not revolutionary- I would say the concept is pretty straightforward and obvious (harder to beat better players)... but for whatever reason, we seem to really have a lot of those type of players right now, for whatever reason. I do believe a lot is mental.

Weird team.

 

[SoBristol]

Probably not this simple, but against weak teams this SU team holds its own on the boards, gets easy finishes inside, and stops a share of what the opponent tries to do inside. Against better teams, SU gets dominated in the paint.

 

[Brooky03]

Open 3's. That's the big difference. Midmajors can't sellout on stopping us from the 3 point line because they can't handle our bigs one-on-one like better teams can. Better teams decide that they're going to take away our 3's at all costs... and we let them.

If we play the best team in the country and they don't gameplan to stop us from shooting 3's, we have a decent chance of winning in a shootout. But no good teams are going to let us shoot 3's, so we better figure out a way to do what WE want to do on offense, not what the defense is LETTING us do. Right now, the worst play we have is one of our guards driving to the rim and shooting. Defenses know this and, more or less, let us do it.

 

[orangecuse]

Not enough Louden Swain's on the team.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Open 3's. That's the big difference. Midmajors can't sellout on stopping us from the 3 point line because they can't handle our bigs one-on-one like better teams can. Better teams decide that they're going to take away our 3's at all costs... and we let them.

If we play the best team in the country and they don't gameplan to stop us from shooting 3's, we have a decent chance of winning in a shootout. But no good teams are going to let us shoot 3's, so we better figure out a way to do what WE want to do on offense, not what the defense is LETTING us do. Right now, the worst play we have is one of our guards driving to the rim and shooting. Defenses know this and, more or less, let us do it.

Why did Grayson Allen stink against a mid major last night?

 

[Brooky03]

Why did Grayson Allen stink against a mid major last night?

Cuz he plays for Duke and Duke sucks; therefore, he sucks?

 

[jordoo]

Sometimes guys just dominate worse players, but when the competition level increases, that fades away. Certainly not the only reason (there are a few), but sometimes guys just fold against equal or better players. It's not revolutionary- I would say the concept is pretty straightforward and obvious (harder to beat better players)... but for whatever reason, we seem to really have a lot of those type of players right now, for whatever reason. I do believe a lot is mental.

Weird team.

It does seem like as a group overall the team plays much different in the big games. It feels like one decent performance against a legit P5 team (not BC) could get the ball rolling in the right direction. The fire power is there but we have big issues against m2m and protecting the defensive glass. I don't think this team sucks as much as they have sucked, (I know that doesn't make sense) Right now this team looks much better when you look at the parts than it does when you put those parts together.

 

[General20]

Read Orangefog's thread called Against a Zone. Syracuse is good against zone's and terrible against man to man.

The worst teams we have played (South Carolina St., Eastern Michigan, etc) have also all zoned us, so we win huge against them. The best teams we've played (Wisconsin and South Carolina) went man to man against us so they blew us out.

Georgetown zoned us for stretches, and we scored 71 points despite missing about a thousand lay ups - we could and probably should have scored close to a hundred in that game too. We were up 11 on UConn despite many shots being half way down and rimming up until they switched to man to man and we completely fell apart blowing the lead and the game.

The explanation is, Syracuse runs a decent zone offense and an embarrassingly bad man to man offense.

If you want to know why, there are a few reasons. One is team cohesion, there is a lack of crisp passing and ball movement against man to man defense, and that's usually a product of guys not understanding what they are suppose to do. Hopefully this will get fixed in time.

Two is, nobody on our team merits a double team. Its easy for man defenses when each guy on their team can handle each guy on our team, and nobody ever has to double or get out of position.

Three, our guards are not a threat to penetrate and score. Even when we beat somebody off the dribble we miss the layup, so again, nobody has to leave their man to protect the rim which means there are no open shots for us.

 

[AZOrange]

Cuz he plays for Duke and Duke sucks; therefore, he sucks?

You all will enjoy this

http://deadspin.com/dukes-grayson-allen-draws-foul-without-being-touched-1790302074

 

[FrancoPizza]

Syracuse is good against zone's and terrible against man to man.
The explanation is, Syracuse runs a decent zone offense and an embarrassingly bad man to man offense.

If you want to know why, there are a few reasons.

I would think the fact that they practice their halfcourt sets against a fundamentally undisciplined m2m would be the biggest reason. They're practicing against something they really won't see versus good competition.

 

[Brooky03]

You all will enjoy this

http://deadspin.com/dukes-grayson-allen-draws-foul-without-being-touched-1790302074

Saw that last night. I'd say it's unbelievable, but it's Duke, so anything is possible/believable.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Read Orangefog's thread called Against a Zone. Syracuse is good against zone's and terrible against man to man.

The worst teams we have played (South Carolina St., Eastern Michigan, etc) have also all zoned us, so we win huge against them. The best teams we've played (Wisconsin and South Carolina) went man to man against us so they blew us out.

Georgetown zoned us for stretches, and we scored 71 points despite missing about a thousand lay ups - we could and probably should have scored close to a hundred in that game too. We were up 11 on UConn despite many shots being half way down and rimming up until they switched to man to man and we completely fell apart blowing the lead and the game.

The explanation is, Syracuse runs a decent zone offense and an embarrassingly bad man to man offense.

If you want to know why, there are a few reasons. One is team cohesion, there is a lack of crisp passing and ball movement against man to man defense, and that's usually a product of guys not understanding what they are suppose to do. Hopefully this will get fixed in time.

Two is, nobody on our team merits a double team. Its easy for man defenses when each guy on their team can handle each guy on our team, and nobody ever has to double or get out of position.

Three, our guards are not a threat to penetrate and score. Even when we beat somebody off the dribble we miss the layup, so again, nobody has to leave their man to protect the rim which means there are no open shots for us.

I think that's part of it, but we also only scored 50 against UConn's garbage zone so I'm not sure it's all of it.

 

[jncuse]

Probably not this simple, but against weak teams this SU team holds its own on the boards, gets easy finishes inside, and stops a share of what the opponent tries to do inside. Against better teams, SU gets dominated in the paint.

It can't be that because entering last night's game there was not that much that differentiated Georgetown, Monmouth, UConn, and Eastern Michigan in terms of power rankings. They are similar quality teams.

 

[CuseMan4]

We have 3 guys that have been solid for us against good competition Lydon, Thompson and Coleman. White has been average. But what we need is just 1 of Gillion, Howard, or Battle to step up theor game against the good competition and we should be rolling, we need penetration from those guys and we need someone who can run the offense efficiently without dumb mistakes. We have the bigs and the wings, we just don't have someone to start the offense (the most critical part)

 

[Moontan]

You all will enjoy this

http://deadspin.com/dukes-grayson-allen-draws-foul-without-being-touched-1790302074

Amazing!

 

[SUfanNC]

The M2M defense issue makes sense. I would think in practice the it is hard to have the level of M2M that you will see on a nightly basis. Hopefully that bodes well for us improving throughout the season.

I think lack of chemistry and knowing rolls is a part of it. I think the way White started and the fact Lydon wasn't making shots that the team naturally looked for White to make shots to get them back in it. I would like to see Lydon be the leader. I feel like right now people are playing out of their comfort zone on what they can do offensively. I think once the team starts to understand roles on the team that the confidence will grow as well as who steps up will. I think guys like Roberson need structure with in the game for him to flourish and be able to do what he does.

The talent and shot making ability is there which is evident against teams they believe they can beat. If it is a team that has size and athletes of similar caliber I believe we don't have the belief that once we get down we can come back and we press. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I truly believe this is why coach K and Izzo are great coaches. They seemed to be dialed into their teams psyche.

 

[shandeezy7]

Read Orangefog's thread called Against a Zone. Syracuse is good against zone's and terrible against man to man.

The worst teams we have played (South Carolina St., Eastern Michigan, etc) have also all zoned us, so we win huge against them. The best teams we've played (Wisconsin and South Carolina) went man to man against us so they blew us out.

Georgetown zoned us for stretches, and we scored 71 points despite missing about a thousand lay ups - we could and probably should have scored close to a hundred in that game too. We were up 11 on UConn despite many shots being half way down and rimming up until they switched to man to man and we completely fell apart blowing the lead and the game.

The explanation is, Syracuse runs a decent zone offense and an embarrassingly bad man to man offense.

If you want to know why, there are a few reasons. One is team cohesion, there is a lack of crisp passing and ball movement against man to man defense, and that's usually a product of guys not understanding what they are suppose to do. Hopefully this will get fixed in time.

Two is, nobody on our team merits a double team. Its easy for man defenses when each guy on their team can handle each guy on our team, and nobody ever has to double or get out of position.

Three, our guards are not a threat to penetrate and score. Even when we beat somebody off the dribble we miss the layup, so again, nobody has to leave their man to protect the rim which means there are no open shots for us.

That is definitely a partial explanation, and the lack of finishing ability at the rim is beyond frustrating. I think part of the problem with the man offense we run is that spacing and off-ball movement is horrendous. If our guards are bad at finishing, then we need to have guys cutting to the basket and others setting up good passing lanes/angles on the perimeter once we penetrate into the lane.

Even if opposing coaches are drilling into their players to stick with their man and not sag off on help D, the natural instinct is still to react to the ball. Unfortunately, far too often, we get a guy in the lane with the ball and we have 4 guys standing around watching. Not an ideal way to take advantage of defensive rotations and get an open shot.

 

[bballbeadle]

Two is, nobody on our team merits a double team.

General, what you mean to write is "nobody on our team merits a double team - yet." Right? Right?? (she asks with mounting hysteria)

 

[SoBeCuse]

Read Orangefog's thread called Against a Zone. Syracuse is good against zone's and terrible against man to man.

The worst teams we have played (South Carolina St., Eastern Michigan, etc) have also all zoned us, so we win huge against them. The best teams we've played (Wisconsin and South Carolina) went man to man against us so they blew us out.

Georgetown zoned us for stretches, and we scored 71 points despite missing about a thousand lay ups - we could and probably should have scored close to a hundred in that game too. We were up 11 on UConn despite many shots being half way down and rimming up until they switched to man to man and we completely fell apart blowing the lead and the game.

The explanation is, Syracuse runs a decent zone offense and an embarrassingly bad man to man offense.

If you want to know why, there are a few reasons. One is team cohesion, there is a lack of crisp passing and ball movement against man to man defense, and that's usually a product of guys not understanding what they are suppose to do. Hopefully this will get fixed in time.

Two is, nobody on our team merits a double team. Its easy for man defenses when each guy on their team can handle each guy on our team, and nobody ever has to double or get out of position.

Three, our guards are not a threat to penetrate and score. Even when we beat somebody off the dribble we miss the layup, so again, nobody has to leave their man to protect the rim which means there are no open shots for us.

Your last sentence is big in the way we run our simplistic offense, IMO. The guards show VERY little ability to get by their man against better competition M2M. Like you said then if they can they aren't finshing or turning it over. This is a problem. We will need better screening up top I think to free them up. They way we execute screening is a disaster. White can be contained with a good athlete following him curling around. I think it will get a little better against M2M but to me it's mostly personnel issue and a scheme issue, secondary. Not that optimistic.

 

[longislandcuse]

Your last sentence is big in the way we run our simplistic offense, IMO. The guards show VERY little ability to get by their man against better competition M2M. Like you said then if they can they aren't finshing or turning it over. This is a problem. We will need better screening up top I think to free them up. They way we execute screening is a disaster. White can be contained with a good athlete following him curling around. I think it will get a little better against M2M but to me it's mostly personnel issue and a scheme issue, secondary. Not that optimistic.

We should run pick and roll ad nauseum with the shooters we have.

That doesn't mean run it with Roberson which we love to do. It means run the pick and pop with Lydon and Thompson. If the help defender comes off the wing, kick it to the wing shooter. If not, drive to the hoop where Frank needs to get stronger with the ball and Gillon needs to get smarter with his limitations. If both follow you, drop it off to Lydon or Thompson who can both hit the jumper, pass it to an open man or drive the lane.

 

[Consigliere]

There is an ESPN Insider article up now about White. He mentions that the offense is more player driven than system driven - not a lot of set plays, but read and react and anticipate where your teammates are going to be. Takes some time for all the new pieces to build that. He further states that their spacing has been flawed so better defenses can collapse and help close the driving lanes.
That's been really evident in the half court but I remain really disappointed with our fast break offense. As the zone improves (and it certainly will) there will be more steals at the top and opportunities to break. Our fundamental execution has been terrible. No filling the lanes, no ball movement, just one guy out front driving to the basket with blinders on. Luckily last night it was Battle on a few occasions and he did manage to draw fouls and knock down his FTs.

 

[jordoo]

We should run pick and roll ad nauseum with the shooters we have.

That doesn't mean run it with Roberson which we love to do. It means run the pick and pop with Lydon and Thompson. If the help defender comes off the wing, kick it to the wing shooter. If not, drive to the hoop where Frank needs to get stronger with the ball and Gillon needs to get smarter with his limitations. If both follow you, drop it off to Lydon or Thompson who can both hit the jumper, pass it to an open man or drive the lane.

Give me TT, TL, AW3 front line for PnR offense with Battle as the spot up guard shooter. Still Gillon and Howard need to make better decisions on these plays. I like either TT or TL setting the pick because as you mention they can both shoot or pass to the other down low if they cut. White and Battle cannot be left alone on the perimeter. The big issue is teams have forced the guard to keep the ball and the results have not been good in that situation. Until they become consistent threats to score it themselves on those plays it will be hard for us to score consistently that way.

 

[orangefog]

Bottom line, we need the Wolf.