Some long-winded thoughts...

[TheCusian]

Why throw a bubble screen here? Makes no sense. Loss of three. First drive. I highly doubt this is a read by hunt. This one is not due to poor wr blocking. I wish I weren't so tired would love to do this for every screen

I'm going to chart them from the game. That one was horrible.

 

[007]

Why throw a bubble screen here? Makes no sense. Loss of three. First drive. I highly doubt this is a read by hunt. This one is not due to poor wr blocking. I wish I weren't so tired would love to do this for every screenView attachment 24545

That would be interesting to see all the screen shots of the bubble screens at the snap.

If this is the first drive, that could have been a scripted series of plays. Who was that pass thrown to? The two WRs are releasing down field, and the slot has his back to Hunt (from what I could tell). If the widest WR arced back toward Hunt, maybe. Otherwise, it looks like a mistake.

 

[Rocco]

I'm going to chart them from the game. That one was horrible.

Looking forward to seeing this. Thanks in advance.

 

[SmilinBob]

They have barely even tried to throw deep yet. I'm sure we will see calls this weekend that we haven't seen yet. I am confident that the younger WRs on this team can get behind the coverage and do some damage. A lot comes down to Hunt having the patience for the play to develop.

Agree and not only that but for Hunt to be able to recognize the D and change the call at the line that will take advantage of the situation. The offense needs him to be able to seize any opportunity with his pre snap and after snap reads.

 

[Millhouse]

That would be interesting to see all the screen shots of the bubble screens at the snap.

If this is the first drive, that could have been a scripted series of plays. Who was that pass thrown to? The two WRs are releasing down field, and the slot has his back to Hunt (from what I could tell). If the widest WR arced back toward Hunt, maybe. Otherwise, it looks like a mistake.

There was one on the next possession where the CMU safety took off at the snap and drilled whoever caught it - if that was a hunt read, I don't think it was a bad one, it's just that the safety gambled big time or we do something before the snap that totally gives it away. sorry i didn't take a picture of that, interrupted by a hollering baby.

syracuse in 60 is on again at noon on TW sports (here in rochester anyway)

i don't think WR blocking is to blame for all the bubble screen troubles but need to watch closer

 

[Millhouse]

I'm going to chart them from the game. That one was horrible.

it's just one play but it's an example of how i'm just not buying the whole "we do it to set them up"

if it's a script, throw out the script

 

[Millhouse]

That would be interesting to see all the screen shots of the bubble screens at the snap.

If this is the first drive, that could have been a scripted series of plays. Who was that pass thrown to? The two WRs are releasing down field, and the slot has his back to Hunt (from what I could tell). If the widest WR arced back toward Hunt, maybe. Otherwise, it looks like a mistake.

that one was to the guy with his back to hunt

 

[RF2044]

i don't think WR blocking is to blame for all the bubble screen troubles but need to watch closer

Maybe not ALL of the troubles, but it is a significant factor--especially compared to how effectively most other teams' WRs block on similar plays. Respectfully disagree with you there.

Its a big problem if we are going to continue using screens.

 

[Millhouse]

Maybe not ALL of the troubles, but it is a significant factor--especially compared to how effectively most other teams' WRs block on similar plays. Respectfully disagree with you there.

don't make me explain to my wife why i'm taking pictures of a replay of a game i already sat through

 

[Chip]

don't make me explain to my wife why i'm taking pictures of a replay of a game i already sat through

Honestly, at this point is she even going to ask?

Ummm, what are you doing?

I'm taking pictures of the game so I can post on the SU board to show my theory of where the bubble screen is failing.

Ok then, good night. mutters to herself on the way to bed, at least he's good with the kids, at least he's good with the kids, at least he's good with the kids.


This is what I think happens at my house anyway.

 

[RF2044]

don't make me explain to my wife why i'm taking pictures of a replay of a game i already sat through

To be clear--there are other issues, as well. But the WR blocking on bubble screens is subpar compared to other programs. Hell, when other teams throw bubble screens against us, their WRs wipe out our DBs with cut blocks, springing the play for sizeable gains. Conversely, our WRs can't seem to tie up their men--and if we do get a 5+ yard gain out of those plays, it is almost always based upon the individual effort of the receiver / runner moreso than having "holes" opened with blocking.

 

[upperdeck]

Why throw a bubble screen here? Makes no sense. Loss of three. First drive. I highly doubt this is a read by hunt. This one is not due to poor wr blocking. I wish I weren't so tired would love to do this for every screenView attachment 24545

in that set you have to wonder what the correct read is.. they played man with safety help. that leaves 8 on 7 in the box with hunt being a runner. still if the fake is better the slot DB/safety may attack and then you have hunt come down and throw the bubble with 3 on 2 on the outside. some teams do cut blocks we seem to do the Ole..

 

[Millhouse]

in that set you have to wonder what the correct read is.. they played man with safety help. that leaves 8 on 7 in the box with hunt being a runner. still if the fake is better the slot DB/safety may attack and then you have hunt come down and throw the bubble with 3 on 2 on the outside. some teams do cut blocks we seem to do the Ole..

i think it's about as clear a case as you're going to get to NOT throw the bubble screen and run on them. seems pretty crazy to hope that both the safety and DB will bite so hard on the run that they will be in no position to recover. it's not even a read at that point. "sure, they outnumber us but we think they're going to bite so we don't care that we're outnumbered there"

i just don't think it's a read at all. i think it's just getting guys their touches come hell or high water. it's his turn, doesn't matter what the numbers look like"

it's just one play but how can hunt look at that defense and think, screen is the right read. I don't think it's possible for anyone to make that read, so i don't think it's any sort of option. i think it's just scripted "this is what you're doing" call

oregon and baylor aren't throwing screens to little guys that are outnumbered, they just don't

 

[TheCusian]

Looking forward to seeing this. Thanks in advance.

Sure thing. As promised:

I re-watched the game and focused on the offense. Was looking for the bubble screen and short throws behind the line of scrimmage. Here are my main takeaways, followed by my notes.

1. The bubble screen/RB dive is the bread and butter. It sets up everything else. They fake off of both.
The bubble is inconsistent, as near everyone has mentioned. I thought it was gaining more per attempt but it's not. The dive or inside handoff was a much better play. I didn't chart it - but our line was blowing them off the ball all day long.

2. The bubble screen or short throw to the RB in the flat was run 10 plays of the 80 and went for an average of 1.8 yards.

3. The threat of these two plays or 1 play with multiple options - creates openings all over the field.
The 3rd drive of the day was as fine a throwing series as Hunt had all day. Every pass was a playaction pass or a fake bubble and then a throw down field. Very effective.

4. I think if we were better at blocking or our guys were actually making 4-7 yards per bubble, the whole playbook would be wide open. I think this is what McDonald has in mind. Sound concept, lacking in execution.

5. In the 6th drive of the game, we fake the bubble and Ashton has his man beat about two yards from the end zone. Nice to see the fake and then a deep throw off of it. Need more of this.

Here are my notes:

First Half (4 bubbles, 10yds, avg: 2.5yds):
-----------------------------------

Drive 1, Starts on the SU 35.
- Bubble to Flemming on 1st and 10 for -3 yards. Faked the handoff to the RB, looked like a set call not a pre-snap read. Otherwise a decent drive.
- Drive ends in FG attempt. Missed.

Drive 2, Starts on the SU 31.
- Bubble to Custis on 1st and 10 (1st play of drive) to the short side of the field for 1 yard. Not bad blocking from West, Custis couldn't make man miss. Faked the handoff to RB. Nice play by CMU defender. Was helped by sideline.
- Drive ends in FG attempt. Made.

- Hodge scores off of CMU fumble.

Drive 3, Starts on the SU 30.
- Bubble to McFarlane on 1st and 10 (1st play of drive) for 9 yards*. Caught it way behind the line, but made 1st guy miss, other was blocked.
- Bubble to Custis on 1st and 10 for 3 yards. Made one guy miss but fell forward for gain.

Drive 4, Starts on the SU 5 with 26 seconds left after Desir penalty. Stupid series, should have just knelt down.



Second Half (6 bubbles, 8yds, avg: 1.3yds):
-----------------------------------

Drive 5, Starts on the SU 20.
- Bubble to Gulley on 1st and 10 (1st play of the drive) for 3 yards*. Announcer rightly called it a long handoff. Well covered by CMU.
- Weird pop pass from Hunt on run. Passed to Gulley at last minute. Gulley dropped it. I'm not counting it as a bubble/screen.
- Bubble to Ameen-Moore for no gain on 3rd and 4. Incomplete*. Bad throw from Hunt. Had room to run. Blown coverage.

- Dixon pins them deep, Lynch with the safety.

Drive 6, Starts on the SU 28.
- Fake bubble to Ashton, deep (20+yds). Was open, Hunt missed the throw by a bit. But good to see.

Drive 7, Starts on the SU 26.
- Erv Phillips show. Kid looks good.
- Bubble screen to short side of the field to Flemming on 2nd and 6. Incomplete. Nearly INT.
- Bubble not open. Hunt pulls it down for a 1yd run. Good decision.

Drive 8, Starts on the CMU 19, after muffed/fumbled KO.
- Great throw to Cornellius.
- Hunt runs in for TD.

Drive 9, Starts on SU 27.
- Another weird pop pass on 1st and 10, this time planned out; to McFarlane for 6 yards. Still not calling it a bubble. Awkward. Out of two back set.
- Bubble to Gulley on 2nd and 4, good for 2 yards*. Out of two back set.
- Bubble to Phillips on 2nd and 10 for 1 yard*.

Drive 10, Starts on CMU 49.
- No bubble attempts.

- Missed FG.

Drive 11, Starts on SU 10.
- Bubble to Custis on 1st and 10, for a 2 yard gain. Not bad. Not good. Keeping them honest, likely.
- Nice series by Ameen-Moore. Big run.
- Hunt with his last TD run.

Random observations:
- Those saying there is no play-action are insane - they fake on near ever play in the 1st Q. Started mixing in faking the bubble and getting guys down the middle in 2nd Q. Just about every play is a fake handoff up the middle or a fake bubble.
- Offensive line was dominant. Pushing everyone off the line.
- Announcer says virtually every play has a run, screen, downfield option.
- 1st Q, CMU ready for bubble - but near everything else works. Few bad throws derail the 1st drive. Gulley out of bounds on would be TD catch on 2nd drive. Nicest Hunt drive throwing the ball all year in 3rd drive.
- "Lightening Seeds the band" conversation by announcers really awkward.
- McFarlane did get injured in the 3rd drive of game on 4th and inches. Came back in.
- Is a behind the line throw to a RB a bubble or a screen?
- Estime and Boryld had a nice games, consistently open.
- 5 tipped passes between LB's and Dline.

 

[Millhouse]

Sure thing. As promised:

I re-watched the game and focused on the offense. Was looking for the bubble screen and short throws behind the line of scrimmage. Here are my main takeaways, followed by my notes.

1. The bubble screen/RB dive is the bread and butter. It sets up everything else. They fake off of both.
The bubble is inconsistent, as near everyone has mentioned. I thought it was gaining more per attempt but it's not. The dive or inside handoff was a much better play. I didn't chart it - but our line was blowing them off the ball all day long.

2. The bubble screen or short throw to the RB in the flat was run 10 plays of the 80 and went for an average of 1.8 yards.

3. The threat of these two plays or 1 play with multiple options - creates openings all over the field.
The 3rd drive of the day was as fine a throwing series as Hunt had all day. Every pass was a playaction pass or a fake bubble and then a throw down field. Very effective.

4. I think if we were better at blocking or our guys were actually making 4-7 yards per bubble, the whole playbook would be wide open. I think this is what McDonald has in mind. Sound concept, lacking in execution.

5. In the 6th drive of the game, we fake the bubble and Ashton has his man beat about two yards from the end zone. Nice to see the fake and then a deep throw off of it. Need more of this.

Here are my notes:

First Half (4 bubbles, 10yds, avg: 2.5yds):
-----------------------------------

Drive 1, Starts on the SU 35.
- Bubble to Flemming on 1st and 10 for -3 yards. Faked the handoff to the RB, looked like a set call not a pre-snap read. Otherwise a decent drive.
- Drive ends in FG attempt. Missed.

Drive 2, Starts on the SU 31.
- Bubble to Custis on 1st and 10 (1st play of drive) to the short side of the field for 1 yard. Not bad blocking from West, Custis couldn't make man miss. Faked the handoff to RB. Nice play by CMU defender. Was helped by sideline.
- Drive ends in FG attempt. Made.

- Hodge scores off of CMU fumble.

Drive 3, Starts on the SU 30.
- Bubble to McFarlane on 1st and 10 (1st play of drive) for 9 yards*. Caught it way behind the line, but made 1st guy miss, other was blocked.
- Bubble to Custis on 1st and 10 for 3 yards. Made one guy miss but fell forward for gain.

Drive 4, Starts on the SU 5 with 26 seconds left after Desir penalty. Stupid series, should have just knelt down.



Second Half (6 bubbles, 8yds, avg: 1.3yds):
-----------------------------------

Drive 5, Starts on the SU 20.
- Bubble to Gulley on 1st and 10 (1st play of the drive) for 3 yards*. Announcer rightly called it a long handoff. Well covered by CMU.
- Weird pop pass from Hunt on run. Passed to Gulley at last minute. Gulley dropped it. I'm not counting it as a bubble/screen.
- Bubble to Ameen-Moore for no gain on 3rd and 4. Incomplete*. Bad throw from Hunt. Had room to run. Blown coverage.

- Dixon pins them deep, Lynch with the safety.

Drive 6, Starts on the SU 28.
- Fake bubble to Ashton, deep (20+yds). Was open, Hunt missed the throw by a bit. But good to see.

Drive 7, Starts on the SU 26.
- Erv Phillips show. Kid looks good.
- Bubble screen to short side of the field to Flemming on 2nd and 6. Incomplete. Nearly INT.
- Bubble not open. Hunt pulls it down for a 1yd run. Good decision.

Drive 8, Starts on the CMU 19, after muffed/fumbled KO.
- Great throw to Cornellius.
- Hunt runs in for TD.

Drive 9, Starts on SU 27.
- Another weird pop pass on 1st and 10, this time planned out; to McFarlane for 6 yards. Still not calling it a bubble. Awkward. Out of two back set.
- Bubble to Gulley on 2nd and 4, good for 2 yards*. Out of two back set.
- Bubble to Phillips on 2nd and 10 for 1 yard*.

Drive 10, Starts on CMU 49.
- No bubble attempts.

- Missed FG.

Drive 11, Starts on SU 10.
- Bubble to Custis on 1st and 10, for a 2 yard gain. Not bad. Not good. Keeping them honest, likely.
- Nice series by Ameen-Moore. Big run.
- Hunt with his last TD run.

Random observations:
- Those saying there is no play-action are insane - they fake on near ever play in the 1st Q. Started mixing in faking the bubble and getting guys down the middle in 2nd Q. Just about every play is a fake handoff up the middle or a fake bubble.
- Offensive line was dominant. Pushing everyone off the line.
- Announcer says virtually every play has a run, screen, downfield option.
- 1st Q, CMU ready for bubble - but near everything else works. Few bad throws derail the 1st drive. Gulley out of bounds on would be TD catch on 2nd drive. Nicest Hunt drive throwing the ball all year in 3rd drive.
- "Lightening Seeds the band" conversation by announcers really awkward.
- McFarlane did get injured in the 3rd drive of game on 4th and inches. Came back in.
- Is a behind the line throw to a RB a bubble or a screen?
- Estime and Boryld had a nice games, consistently open.
- 5 tipped passes between LB's and Dline.

thanks. how many of those bubbles should've been thrown in your opinion?

 

[Orangello]

Bubble screen, bubble screen aha ah h ha ha

 

[TheCusian]

thanks. how many of those bubbles should've been thrown in your opinion?

It's tricky to say.

I think it's a bit like establishing the run to get play action going. If you don't run it all, no dice. If you run it, but don't get enough yards - it's effective, but to a point. If you're gashing them for 4-7 yards every carry? Then you get 8 in the box, passing game opens up.

You have to throw some to establish the threat. Same with the RB dive. How many? I don't know. I would question using Custis. Seemed more effective using Estime or a RB on a short pass like a sweep.

 

[TheCusian]

Also: the best defenses will put 7 in the box, and play up on our WR's, and force us to throw over the top or tight throws over the middle. Its imperative that Hunt make these throws and that our guys make the catch.

 

[Millhouse]

It's tricky to say.

I think it's a bit like establishing the run to get play action going. If you don't run it all, no dice. If you run it, but don't get enough yards - it's effective, but to a point. If you're gashing them for 4-7 yards every carry? Then you get 8 in the box, passing game opens up.

You have to throw some to establish the threat. Same with the RB dive. How many? I don't know. I would question using Custis. Seemed more effective using Estime or a RB on a short pass like a sweep.

i just don't see it that way. you run bubble screens to get defenders away from the box so you can run. if they're already away from the box, you can just skip that bubble screen step and run. it's just a way to keep them from cheating to the run. if they're blowing up your bubble screens, they're clearly not cheating.

i'm harping on that first screen because they wanted to establish the bubble when there were 4 defenders on 3 guys. Run the ball!

it's like mcdonald is simply assuming that the defense is cheating to the run and calling the set play accordingly rather than let hunt judge whether the defense is cheating. they don't trust hunt still

 

[OrangeTown]

First off, I've been off the board for the most part since the Nova game. I simply could not handle it. I've been tied up with work and have missed my SU football fix, so I've been reading through the threads for the last hour or so. Some good stuff being tossed around, so I figured I'd add a few lingering thoughts I have thus far.

1. I think it is absolute horseshitt that PSU had their bans lifted, especially on the scholarship end. For what occurred on that campus and then the cover-ups that followed are simply not deserving of any sort of leniencies. That single-handedly cost us the commitment of Daiquan Kelly, who would've been a great fit in this defense. Kelly always said that if PSU offered, he would have to rethink things, but What. Scholly ban lifted, Kelly gets an offer and decommits. I couldn't win watching that PSU/Rutty game, I loathe both schools and fan bases (did make me giggle that Rutty lost at the end at home in front of the Snooky-ites). Kick rocks NCAA, way to baffle everyone again. You too, Kirk Herbstreit for sticking up for them. Clown.

2. The staff had to be incredibly embarrassed after the Nova fiasco, as they should have been. The only thing that could've gone worse was if that poor Nova kicker didn't miss the chip shot. Pretty much everything went wrong in that game. Hunt messed up, McD was a joke, Bullough was a joke, the DE's broke contain every effeing play, and lastly, Shafer was a joke for overseeing the whole ordeal. The Dome was packed (I wasn't there, thankfully or I would've stroked out) and we really needed to come out with a bang, especially with getting a fresh start with all of the freshmen class filling the student section up. The exact opposite happened. Nova is a very good FCS football program, but we should've won that game running away. Rumor has it that ticket sales for Maryland look bleak, so the team will be back to playing in front of a 30-35k actual crowd. Not very good for visiting recruits or the confidence of players.

3. Dear bubble screen: get lost. I understand that McD wants to be TAMU or Oregon, but this roster cannot fulfill the personnel requirements to run that type of offense RIGHT NOW. Every here and now, fine. But not 15-20 times/game. And if you are going to call in a bubble, jailbreak or comeback screen, please only use Broyld, Estime or Philips. Get our playmakers in space.

4. Erv Philips, welcome to Syracuse. I know people can't say enough good things about him, but wow. I got the goosebumps watching him in that one series. The kid is a smooth runner with top-end burst and speed. His biggest issue is that he is so damn skinny. One big pop and he could be down for the count. At the very least, he should be getting 15 touches/game. In my book, he is already #1 amongst the rb's. It will remain a RB-by committee approach the rest of the year IMO, but I guarantee we will see alot more of #14 moving forward. He may not understand blitz protection and other things, but he does not need to right now. When he is on the field, it should be for moving the ball downfield only. Swervin Ervin has only given us limited glimpses, but they were enough to see how good that kid could be for us. Kudos to the staff for finding him.

5. Proud of Hunt. He made a big mistake in game 1 and also got heated at times against CMU, but he held it together and led our offense to 31 points. I like his ability to gain yards when a play breaks down as well as on his designed keepers. He doesn't have a great arm, but he can make any of the throws this offense will need him to make. We really need him to keep progressing as he controls our destiny this year. I'm bullish on him.

6. We need to get Custis in space and throw to him on seam routes. He's not being used correctly on bubble screens. He lacks great burst, which is mandatory if you need to make corners miss you on the outside. He's been wide open the few times I've seen him downfield and is a matchup nightmare for an OLB or even a safety. I'm hoping we see a ball thrown his way this week 20 or 30 yards downfield.

7. Really like what Ishmael brings to the table. He will only improve as he gets more reps, but has shown his ability to block, run good routes and possess great mitts. That catch in traffic when he was flanked by 3 CMU db's was impressive. Was also a great thread by Hunt.

8. Our line play on both sides of the ball improved greatly against CMU. I am still worried and hope to see the improved play this weekend. With a forceful D-line, we are screwed against BC, Pitt and every other team that runs a power offense. Impressed with Foy and Palmer.

9. Loved the uniforms, even though we looked like a version of the Texas Longhorns. We have no control over it, so we may as well embrace them as they aren't changing back anytime soon IMO.


I love this football program more than any other sports team. My whole week's tone is set based on what happened with SU football over the weekend. It's pathetic, but that's what it is. I, along with all of you junkies, want to see Syracuse be on the national stage again. We're 2-0 and that's really all that matters at this point. One game at a time. Next up, Randy Edsall and the Maryland Tortoises who will be our biggest challenge so far. Our staff and players have their work cut out for them, but my eternal orange confidence continues on. We will be 3-0 headed to NYC. Pound salt, Randy.



L. G. O.

Damn, how did I miss this?

Good to see you back, Rocco. I always enjoy your insight.

 

[TheCusian]

i just don't see it that way. you run bubble screens to get defenders away from the box so you can run. if they're already away from the box, you can just skip that bubble screen step and run. it's just a way to keep them from cheating to the run. if they're blowing up your bubble screens, they're clearly not cheating. i'm harping on that first screen because they wanted to establish the bubble when there were 4 defenders on 3 guys. Run the ball! it's like mcdonald is simply assuming that the defense is cheating to the run and calling the set play accordingly rather than let hunt judge whether the defense is cheating. they don't trust hunt still

I agree to an extent. I think they want the defense worried about both. I def agree that they shouldn't script it. If it's there throw it.

 

[Millhouse]

I agree to an extent. I think they want the defense worried about both. I def agree that they shouldn't script it. If it's there throw it.

the offense can be pretty good if its not dependent on these bubble screens and if they get rid of them

throw out the 10 BS passes (get it? get it?) for 18 yards just for the heck of it. cherry picking alert!

12-20, 157 yards passing

49 rushes for 289 yards.

6.4 yards per play running 71% of the time is pretty good. 6.4 would've been top 25 last year. (I know CMU isn't the average team we face, i'm not going to crazy with this)

add those 10 plays back in with that yards per play, that's 510 yards of offense

all big ifs but that's 47 yards difference.

 

[TheCusian]

the offense can be pretty good if its not dependent on these bubble screens and if they get rid of them

throw out the 10 BS passes (get it? get it?) for 18 yards just for the heck of it. cherry picking alert!

12-20, 157 yards passing

49 rushes for 289 yards.

6.4 yards per play running 71% of the time is pretty good. 6.4 would've been top 25 last year. (I know CMU isn't the average team we face, i'm not going to crazy with this)

add those 10 plays back in with that yards per play, that's 510 yards of offense

all big ifs but that's 47 yards difference.

Right - but that does't account for the plays made from the threat of the bubble. There were a few passes, where Hunt would fake the bubble and zip it over the middle for 6-10 yards. Or fake the bubble and run to the opposite side. It does open things up some. If it were effective - it might open up huge gains. I think this is what he's after. Spread the defense out. It's similar to the Eagles offense. Make them play all 50 yards E/W and then get playmakers in space or RB's up the gut.

 

[Millhouse]

Right - but that does't account for the plays made from the threat of the bubble. There were a few passes, where Hunt would fake the bubble and zip it over the middle for 6-10 yards. Or fake the bubble and run to the opposite side. It does open things up some. If it were effective - it might open up huge gains. I think this is what he's after. Spread the defense out. It's similar to the Eagles offense. Make them play all 50 yards E/W and then get playmakers in space or RB's up the gut.

It's nothing like the eagles. The eagles throw it when it's open

 

[Orangeman]

That would be interesting to see all the screen shots of the bubble screens at the snap. If this is the first drive, that could have been a scripted series of plays. Who was that pass thrown to? The two WRs are releasing down field, and the slot has his back to Hunt (from what I could tell). If the widest WR arced back toward Hunt, maybe. Otherwise, it looks like a mistake.

Me thinks you'd be scared to run another bubble screen

Simply, it must be the third option to keep the defense honest, nothing more.

Run straight ahead, throw "deep", then bubble