Some People Aren't Going to Like Hearing This...

[dasher]

I told my wife that it was going to be a fake punt because SU let the play clock expire without any urgency and it wasn't to set up a kick to the 5 yard line. Yep...that was my one right call and I'm going to let everyone know it!

SU left many plays on the field last night and while it seems to be a common theme they are getting in position to score...need to move the ball inside that 30 with a quicker urgency and be a helluva lot more efficient by not shooting themselves in the proverbial foot so ofter with foolish penalties. Loved the Reddish dive pick and Esk's pick 6. The D hawked for the ball very well but still there are many works to be done. Tackled pretty well too.

I think I can beat that. When it was 4th and 2 I told a friend that I have been watching N.D. and they just drop back on the punt. We could fake it and geta first down. Didn't think we would do it at 4th and 7 though.

 

[007]

The overall talent level is on an upwards trend. The defense is making plays despite their deficienies. The offense, while not scoring, seems to be connecting on more big plays despite the lack of playmakers. And it seems to me as though the staff on both sides of the ball is doing a better job than they were at this point last season. This is all I really need to see, both coaching and talent wise we aren't ready to have our "Nebraska Game" just yet -- but if you smooth out the ups and downs and look at the general direction of the program -- the trend is definitely upwards.

I thought that the defense played very well today given the ineptness of our offense early on -- leaving the defense constantly on the field. Eventually ND was going to get plays out of their playmakers. Take away the one busted coverage by our safety going underneath and our defense, while giving up a lot of yards/completions, was fantastic.

The fake punt was brilliant. Everyone knew it was coming on 4th and 2 -- but then after the penalty I turned to my girlfriend and said "well they can't fake it anymore." I'm sure ND thought the same and that's exactly why it worked. The play by Eskridge was 100% set up by Shafer/Bullough, great anticipation of Kelly's adjustments. On offense we finally threw some deep balls and even a fake bubble where West ended up with no defender within 10 yards. These are guys in their 2nd year on the job and they have been badly outcoached in the past at times but just like at the very end of last season we are startng to see flashes that the lightbulb is going on for them.

Anyone who feels pessimstic after this game, please give it time. We were a couple of plays/calls away from beating the 8th ranked team in the country on a neutral field. How you can come away angry about that I will never understand.

Not so sure about the couple plays away part, or how good ND really is; but, really good post, statsgrad. You should post more often!

 

[phil77]

See this is where I don't know what to do about McDonald. One hand he is racking up a ton of yards the last two weeks but not being able to get the team in the end zone. But people cite a great last years recruiting class but that is directly related to McDonald. If talent in our major problem then McDonald must stay.

 

[timkay99]

A lot of replies to the talent issue and couldn't find much mention of the OL.

The reason BC handled USC? They could run the ball behind a powerful OL.

The OL is the reason less talented teams can hang with more talented teams. Our OL is just not very good this year. Hickey and Trudo both aren't playing as well as last year. Miller struggled last night to even get accurate snaps to Hunt. Lasker is a body that has no clue what he is doing.

OL is the key to everything. While we do have some young talent waiting there (namely Aaron Roberts and Denzel Ward), this is one area of recruiting where I believe we have struggled and why JUCO's play quickly for us. We do have some more talent coming in (namely Adams and Conway), but I think there are some other guys that are reaches. When you take guys from an elite high school that other teams aren't in on (since those big schools obviously evaluate those schools heavily), it doesn't tend to work out. Hope I am wrong.

 

[007]

See this is where I don't know what to do about McDonald. One hand he is racking up a ton of yards the last two weeks but not being able to get the team in the end zone. But people cite a great last years recruiting class but that is directly related to McDonald. If talent in our major problem then McDonald must stay.

GM is racking up yards with WRs who rarely get open and can't execute well enough to run a staple of the offense, and absolutely no one on O (other than Hunt) that the D has to game plan for. Ever team left on the schedule is going to play us the same way ND did, I suspect.

 

[007]

A lot of replies to the talent issue and couldn't find much mention of the OL.

The reason BC handled USC? They could run the ball behind a powerful OL.

The OL is the reason less talented teams can hang with more talented teams. Our OL is just not very good this year. Hickey and Trudo both aren't playing as well as last year. Miller struggled last night to even get accurate snaps to Hunt. Lasker is a body that has no clue what he is doing.

OL is the key to everything. While we do have some young talent waiting there (namely Aaron Roberts and Denzel Ward), this is one area of recruiting where I believe we have struggled and why JUCO's play quickly for us. We do have some more talent coming in (namely Adams and Conway), but I think there are some other guys that are reaches. When you take guys from an elite high school that other teams aren't in on (since those big schools obviously evaluate those schools heavily), it doesn't tend to work out. Hope I am wrong.

I appreciate your point about O line play in general.

While our O line is not great, ND loaded the box all night and sent a ton of disguised blitzes. They did a decent job handling that all night. I don't know the number, but how many times was Hunt sacked?

 

[timkay99]

I appreciate your point about O line play in general.

While our O line is not great, ND loaded the box all night and sent a ton of disguised blitzes. They did a decent job handling that all night. I don't know the number, but how many times was Hunt sacked?

Hunt was not sacked. Which speaks (at least to me) to his ability to be elusive. He had guys in his face consistently when passing which resulted in many of his incomplete passes (2 of the first 3 attempts, for example).

I think our O scheme is plenty good, which results in the OL being able to pick up these blitzes. While they can pick them up to give Hunt enough time to try and find a hot read, good OL's create throwing lanes and escape routes while also winning 1 on 1 battles. We just don't win many 1 on 1 battles (and when one of our guys does, someone loses badly causing the play to have to be made by a QB on the run).

 

[Chris02M]

the OP is exactly right it was a talent gap last night not coaching. There DL controlled our running game with just there front

 

[007]

Hunt was not sacked. Which speaks (at least to me) to his ability to be elusive. He had guys in his face consistently when passing which resulted in many of his incomplete passes (2 of the first 3 attempts, for example).

I think our O scheme is plenty good, which results in the OL being able to pick up these blitzes. While they can pick them up to give Hunt enough time to try and find a hot read, good OL's create throwing lanes and escape routes while also winning 1 on 1 battles. We just don't win many 1 on 1 battles (and when one of our guys does, someone loses badly causing the play to have to be made by a QB on the run).

Again, I am not disagreeing with your premise about O line play (btw, it's good to talk with someone who seems to know the game). ND has NFL level talent on their D line and they were schemed to shut down Hunt, shut down the inside zone read, and were more than athletic and physical enough to get out and cover the bubble/perimeter. All I'm saying is against that level of talent disparity and scheme, the O line performed relatively well, with the glaring exception of short yardage situations.

 

[AZOrange]

Talent (including game speed), is the big separator at this level. We have to get more. A lot more.

 

[RF2044]

Talent (including game speed), is the big separator at this level. We have to get more. A lot more.

I can't help but wonder if KJ Williams might have helped.

Guess we'll never know.

 

[timkay99]

Again, I am not disagreeing with your premise about O line play (btw, it's good to talk with someone who seems to know the game). ND has NFL level talent on their D line and they were schemed to shut down Hunt, shut down the inside zone read, and were more than athletic and physical enough to get out and cover the bubble/perimeter. All I'm saying is against that level of talent disparity and scheme, the O line performed relatively well, with the glaring exception of short yardage situations.

I agree, one word responses to thought out posts get really old!

For me, aren't we kind of handicapping our OL and setting us up for future failure by using the fact ND has NFL talent on there DL and we did a decent job? If we want to compete in the ACC, we will be facing NFL talent on the DL nearly every weekend. A lot of the talk has been about adding offensive playmakers, but if we can't block long enough for the WR's to finish their routes or create a hole for a RB w/ elusiveness and speed, those playmakers are for naught. I just can't say the OL performed relatively well when we averaged 3.6 ypc (taking out Dixon), are consistently blown off the ball and had a number of false start penalties.

I have watched a number of Georgia games this year with Gurley and the holes Gurley has to run through (even against the peer level talent of other SEC schools) is substantially better then what we execute. If Gurley ran behind our OL, he would still get some yards but nowhere near what he gets now (probably only get 100 against Notre Dame on 20+ carries with us).

I guess my point is, can we really just rely on Gulley (or that future RB playmaker) making 3 excellent jump cuts to turn a run for a loss into a 7 yard gain consistently against teams with NFL talent on the DL? Big time OL play has the ability to turn avg playmakers into above avg playmakers. I think our OL turns avg playmakers into slightly below avg playmakers.

 

[Chris02M]

I can't help but wonder if KJ Williams might have helped.

Guess we'll never know.

we may next year

 

[RF2044]

I agree, one word responses to thought out posts get really old!

For me, aren't we kind of handicapping our OL and setting us up for future failure by using the fact ND has NFL talent on there DL and we did a decent job? If we want to compete in the ACC, we will be facing NFL talent on the DL nearly every weekend. A lot of the talk has been about adding offensive playmakers, but if we can't block long enough for the WR's to finish their routes or create a hole for a RB w/ elusiveness and speed, those playmakers are for naught. I just can't say the OL performed relatively well when we averaged 3.6 ypc (taking out Dixon), are consistently blown off the ball and had a number of false start penalties.

I have watched a number of Georgia games this year with Gurley and the holes Gurley has to run through (even against the peer level talent of other SEC schools) is substantially better then what we execute. If Gurley ran behind our OL, he would still get some yards but nowhere near what he gets now (probably only get 100 against Notre Dame on 20+ carries with us).

I guess my point is, can we really just rely on Gulley (or that future RB playmaker) making 3 excellent jump cuts to turn a run for a loss into a 7 yard gain consistently against teams with NFL talent on the DL? Big time OL play has the ability to turn avg playmakers into above avg playmakers. I think our OL turns avg playmakers into slightly below avg playmakers.

No, we can't. And think of how many times Gulley slid elusively to avoid the first hit, pick up marginal positive yardage, etc. when it was a jailbreak at the OL.

I am encouraged that we had a solid recruiting haul at OL last year, that those guys are redshirting, and that we have another very solid group coming in this year. We're trending in the right direction.

Another good post.

 

[retro44]

That's my fear too... 4 weeks ago all I read about was this being the fastest and longest and biggest team we have had in a decade. Now all of the sudden we are too slow and too small. This includes last week btw.

Estime is a perfect example... He came from Florida with a rep as a burner... He looks about average to me. What gives?

well players here up on the hill seem to get slower under Hicks from their freshmen year beyond

 

[jec1521]

Is this really news? We don't have much talent... but we have done more with less. Also, it is on an upward trend, as was already stated.

I can certainly see how n NFL scout would say these things, especially put up against Notre Dame. They are Notre Dame after all. They get Top 10 recruiting classes every single year.

I was sitting in the 1st row behind one of the endzones last night. When they got to my side of the field, the difference in size of the linemen was drastic, to say the least. Each position it looked like they had 20-30 lb advantages.

My main concern right now is the coaching way before the talent. As I said, we have done more with less. I always liked Shafer, but as of right now, I am not convinced that he is the guy. But who knows, I felt the same way about Marrone after his first 2 years, so they could get better.

 

[007]

I agree, one word responses to thought out posts get really old!

For me, aren't we kind of handicapping our OL and setting us up for future failure by using the fact ND has NFL talent on there DL and we did a decent job? If we want to compete in the ACC, we will be facing NFL talent on the DL nearly every weekend. A lot of the talk has been about adding offensive playmakers, but if we can't block long enough for the WR's to finish their routes or create a hole for a RB w/ elusiveness and speed, those playmakers are for naught. I just can't say the OL performed relatively well when we averaged 3.6 ypc (taking out Dixon), are consistently blown off the ball and had a number of false start penalties.

I have watched a number of Georgia games this year with Gurley and the holes Gurley has to run through (even against the peer level talent of other SEC schools) is substantially better then what we execute. If Gurley ran behind our OL, he would still get some yards but nowhere near what he gets now (probably only get 100 against Notre Dame on 20+ carries with us).

I guess my point is, can we really just rely on Gulley (or that future RB playmaker) making 3 excellent jump cuts to turn a run for a loss into a 7 yard gain consistently against teams with NFL talent on the DL? Big time OL play has the ability to turn avg playmakers into above avg playmakers. I think our OL turns avg playmakers into slightly below avg playmakers.

Yeah, I hear you and agree with that. There is a larger issue at play here and part of that is the overall talent on both sides of the ball. There is always an interaction effect between talent, execution, coaching/schemes and overall productivity. If we make the assumption that the talent and execution part of the equation is equally "limited," than the O line performed relatively well last night IMO. But, they were far from efficient or even good enough to get it done.

 

[anglerman]

I watched the game with a very, very, very knowledgable NFL front office person tonight. Despite all of our laments about referees, missed fields goals, GMac, and Hunt, we as fans over looked one other aspect of this game -- talent. He has personally evaluated a lot of players on this year's team.

We as fans tend to overestimate our talent or somehow believe that a perfectly coached game can lead us to a win. Sometimes the other team is just better. And ND was just better. We are also a damn slow football team.

He actually put some plays on rewind and slowed them down. Our WR's really struggle getting consistent separation. West has nice hands but he made the comment that he is painfully slow and should have had multiple steps on the guy given his release. He likes Gulley but he just isn't fast enough. In his words, "how can you not beat a DE around the edge at this level" on that swing pass.

Our interior OL got blown up by ND's 94 on multiple occasions. He single handedly hurt our run game. Kelly made a poor play on Hunter Jr's TD catch. He hesitated on that route -- he could have blown him up or made a play on the ball. Instead he thought about it and did neither. Also said both our corners are a bit stiff and need to get better.

There were some silver linings I guess. He loved how hard we played for Shafer and co tonight. We played through every whistle and fought hard. He actually likes Hunt as a college QB. He made some decent throws and probably paid in a boatload of pain. In his words, "he's noa top 10 QB, but you could do a hell of a lot worse." He said we'd think differently about him if we had a WR that scared anyone else.

We just have to get better folks. We can nitpick calls all day long, but at the end of the day we do not have the horses to play with top 20 teams yet. Our DL still fails to get push without sending the house, and our skill guys aren't quite skilled enough.

I loved the way these kids competed today. I hope estime and Moore are ok and we get better from here.

look ND has elite talent on both sides of the ball especially defense. Their defensive line is incredible. Maybe as good as I've seen Very few teams have talent that good, unfortunately SU has 3 teams like that on their schedule this year.

 

[swish7]

What about all those 40 times that were reported in the Spring/Summer?

In all seriousness, we know West isn't fast, but Lemon/Sales/Provo weren't burners either. Until the speed is there, it's up to the staff to find a scheme for the talent we have, not the talent we want.

On defense, it doesn't make sense to me that we put corners on an island and pray the blitz gets to the QB fast enough.

Our corner, #1, Whitman?, was really an issue. Very slow to swivel his hips and react to the receiver's cut. He'd play 7 yards off, the receiver would sprint to him, and our #1 would be in a full on backwards sprint, the receiever would cut, and be two steps into his break before #1's hips were swivelled and moving back towards the receiver. Game over.

It was a heroic effort from out team given the talent disparity.

 

[Alsacs]

Our coaches weren't the problem. Sharer pulled a lot of the bag of tricks. We were +4 in TO margin and after the first quarter I never felt we could win. Our D gave ND those screens all night and they took what we have them.
Our offense was mediocre all night. I wants points not yards. The offense scored 9 points with all those yards it scored 9 points.
We need to use this money we got from MetLife and use it to hire an elite recruiter. I don't care if this coach can do his job well we just need talent. McDonald has been an okay recruiter and I like a couple of the young kids but we need even more talent.

 

[SUFan44]

Honestly I think the most suspect coach on the staff is Fred Reed. Our secondary - especially Whigham and Morgan - haven't improved at all (I know Morgan is hurt, but even before he was not getting the job done). Whigham was one of the more highly thought of kids in that recruiting class and supposedly was trying to get pulled to Miami if I'm not mistaken. Can't tell me he doesn't have the aptitude to play at a higher level.

 

[anomander]

I just went back to check the classes for Notre Dame recruiting to 2010 and they have had a total of 9 five stars and 52 four stars since 2010.Nuff Said!!I really don't watch the star system but at least 90 % of these guy's had to be creditable.

stop that stars don't matter hahaha.

Looks like we are in for long haul then because the talent is changing anytime soon.

Was anything said about another 4 more false starts, and a ton of more undisciplined play?

 

[anomander]

Talent (including game speed), is the big separator at this level. We have to get more. A lot more.

Playmakers, besides Erv, there are none. We have a bunch of role players and possession guys, that play hard, undisciplined football. And when you don't have the talent advantage you can't keep trying to go to the outside where the speed advantage is the most evident. I'm not pawning this totally off on talent. A little bit of smarts would help. Our defensive scheme was to not get beat by 6 td's on national tv. We literally gave them the bubble screen all night long, for a tune of 25 straight completions. I need to see a lot of improvement from everyone before anyone is scraping free of blame.

 

[O-pulse]

I know this will not make a lot of people happy either but if our older talent sucks lets play the younger guys. If we are going to be bad anyway be bad with talented youth. Play Ish and Custis more. Philips and Morris more. Let the kids play and see what we have.

Have you not noticed the amount of young players getting playing time? It's a slew. However we still need the season players like West to keep us in games while the young guys are developing.

 

[RF2044]

Honestly I think the most suspect coach on the staff is Fred Reed. Our secondary - especially Whigham and Morgan - haven't improved at all (I know Morgan is hurt, but even before he was not getting the job done). Whigham was one of the more highly thought of kids in that recruiting class and supposedly was trying to get pulled to Miami if I'm not mistaken. Can't tell me he doesn't have the aptitude to play at a higher level.

I tend to agree. To me, that's the weak link in the coaching staff--bar none.