Some thoughts...

[kyleslamb]

I want to, again, apologize for involving myself in the officiating thread last night. We wholly disagree on that issue, but there was nothing to be gained by going tit-for-tat on that. So again, accept my apologies for mixing it up... it is a lost cause. With that out of the way, I only ask that this specific thread be left void of officiating talk. I'm committing to setting that issue aside, so please do me the favor of keeping it out of here. Fair?

* I thought the biggest key was Syracuse getting no points in transition. I said yesterday, though I was scorned for it, that Ohio State was really good at limiting teams in transition. Ohio State works hard on getting back to get their defense set and they try to limit turnovers. In fairness, Syracuse missed two lay-ups in the first half and had a secondary break on the alley-oop that Amir Williams didn't get back to defend, but for the most part, Syracuse didn't get anything before the defense was set -- which was a big deal.

* I thought Syracuse went away from the pick-and-roll with Joseph/Waiters a bit too soon. I noticed they had a few of those mismatches on the OSU bigs in the first half, though they were on switches. Nonetheless, the pick-and-roll has been Ohio State's biggest weakness defensively all year, and that clear-out they did on the wing with a pick-and-roll worked at least 2-3 times that I can remember. In the second half, it appears Syracuse went away from it.

* A big key, in my mind, was Ohio State keeping Scoop Jardine out of the lane for much of the game. The offense seems to revolve around him at the beginning, and by forcing everything in the second half to his left off ball screens, Ohio State seemed to cut off penetration. Syracuse did have that one pick-and-roll from Jardine to Keita (if memory serves me correctly) where he flashed inside and Jardine delivered a pass for an easy dunk as Sullinger had shown on the screen. There were a few times I thought Jardine missed an open look on that play.

* What can I say about Waiters? That guy is the real deal. I've seen a lot of good players this year, even against Ohio State, and I haven't seen someone that gets to the rim as well as he does. Ohio State did a decent job against him, but I don't think they stopped him once without getting help defense inside. He's so quick and has tremendous touch inside.

* Ohio State did a magnificent job executing their game plan. In the first half, they really worked the high-low with Thomas/Sullinger (and Williams when he came in). As the Syracuse defense dropped a bit and took away the baseline, Ohio State worked the baseline post area. Truthfully, Syracuse couldn't have done more than they did to stop Sullinger, but he's just that effective at finishing. The shots he was making were usually contested and a few of them were from difficult angles. This was definitely a game where Fab Melo would have helped as his strength and length may have challenged Sullinger a bit more.

Honestly, I said this yesterday and I mean it: I don't think the Syracuse guards get nearly enough credit. I think the 2-3 zone gets so much media attention, the zone has become larger than the actual players executing it. Make no mistake: the players in that zone are long and active. I absolutely am impressed with how difficult they make passing lanes and shot attempts. They cover so much ground it's unbelievable.

That said, the offense should be getting even more credit with or without Melo. Waiters is going to be a stud in the NBA. I don't know about the other guys and how their games will translate at the next level, necessarily, but Scoop Jardine, Brandon Triche, C.J. Fair, Kris Joseph and James Southerland -- these guys are terrific college scorers and compliment one another really well.

KenPom gave a team with Ohio State's efficiency margin a 64 percent chance of winning yesterday. That's more a way of saying they might win 64 times if they played out of 100. That sounds about right, I suppose, but play these two teams 10 times and I think my money would be on 5-5. Yesterday was a coin flip. Ohio State is a great team that had to execute their gameplan to near perfection to win the game. They were able to defend Syracuse and limit easy shots. If they laced them up again tomorrow, would they be able to do the same? Hard to say. I was a bit of a skeptic about Syracuse without Melo. I'm not any longer. It's a shame these things have to come to an end so abruptly.

 

[pfister1]

Syracuse is the better team. Poor officiating kept the better team from playing the better game on the court.

We also had a few too many missed bunnies and unforced turnovers.

 

[kyleslamb]

Well that didn't last long.

 

[jdubs30]

Well that didn't last long.

It's honestly hard to fairly evaluate the game because we couldn't get into a flow with the fouls being called. Sullinger and Thomas got there's, which was fine with us; Buford hit a few shots, but was fairly quiet for the most part; Craft didn't score really; Smith was the difference in the game. He scores at his average or misses those 2 3s down the stretch, we probably win.

I don't think OSU's game plan was particularly good honestly. YOu have 2 really terrific players in Sullinger and Thomas that kept you in the game, then Smith at the end won it for you. But I don't think you attacked the zone well.

 

[DoctorBombay]

I want to, again, apologize for involving myself in the officiating thread last night. We wholly disagree on that issue, but there was nothing to be gained by going tit-for-tat on that. So again, accept my apologies for mixing it up... it is a lost cause. With that out of the way, I only ask that this specific thread be left void of officiating talk. I'm committing to setting that issue aside, so please do me the favor of keeping it out of here. Fair?

* I thought the biggest key was Syracuse getting no points in transition. I said yesterday, though I was scorned for it, that Ohio State was really good at limiting teams in transition. Ohio State works hard on getting back to get their defense set and they try to limit turnovers. In fairness, Syracuse missed two lay-ups in the first half and had a secondary break on the alley-oop that Amir Williams didn't get back to defend, but for the most part, Syracuse didn't get anything before the defense was set -- which was a big deal.

* I thought Syracuse went away from the pick-and-roll with Joseph/Waiters a bit too soon. I noticed they had a few of those mismatches on the OSU bigs in the first half, though they were on switches. Nonetheless, the pick-and-roll has been Ohio State's biggest weakness defensively all year, and that clear-out they did on the wing with a pick-and-roll worked at least 2-3 times that I can remember. In the second half, it appears Syracuse went away from it.

* A big key, in my mind, was Ohio State keeping Scoop Jardine out of the lane for much of the game. The offense seems to revolve around him at the beginning, and by forcing everything in the second half to his left off ball screens, Ohio State seemed to cut off penetration. Syracuse did have that one pick-and-roll from Jardine to Keita (if memory serves me correctly) where he flashed inside and Jardine delivered a pass for an easy dunk as Sullinger had shown on the screen. There were a few times I thought Jardine missed an open look on that play.

* What can I say about Waiters? That guy is the real deal. I've seen a lot of good players this year, even against Ohio State, and I haven't seen someone that gets to the rim as well as he does. Ohio State did a decent job against him, but I don't think they stopped him once without getting help defense inside. He's so quick and has tremendous touch inside.

* Ohio State did a magnificent job executing their game plan. In the first half, they really worked the high-low with Thomas/Sullinger (and Williams when he came in). As the Syracuse defense dropped a bit and took away the baseline, Ohio State worked the baseline post area. Truthfully, Syracuse couldn't have done more than they did to stop Sullinger, but he's just that effective at finishing. The shots he was making were usually contested and a few of them were from difficult angles. This was definitely a game where Fab Melo would have helped as his strength and length may have challenged Sullinger a bit more.

Honestly, I said this yesterday and I mean it: I don't think the Syracuse guards get nearly enough credit. I think the 2-3 zone gets so much media attention, the zone has become larger than the actual players executing it. Make no mistake: the players in that zone are long and active. I absolutely am impressed with how difficult they make passing lanes and shot attempts. They cover so much ground it's unbelievable.

That said, the offense should be getting even more credit with or without Melo. Waiters is going to be a stud in the NBA. I don't know about the other guys and how their games will translate at the next level, necessarily, but Scoop Jardine, Brandon Triche, C.J. Fair, Kris Joseph and James Southerland -- these guys are terrific college scorers and compliment one another really well.

KenPom gave a team with Ohio State's efficiency margin a 64 percent chance of winning yesterday. That's more a way of saying they might win 64 times if they played out of 100. That sounds about right, I suppose, but play these two teams 10 times and I think my money would be on 5-5. Yesterday was a coin flip. Ohio State is a great team that had to execute their gameplan to near perfection to win the game. They were able to defend Syracuse and limit easy shots. If they laced them up again tomorrow, would they be able to do the same? Hard to say. I was a bit of a skeptic about Syracuse without Melo. I'm not any longer. It's a shame these things have to come to an end so abruptly.

Good write-up, & appreciate the positive thoughts.
It was a hard-fought game & we hated to lose, but I for one have no bone to pick w/ OSU.
Best of luck to the Buckeyes.

 

[RMH44]

I want to, again, apologize for involving myself in the officiating thread last night. We wholly disagree on that issue, but there was nothing to be gained by going tit-for-tat on that. So again, accept my apologies for mixing it up... it is a lost cause. With that out of the way, I only ask that this specific thread be left void of officiating talk. I'm committing to setting that issue aside, so please do me the favor of keeping it out of here. Fair?

* I thought the biggest key was Syracuse getting no points in transition. I said yesterday, though I was scorned for it, that Ohio State was really good at limiting teams in transition. Ohio State works hard on getting back to get their defense set and they try to limit turnovers. In fairness, Syracuse missed two lay-ups in the first half and had a secondary break on the alley-oop that Amir Williams didn't get back to defend, but for the most part, Syracuse didn't get anything before the defense was set -- which was a big deal.

* I thought Syracuse went away from the pick-and-roll with Joseph/Waiters a bit too soon. I noticed they had a few of those mismatches on the OSU bigs in the first half, though they were on switches. Nonetheless, the pick-and-roll has been Ohio State's biggest weakness defensively all year, and that clear-out they did on the wing with a pick-and-roll worked at least 2-3 times that I can remember. In the second half, it appears Syracuse went away from it.

* A big key, in my mind, was Ohio State keeping Scoop Jardine out of the lane for much of the game. The offense seems to revolve around him at the beginning, and by forcing everything in the second half to his left off ball screens, Ohio State seemed to cut off penetration. Syracuse did have that one pick-and-roll from Jardine to Keita (if memory serves me correctly) where he flashed inside and Jardine delivered a pass for an easy dunk as Sullinger had shown on the screen. There were a few times I thought Jardine missed an open look on that play.

* What can I say about Waiters? That guy is the real deal. I've seen a lot of good players this year, even against Ohio State, and I haven't seen someone that gets to the rim as well as he does. Ohio State did a decent job against him, but I don't think they stopped him once without getting help defense inside. He's so quick and has tremendous touch inside.

* Ohio State did a magnificent job executing their game plan. In the first half, they really worked the high-low with Thomas/Sullinger (and Williams when he came in). As the Syracuse defense dropped a bit and took away the baseline, Ohio State worked the baseline post area. Truthfully, Syracuse couldn't have done more than they did to stop Sullinger, but he's just that effective at finishing. The shots he was making were usually contested and a few of them were from difficult angles. This was definitely a game where Fab Melo would have helped as his strength and length may have challenged Sullinger a bit more.

Honestly, I said this yesterday and I mean it: I don't think the Syracuse guards get nearly enough credit. I think the 2-3 zone gets so much media attention, the zone has become larger than the actual players executing it. Make no mistake: the players in that zone are long and active. I absolutely am impressed with how difficult they make passing lanes and shot attempts. They cover so much ground it's unbelievable.

That said, the offense should be getting even more credit with or without Melo. Waiters is going to be a stud in the NBA. I don't know about the other guys and how their games will translate at the next level, necessarily, but Scoop Jardine, Brandon Triche, C.J. Fair, Kris Joseph and James Southerland -- these guys are terrific college scorers and compliment one another really well.

KenPom gave a team with Ohio State's efficiency margin a 64 percent chance of winning yesterday. That's more a way of saying they might win 64 times if they played out of 100. That sounds about right, I suppose, but play these two teams 10 times and I think my money would be on 5-5. Yesterday was a coin flip. Ohio State is a great team that had to execute their gameplan to near perfection to win the game. They were able to defend Syracuse and limit easy shots. If they laced them up again tomorrow, would they be able to do the same? Hard to say. I was a bit of a skeptic about Syracuse without Melo. I'm not any longer. It's a shame these things have to come to an end so abruptly.

Agreed...with all the media focus on Craft (who is, I mean was, my fav Buckeye) Scoop took him to the cleaners with 14 points, 6 assists and only 2 TO's. Dion had an off night but Brandon picked-up the slack.

We'll never know who is the better team because the ref's completely ruined the flow of the game...i.e. Zero transition points for either team. If Smith, Jr doesn't go off you loose.

 

[kyleslamb]

It's honestly hard to fairly evaluate the game because we couldn't get into a flow with the fouls being called. Sullinger and Thomas got there's, which was fine with us; Buford hit a few shots, but was fairly quiet for the most part; Craft didn't score really; Smith was the difference in the game. He scores at his average or misses those 2 3s down the stretch, we probably win.

I don't think OSU's game plan was particularly good honestly. YOu have 2 really terrific players in Sullinger and Thomas that kept you in the game, then Smith at the end won it for you. But I don't think you attacked the zone well.

Isn't the point of a gameplan to get your best players in a position to make plays?

You can say Ohio State didn't attack the zone that well, but they had the third-best points per possession of all Syracuse opponents all season. Wisconsin and Cincinnati were the only ones that had more, but both of them made double-digit 3-pointers. Ohio State had just four made 3-pointers all-game. If you ask me, that's a pretty good job of "attacking" the zone. It required great ball movement to get the ball inside to Sullinger. You can't just get it on the wing and dump it inside as you can against a man defense. It requires several ball reversals to move the zone and get a passing lane. Ohio State was getting several high-low looks in the first half to get the ball down on the baseline.

I dunno. Ohio State has great players and they made great plays. Sure. But they put those guys in a position to make plays.

 

[kyleslamb]

Agreed...with all the media focus on Craft (who is, I mean was, my fav Buckeye) Scoop took him to the cleaners with 14 points, 6 assists and only 2 TO's. Dion had an off night but Brandon picked-up the slack.

We'll never know who is the better team because the ref's completely ruined the flow of the game...i.e. Zero transition points for either team. If Smith, Jr doesn't go off you loose.

Scoop was just 5-of-12 from the field. To his credit, he didn't turn the ball over (as you mentioned), but if I can hold the opposing point guard to 41% shooting and force a couple turnovers on the side, I've done my job. That wound up being about a point per possession.

 

[RoysRunts]

More Fouls than the 6 OT Game

 

[RMH44]

Scoop was just 5-of-12 from the field. To his credit, he didn't turn the ball over (as you mentioned), but if I can hold the opposing point guard to 41% shooting and force a couple turnovers on the side, I've done my job. That wound up being about a point per possession.

Craft would fit in perfectly on PITT where the MO is to bump, grind and otherwise dare the officials to call fouls as defined. Craft would have been sitting next to Sullinger if refs had any balls.

 

[jdubs30]

Isn't the point of a gameplan to get your best players in a position to make plays?

You can say Ohio State didn't attack the zone that well, but they had the third-best points per possession of all Syracuse opponents all season. Wisconsin and Cincinnati were the only ones that had more, but both of them made double-digit 3-pointers. Ohio State had just four made 3-pointers all-game. If you ask me, that's a pretty good job of "attacking" the zone. It required great ball movement to get the ball inside to Sullinger. You can't just get it on the wing and dump it inside as you can against a man defense. It requires several ball reversals to move the zone and get a passing lane. Ohio State was getting several high-low looks in the first half to get the ball down on the baseline.

I dunno. Ohio State has great players and they made great plays. Sure. But they put those guys in a position to make plays.

Well you made 31 FTs.

And no, they didn't do a very good job of attacking; although, they had one day to prepare for it and haven't really seen it before, so it wasn't totally their fault. I thought Wisconsin did a way better job.

 

[kyleslamb]

Craft would fit in perfectly on PITT where the MO is to bump, grind and otherwise dare the officials to call fouls as defined. Craft would have been sitting next to Sullinger if refs had any balls.

Is it really too much to ask to keep officiating out of one thread? There are literally dozens of places to discuss that. All I'm asking for is one thread to discuss the game without the interference of that topic.

Also, the "if Smith, Jr. doesn't go off you loose (sic)" line doesn't make sense. First of all, 'I' would not have lost, as 'I' was not playing. However, if a player doesn't make plays in a tight game, the other team might win? That's an interesting concept. The point of a team is to have five players on the court making plays. If you're trying to diminish a win based on a player making plays, that's the ultimate slap in the face to the team that won the game. You know what? If Michael Jordan didn't make that shot against the Jazz 1998, they lose game six! Amazing, yes? I don't understand the 'if this happened' or 'if this didn't happen' game. It did happen.

 

[kd bart]

The poor officiating killed the flow of the game.

 

[Ghost]

I would echo the sentiments of whomever said you couldn't evaluate these teams off the games last night. If you think you could, in that game, with that officiating you would be wrong.

To be fair Ohio State may beat us 5 out of 10, or 6 out of 10. They're a good team, but I feel no more qualified to assess how these teams match-up today than I did on Friday night.

You can talk about Sullinger being out on one of the two calls that went against you in the first half, but the fact is it didn't matter that he was out. The officials made sure of that. They pretty much determined our rotation for the rest of the game. We never had a chance to exploit his absence - we were called for fouls on 65% of your possessions the rest of the half. You were in the double-bonus in the first half and in the bonus with like 13 (just guessing) minutes to go.

You had the four point swing with Triche, you had a 10 second violation go uncalled, you just threw passes out of bounds and magically retained possession - you lose Sullinger on a bogus foul and our whole team gets in foul trouble. Not a fair trade off imo.

No points in transition? Are we supposed to transition off of your free throws?

The pick and roll with Waiters? We could barely keep the kid on the court, he was getting to the rim at will early on, after that he couldn't stay on the court enough to be a difference maker.

That game was crap. Again, we might not be the better team without Fab, but nobody will ever know. Good post by you though, and I do mean that, you guys won and you're making fair arguments, but it's genuinely not what I saw play out.

Good luck (although I hope you lose).

 

[Ghost]

Is it really too much to ask to keep officiating out of one thread? There are literally dozens of places to discuss that. All I'm asking for is one thread to discuss the game without the interference of that topic.

I really don't you can discuss that game without bringing up the officiating. I'm sorry about that, but it WAS the game. The flow of the game, the rotations we used, it was all dictated by officials. To ignore it is to ignore the game itself. Which is fine for you, you won, but not so much for us.

 

[kyleslamb]

Every single person has brought up officiating, despite a simple request to keep that out of one single thread on the board. One thread, I asked if people could keep their thoughts about officials to themselves. Can't even bite your tongue long enough to do that? There are literally dozens of other threads to discuss that, yet people can't keep it to themselves for one thread?

 

[Knicks411]

You had the four point swing with Triche, you had a 10 second violation go uncalled, you just threw passes out of bounds and magically retained possession

Was the 10 second call when Ohio State called a TO after a few seconds? If so (and I remember my buddy bringing it up) I'm about 99% sure a time out call resets the 10 second count.

 

[kyleslamb]

I really don't you can discuss that game without bringing up the officiating. I'm sorry about that, but it WAS the game. The flow of the game, the rotations we used, it was all dictated by officials. To ignore it is to ignore the game itself. Which is fine for you, you won, but not so much for us.

It is possible, you just don't want to. Let's call a spade a spade... there were two coaches that were still calling plays, playing to strategy, etc. There was still a basketball game going on. Bringing it up under the guise of "that was the game" is just a poor excuse for, well, making excuses.

 

[pfister1]

Is it really too much to ask to keep officiating out of one thread? There are literally dozens of places to discuss that. All I'm asking for is one thread to discuss the game without the interference of that topic.

Also, the "if Smith, Jr. doesn't go off you loose (sic)" line doesn't make sense. First of all, 'I' would not have lost, as 'I' was not playing. However, if a player doesn't make plays in a tight game, the other team might win? That's an interesting concept. The point of a team is to have five players on the court making plays. If you're trying to diminish a win based on a player making plays, that's the ultimate slap in the face to the team that won the game. You know what? If Michael Jordan didn't make that shot against the Jazz 1998, they lose game six! Amazing, yes? I don't understand the 'if this happened' or 'if this didn't happen' game. It did happen.

How can you fairly discuss the game without discussing the impact the officials had on it. What doesn't make sense to you about the officiating was so far out of the norm for what we've seen over the last three seasons that it unarguably impacted the result. We had 5 guys with 4+ fouls. We haven't had that kind of foul trouble in any game all season...probably not in the prior 3. Our coach hasn't been T'd up in 3 years because he doesn't typically get that amped (unlike when he was younger) about poor officiating. Discussing the game without discussing the impact the officiating had on it is like discussing the game and saying if "Smith, Jr. doesn't go off". The officiating was beyond horrendous...it completely changed the way the teams played the game.

 

[pearl31]

It is possible, you just don't want to. Let's call a spade a spade... there were two coaches that were still calling plays, playing to strategy, etc. There was still a basketball game going on. Bringing it up under the guise of "that was the game" is just a poor excuse for, well, making excuses.

Riiiight. OK.

 

[br801]

I want to, again, apologize for involving myself in the officiating thread last night. We wholly disagree on that issue, but there was nothing to be gained by going tit-for-tat on that. So again, accept my apologies for mixing it up... it is a lost cause. With that out of the way, I only ask that this specific thread be left void of officiating talk. I'm committing to setting that issue aside, so please do me the favor of keeping it out of here. Fair?

blah
blah
blah

I can't speak for everyone here, but I'm really not interested in reading what you have to say. Go celebrate your win on your own board.

 

[Stern]

SU left too many easy points on the court last night. Especially in the first half. Missed layups, it became comical at a certain point. That is why SU loss. Even without Fab if SU makes the easy layups they win that game.

 

[rstone7727]

I hate people that complain about officiating so I rarely if ever complain about it. The theory is that you should never put yourself in a position to let the refs decide the game. This game was different in the sense that the officials set the tone of the game from the outset. The 2nd foul on Sully was bogus, as were a few others called against the Buckeyes. The officials however did manage the outcome of this game by calling way too many touch fouls against SU. IMO the officials over compensated for Sully's two first half fouls by allowing him to do whatever he wanted to do in the second half. I laughed when he put his head into Southerland's chest and plowed right through him with no call. It was a different game on each end of the court.

 

[Ghost]

Was the 10 second call when Ohio State called a TO after a few seconds? If so (and I remember my buddy bringing it up) I'm about 99% sure a time out call resets the 10 second count.

No, Craft was still a few feet behind half-court, the shot clock hit 24 and I think Scoop knocked it out of bounds. If they haven't crossed half court yet and the shot clock says 24, that has to be a 10 second though, no? There was no timeout, the ball as knocked out of bounds either on the pass or the tip. Maybe because he was in the act of passing it's fine? Not sure...someone will probably know.

 

[Ghost]

It is possible, you just don't want to. Let's call a spade a spade... there were two coaches that were still calling plays, playing to strategy, etc. There was still a basketball game going on. Bringing it up under the guise of "that was the game" is just a poor excuse for, well, making excuses.

No, when the strategy is dictated by officiating, and bogus fouls determine whose on the court that's not really anything anyone wants to discuss. It's all directly tied to the officiating. If you think a basketball game is about free throws and forced substitutions on bogus fouls, well, talk away.

So, what do you want to talk about? Our lack of transition? What were we going to transition off of? Foul shots? That's not really our strength. Every time you committed a turnover we were called for a foul. We weren't transitioning off of that.

Our deep bench? Most of them fouled out.

Our rebounding troubles? Well, that played out as expected.

Sullinger in deep? He has a nice move where he lowers his shoulder, I'm okay with play on for those, but we were called for fouls even when he did turn it over. Tripped on his own foot - foul on Keita! Turnaround jumper with no contact - foul on Rak! Lowers shoulder knocks down defender - the first one was called when he bulled over Joseph, after that it wasn't. Not sure what changed and why it isn't a foul in the 2nd half. You guys are a good team, a very good team, and I would like to have seen what would happen if we had competent officiating.

No clue if we win or not, but it would have been fun!

Smith was outstanding though, and Craft is gritty player that plays great defense, we didn't finish well though even when we did get to the rim and that hurt a lot.