Sorta OT: Worst Knicks team ever? | Syracusefan.com

Sorta OT: Worst Knicks team ever?

The amazing part is people are actually showing up at the garden, and paying a fortune to be there.
 
as a die hard NYK fan, its just more of the same old same old from Dolan

the team is a mess, Jackson is a mess, hiring him was a mess

its a shame the Sixers dumped MCW. 2 more years and I'd gladly have switched prime loyalties (I always liked they 6rs anyhow)
 
I feel for diehard Knicks fans, this team is beyond turrible. Dolan should give refunds. Whatta mess. As a Cleveland fan, I am grateful, though, for him giving the Cavs JR, Iman and, in a round-about way, Mosgov.
http://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2015...reverse-dunk-cavaliers-knicks-lebron-reaction
Yeah this team is atrocious, but as a diehard Knicks fan I want them to be as bad as possible. Hopefully we can get Okafor and a couple of good players in free agency, and be a semi decent team in the next few years.
 
The NBA has to find a way to get better parity. That game was embarrassing.
 
as a die hard NYK fan, its just more of the same old same old from Dolan

the team is a mess, Jackson is a mess, hiring him was a mess

its a shame the Sixers dumped MCW. 2 more years and I'd gladly have switched prime loyalties (I always liked they 6rs anyhow)

How is Jackson a mess? He hasn't even been there for a season!

The only thing I question was the Chandler trade. Seems they could've gotten more for him. What would Cleveland have given up for him midseason?
 
How is Jackson a mess? He hasn't even been there for a season!

The only thing I question was the Chandler trade. Seems they could've gotten more for him. What would Cleveland have given up for him midseason?


show me something he's done really well

  • (not Jax's fault) his hire was as messed up messed up as Lester's for OC. no selection process, no other interviews, etc. for a man with exactly 0.0 experience doing what he is being hired to do.
  • his hiring of Fish as a coach wasn't horrible, but the process of chasing Kerr with no alternate clear plan or methodology was
  • his roster building has been terrible so far. show me anything he has done so far to make you say "YES!!! That's a building block for the future!!!" I know this was a lost year, but no one thought it would be this piss poor, especially Jax
  • you mentioned lack of return for Tyson, how about Shump? I'm no GM and I know rumors are exactly that- rumors, but based on long running speculations surrounding players and/or picks they could've gotten back for Iman the actual return was paltry at best, especially when you consider that he tossed in a recent 6th man of the year recipient (yes, I understand JR and the baggage & player option he brought, but its still a fact.) We did almost get a another 1st rounder in the deal...almost.
  • The whole Melo/surgery thing is no less than a fiasco in my mind. Once it was evident that this season was a bust and Melo needed surgery, allowing him to dictate when he was getting cut is nothing less then terrible management. Allowing him to continue playing massive minutes, which 1- risks further injury, 2- actually hurts the team's future by winning a game or two and costing ping pong balls and 3- delays his ability to be at full strength as early as possible, was unarguably stupid.
  • His entire game philosophy is "But, Triangle!" From coaches to players, he appears hell bent on getting people to run it, even though the system itself is highly debatable. If it was such a great system, why isn't anyone else running it exclusively? Who are all the teams without someone named Jordan or Kobe that have won with it? A great exec, sports or otherwise, takes the strengths of his personnel and molds a system to maximize their efforts and results (think Riley's showtime Lakers vs his thug years with NYK). A polar opposite approach is far from greatness. I could easily see Jax taking a lesser player that he thinks is the best fit for the triangle in the draft as opposed to the best player avail, especially in the Knicks don't end up with a top 1 or 2 pick.
  • "You are what your record says you are" so, what does Jax's record as an exec say he is?
is that enough for less than 1 season?

(and for the record, I don't think he's done everything terribly and there is hope for the future of the franchise but as of yet Jax has shown me very little to make me think he is the man for this job that I sincerely hope he is)
 
This all started with foolishly trading Patrick Ewing and taking on huge contracts in return, and then paying Houston like he was Michael Jordan. Dolan is a maniac.
 
show me something he's done really well

  • (not Jax's fault) his hire was as messed up messed up as Lester's for OC. no selection process, no other interviews, etc. for a man with exactly 0.0 experience doing what he is being hired to do.
  • his hiring of Fish as a coach wasn't horrible, but the process of chasing Kerr with no alternate clear plan or methodology was
  • his roster building has been terrible so far. show me anything he has done so far to make you say "YES!!! That's a building block for the future!!!" I know this was a lost year, but no one thought it would be this piss poor, especially Jax
  • you mentioned lack of return for Tyson, how about Shump? I'm no GM and I know rumors are exactly that- rumors, but based on long running speculations surrounding players and/or picks they could've gotten back for Iman the actual return was paltry at best, especially when you consider that he tossed in a recent 6th man of the year recipient (yes, I understand JR and the baggage & player option he brought, but its still a fact.) We did almost get a another 1st rounder in the deal...almost.
  • The whole Melo/surgery thing is no less than a fiasco in my mind. Once it was evident that this season was a bust and Melo needed surgery, allowing him to dictate when he was getting cut is nothing less then terrible management. Allowing him to continue playing massive minutes, which 1- risks further injury, 2- actually hurts the team's future by winning a game or two and costing ping pong balls and 3- delays his ability to be at full strength as early as possible, was unarguably stupid.
  • His entire game philosophy is "But, Triangle!" From coaches to players, he appears hell bent on getting people to run it, even though the system itself is highly debatable. If it was such a great system, why isn't anyone else running it exclusively? Who are all the teams without someone named Jordan or Kobe that have won with it? A great exec, sports or otherwise, takes the strengths of his personnel and molds a system to maximize their efforts and results (think Riley's showtime Lakers vs his thug years with NYK). A polar opposite approach is far from greatness. I could easily see Jax taking a lesser player that he thinks is the best fit for the triangle in the draft as opposed to the best player avail, especially in the Knicks don't end up with a top 1 or 2 pick.
  • "You are what your record says you are" so, what does Jax's record as an exec say he is?
is that enough for less than 1 season?

(and for the record, I don't think he's done everything terribly and there is hope for the future of the franchise but as of yet Jax has shown me very little to make me think he is the man for this job that I sincerely hope he is)
Nothing wrong with the way Jackson was hired. He was Dolan's a,b,and c choice. he didn't believe he needed a second choice after Kerr. he had an agreement, which Kerr confirms. He is not roster building. Once the initial team didn't click, they went into tank mode. Anybody thinking or expecting different is nuts. They got what they could for Shumpert. Coming off last season and injuries this season, his value in trades was little. JR was considered poison by most of the leagues GM. Any reading during the last couple of seasons will confirm this. Most figured he would cost the Knicks just to ditch him. As far as Melo's surgery. Everybody knew he was getting it after the All Star game. If was in NY and he was going to be there no matter what. No complaint from me. He'll be ready in plenty of time for next season. Don't want him coming back earlier and helping to win games. The triangle stuff is so damned laughable. Its a motion offense similar to what the Spurs run. Idiots can't function in it, and neither can selfish or undisciplined players. NY had no strengths. I admire the patience and long range vision Jackson has. I know it will take years but that's the only way unless you're lucky. Melo, Towns plus a max FA, and a mid level FA could make them contenders.
Jackson's record says he understands that everything has to change and it wont be quick. That's how they got where they are.
 
This all started with foolishly trading Patrick Ewing and taking on huge contracts in return, and then paying Houston like he was Michael Jordan. Dolan is a maniac.
Ewing gave them little choice. He wanted a long term large contract. Houston was a fiasco as Dolan ended up bidding against himself. Just like some cartoon...
 
show me something he's done really well

  • (not Jax's fault) his hire was as messed up messed up as Lester's for OC. no selection process, no other interviews, etc. for a man with exactly 0.0 experience doing what he is being hired to do.
  • his hiring of Fish as a coach wasn't horrible, but the process of chasing Kerr with no alternate clear plan or methodology was
  • his roster building has been terrible so far. show me anything he has done so far to make you say "YES!!! That's a building block for the future!!!" I know this was a lost year, but no one thought it would be this piss poor, especially Jax
  • you mentioned lack of return for Tyson, how about Shump? I'm no GM and I know rumors are exactly that- rumors, but based on long running speculations surrounding players and/or picks they could've gotten back for Iman the actual return was paltry at best, especially when you consider that he tossed in a recent 6th man of the year recipient (yes, I understand JR and the baggage & player option he brought, but its still a fact.) We did almost get a another 1st rounder in the deal...almost.
  • The whole Melo/surgery thing is no less than a fiasco in my mind. Once it was evident that this season was a bust and Melo needed surgery, allowing him to dictate when he was getting cut is nothing less then terrible management. Allowing him to continue playing massive minutes, which 1- risks further injury, 2- actually hurts the team's future by winning a game or two and costing ping pong balls and 3- delays his ability to be at full strength as early as possible, was unarguably stupid.
  • His entire game philosophy is "But, Triangle!" From coaches to players, he appears hell bent on getting people to run it, even though the system itself is highly debatable. If it was such a great system, why isn't anyone else running it exclusively? Who are all the teams without someone named Jordan or Kobe that have won with it? A great exec, sports or otherwise, takes the strengths of his personnel and molds a system to maximize their efforts and results (think Riley's showtime Lakers vs his thug years with NYK). A polar opposite approach is far from greatness. I could easily see Jax taking a lesser player that he thinks is the best fit for the triangle in the draft as opposed to the best player avail, especially in the Knicks don't end up with a top 1 or 2 pick.
  • "You are what your record says you are" so, what does Jax's record as an exec say he is?
is that enough for less than 1 season?

(and for the record, I don't think he's done everything terribly and there is hope for the future of the franchise but as of yet Jax has shown me very little to make me think he is the man for this job that I sincerely hope he is)

So he was supposed to have acquired building blocks by Feb. of his first year? They cleared cap space and will have a a high pick. Beyond thatit's way too early to call.

I'm puzzled at how he was supposed to have acquired building blocks by this point.
 
The Knicks are so bad (how bad are they?) that ABC decided not to carry the Cavs game today in the nation's No. 1 media market and have deep-sixed the Knicks' four other national games.
 
The Knicks are so bad (how bad are they?) that ABC decided not to carry the Cavs game today in the nation's No. 1 media market and have deep-sixed the Knicks' four other national games.
Good, no one should be subjected to watching a d league team play on national tv.
 
Ewing gave them little choice. He wanted a long term large contract. Houston was a fiasco as Dolan ended up bidding against himself. Just like some cartoon...

They shouldn't have traded him regardless-- should have let him play the last year and retire a Knick. There was all the talk about the Knicks being better without him at the time. Yeah. Taking on Glenn Rice and the bag of donuts with huge contracts started this fiasco. It has snowballed and that maniac doesn't care since the Knicks still pull in $$$$$.
 
Good, no one should be subjected to watching a d league team play on national tv.
I realize Chaz Barkley was just being Chaz, but he said he wouldn't show up for work if TNT carries any more Knicks or Lakers game.
 
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Nothing wrong with the way Jackson was hired. He was Dolan's a,b,and c choice. he didn't believe he needed a second choice after Kerr. he had an agreement, which Kerr confirms. He is not roster building. Once the initial team didn't click, they went into tank mode. Anybody thinking or expecting different is nuts. They got what they could for Shumpert. Coming off last season and injuries this season, his value in trades was little. JR was considered poison by most of the leagues GM. Any reading during the last couple of seasons will confirm this. Most figured he would cost the Knicks just to ditch him. As far as Melo's surgery. Everybody knew he was getting it after the All Star game. If was in NY and he was going to be there no matter what. No complaint from me. He'll be ready in plenty of time for next season. Don't want him coming back earlier and helping to win games. The triangle stuff is so damned laughable. Its a motion offense similar to what the Spurs run. Idiots can't function in it, and neither can selfish or undisciplined players. NY had no strengths. I admire the patience and long range vision Jackson has. I know it will take years but that's the only way unless you're lucky. Melo, Towns plus a max FA, and a mid level FA could make them contenders.
Jackson's record says he understands that everything has to change and it wont be quick. That's how they got where they are.

First, there is everything wrong with the way he was hired, but thats on Dolan. If CD had set out to hire the best person he could to run/build his team, and had conducted a real process towards that end, and after doing his due diligence had come up with Jax as the answer, then great. Instead, it sorta went down like:
Dolan: please come be my coach
Jax: I won't/can't
Dolan: so please come be my GM​
Just more of the same terrible star f'er approach that brought us Isiah Thomas.

True, he though he had Kerr (who would have been a great choice based on his record this year. does he play the triangle exclusively?) but that obviously didn't happen. Most managers in lesser positions with lesser stakes routinely have back up plans. For Jax to think he didn't need one, or not realize that he did, is negligence.

Agreed that no one, including Jax, expected this to be a pure dump season. That said, it was his roster that under performed so terribly that it became what it is. I may have not expected it, but I'm just a fan. He's the pro that put together this roster. What does that say about his ability to correctly evaluate?

Dumping Shump for basically nothing was the cost of getting rid of JR. I think the ability to actually get rid of that head case is probably the biggest exec plus I can give Jax so far. It wasn't an easy task. However, Shump himself could have brought back a 1st the year before when he was hurt and playing worse.

As for what everyone knew about Melo's timetable, so what. That was the perfect opportunity for Jax to assert himself as a real leader and dictate what's best for the team, which included not having his high paid superstar play 30 mins in a 100% meaningless game.

Lastly, the triangle stuff may be way overblown, but its Jax that perpetuates it and appears stubbornly resistant to any but it. From his own statement following the Shump/JR trade:

“As our journey moves through this season, we will search for the type of players that fit the style we hope to exhibit for our fans,” Phil Jackson said in a statement. “Our desire is to improve our ability to compete. In addition, these transactions improve our flexibility to the current roster and the salary cap for future seasons.”​

To me his statement reads: We need people to fit my system, and we also got some cap room.

So he was supposed to have acquired building blocks by Feb. of his first year? They cleared cap space and will have a a high pick. Beyond thatit's way too early to call.

I'm puzzled at how he was supposed to have acquired building blocks by this point.

Not saying he should be building a world beater right away. He was supposed to build a decent roster for year 1, and be able to correctly assess what that roster can/would do. Once it went to tank mode, he should be doing everything possible to increase the team's position for the future. With the Melo situation he definately didn't. With some of the moves he did make, he probably may have been able to get a better return. I wish we could have gotten the OKC 1st we were rumored to get in Shump/JR dump but of course we didn't.

I do give him a half star for embracing the dump and not trying to tread water but still don't see yet the player(s) he had the vision to acquire for us. The first of those will probably come in the draft but that won't be as a direct result of his planning but rather as a fall in your lap bonus for the implosion of a season which wasn't his plan.


Again, I ask you to show me anything he has done with the Knicks that you can look at and say, wow, that was a 100% great move!
 
They shouldn't have traded him regardless-- should have let him play the last year and retire a Knick. There was all the talk about the Knicks being better without him at the time. Yeah. Taking on Glenn Rice and the bag of donuts with huge contracts started this fiasco. It has snowballed and that maniac doesn't care since the Knicks still pull in $$$$$.

they may or may not have been a better team without him (prob not) but you are 100% correct that they should have let him play out the last year of that contract. Patrick probably would have signed elsewhere for a year or two afterwards, but that started a big cycle of cap hell that the Knicks are all too familiar with.

Of course Dolan would have gotten us there quickly anyhow, just like he did the few times since when we've actually dug ourselves out. Now I'm probably a fool for holding my breath that it doesn't happen again this time.

GO JAX!!!
 
So he was supposed to have acquired building blocks by Feb. of his first year? They cleared cap space and will have a a high pick. Beyond thatit's way too early to call.

I'm puzzled at how he was supposed to have acquired building blocks by this point.

One thing he could have not done is trade for a player who already has a negative contract that is not movable unless you are taking back a player you don't really want in return.

Trading Tyson Chandler and getting the longest contract in return (2 years longer IIRC) in Jose Calderon was terrible.

Getting an expiring would have been better than Jose.
 
I disagree with most of the criticisms above. It has been delusional that the Knuts have been any sort of serious contenders since the Ewing days. The chance was blown in the Melo deal where the Knicks gave away all assets to get Melo. They should have kept those assets & let Melo come or not as a free agent. The only way to rebuild this mess is to tear it down completely. Only somebody with the stature of Jax could have done that.

Yes, Phil needed to re-sign Melo, so he had to play the Knicks are contenders game over the summer & he gave that a half-hearted try.

Then once it became apparent that the team was a mess, the tear down process began with urgency.

You have to remember the Knicks are very short of assets & as bad as this year is, next year will be worse when they do not even have their own #1.

There is no question the Knicks have to hit bottom. Once that is accomplished we will see what Phil can really do.

Many ifs, but it is not beyond the realm of possibility that the Knicks could contend in two years. The plan needs to be:

1. Obviously Melo has to return at 100%.

2. This year's draft pick has to be a star, be it Okafur or somebody else.

3. The Knicks should only spend about 1/2 of their cap room & use that to pick up two non-star legit starting player types.

4. They have to preserve enough cap room to make a serious run for Durant the following year. Worst case they don't get him, but then spend the rest of that cap room on best available players.

You can't begin to judge Phil for at least three or four years as he will need that much time to accumulate some assets to utilize unless my pie in the sky plan enabled nirvana to arrive sooner.
 
Are we saying the worst Knicks team with Melo or without him...I saw them play the Celtics in 2008 and Boston won by about 45. I remember afterward Barkley saying "see the problem with the Washington Generals is that the Globetrotters are too good." That Knicks team was pretty bad.
 
if we are to believe what we are told to believe, the chandler trade was made because Melo didnt want to even go to camp with him.
 
Knick fans and Redskin fans have to be the most tortured sport fanbases since the Red Sox won in 2004.
Both fillup their home arenas and have crappy owners. Dolan seriously can't get out of his own way. Phil is just cashing checks and unless a miracle happens and they get Gasol or Alridge the Brick fanbase will need lottery help.
 
if we are to believe what we are told to believe, the chandler trade was made because Melo didnt want to even go to camp with him.
Hmmmm...never heard this rumor before. Link?
 
Hmmmm...never heard this rumor before. Link?
Every single day on the radio, by multiple connected folks.

I've read it multiple times too.

I'm not going to look, those who follow the Knicks daily, know this.
 

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