Special Teams

[shandeezy7]

Sooo, I'm not sure I've seen a dedicated thread to this. Can we talk about the Special Teams? Who is in charge of it? That might have been one of the worst Special Teams performances that I have ever witnessed. A blocked punt, non-existent punt returns, an 8 yard punt and a missed FG (primarily due to a holder that almost never spins the ball laces out - who is teaching him this skill?!?). Just an atrocious performance all around, and I'm not even sure how you clean it up in-season.

 

[PhatOrange]

Not agreeing or disagreeing here but they were good in the Ohio game. Specials were atrocious last weekend (except for Williams) but I think the jury is still out.

I doubt we'll ever see the other punter again and we shouldn't. They did try to block another punt later in the game and we cleaned it up. The formation penalties were jacked. I might have benched Pena but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt in just his 2nd game.

 

[All4SU]

ST killed us. The punt return game was the biggest negative factor in the game. I know Szmyt missed one. That wasn’t catastrophic, just unexpected. Kickoff coverage and returns were a wash. The punter change was a disaster. And punt coverage was good except for the penalty, which was huge. We can debate whether or not it was legitimate.

But gosh, we have got to do a better job at recognizing what their punter is doing and adjusting. Changing punters was just a brain fart.

 

[Chip]

The blocked punt wasn't helped by the a snap. The guy may still have blocked it, but Williams had to jump to his right initially to catch it. We were very lucky RU dropped that perfect pass in the end zone on the first play.

Bayside had a good analogy for Pena on that one PR. He looked like the center fielder who had the line drive hit over his head and didn't realize it until it was too late. That was one bad.

 

[shandeezy7]

Not agreeing or disagreeing here but they were good in the Ohio game. Specials were atrocious last weekend (except for Williams) but I think the jury is still out.

I doubt we'll ever see the other punter again and we shouldn't. They did try to block another punt later in the game and we cleaned it up. The formation penalties were jacked. I might have benched Pena but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt in just his 2nd game.

Oh yeah, I forgot to even mention the illegal formation penalties on the punts. I can see how it happens once? Perhaps even twice? But three times is an absolute embarrassment and proof that we had no idea what we were doing out there.

As for Pena - he was put in a no-win situation on punt returns. We let the punter hold the ball back there forever until he punted, so the coverage was all downfield by the time he booted it. Also, all of his punts were super unpredictable. Lots of line drives that anyone would have difficulty fielding. Again, we allowed this to happen by not even thinking about trying to apply pressure and forcing the kid to get rid of the kick sooner.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

I have a theory on the punter change.

Rutgers had a "rugby" style punter who ripped off 60-70 yard kicks. Kind of like my drives (30 yds airborne, 30 yds of roll).

Wouldn't it be nice if SU had a punter who could do that. Especially if you were backed up and needed to flip the field.

Maybe Barker was supposed to be that guy?

Until he "booted" it.

 

[PhatOrange]

Oh yeah, I forgot to even mention the illegal formation penalties on the punts. I can see how it happens once? Perhaps even twice? But three times is an absolute embarrassment and proof that we had no idea what we were doing out there.

As for Pena - he was put in a no-win situation on punt returns. We let the punter hold the ball back there forever until he punted, so the coverage was all downfield by the time he booted it. Also, all of his punts were super unpredictable. Lots of line drives that anyone would have difficulty fielding. Again, we allowed this to happen by not even thinking about trying to apply pressure and forcing the kid to get rid of the kick sooner.

I don't agree with this. Pena was running backwards on his punt returns. You should start far enough back that nothing can go over your head. This is basic stuff. Once fine, but it should never happen twice and 3 times is a seat.

The formation penalites imo were jacked and were about as good calling a uniform violation because the pants weren't covering the knee.

 

[All4SU]

Oh yeah, I forgot to even mention the illegal formation penalties on the punts. I can see how it happens once? Perhaps even twice? But three times is an absolute embarrassment and proof that we had no idea what we were doing out there.

As for Pena - he was put in a no-win situation on punt returns. We let the punter hold the ball back there forever until he punted, so the coverage was all downfield by the time he booted it. Also, all of his punts were super unpredictable. Lots of line drives that anyone would have difficulty fielding. Again, we allowed this to happen by not even thinking about trying to apply pressure and forcing the kid to get rid of the kick sooner.

I’m not convinced that the formations would normally be called “illegal.”
I
Mean …

 

[shandeezy7]

I don't agree with this. Pena was running backwards on his punt returns. You should start far enough back that nothing can go over your head. This is basic stuff. Once fine, but it should never happen twice and 3 times is a seat.

The formation penalites imo were jacked and were about as good calling a uniform violation because the pants weren't covering the knee.

I'm assuming that's because a lot of kicks were only traveling 30 yards in the air so he moved up (probably instructed to do so by a coach).

 

[PhatOrange]

I'm assuming that's because a lot of kicks were only traveling 30 yards in the air so he moved up (probably instructed to do so by a coach).

That's just not true. Go watch it again. He boomed a couple (his 1st went 50 yds in the air) which Pena fielded nicely. Even his line drives covered some distance. Guy averaged 50 yards a punt last year and average 52 in this game.

 

[upperdeck]

he is a good punter.. no teams have really done a good job of adjusting to his style.. Not sure where didnt just drop 2 back and play D so they couldnt fake it, but teams seldom do that anymore

 

[JRHEETER]

I’m not convinced that the formations would normally be called “illegal.”
I
Mean …View attachment 206129

uhhhh that’s bad, look at the frontline, no one is lined up in a row. They are all sorts of not correct

 

[JRHEETER]

Also no one really knows who runs special teams but Dino said that there is someone, even though they don’t have a special teams coordinator

Also, this is a serious question, how many teams in P5 don’t have a dedicated special teams coordinator?

 

[shandeezy7]

I’m not convinced that the formations would normally be called “illegal.”
I
Mean …View attachment 206129

I'm not totally sure on what illegal formation is on a punt, but it looks to me like the ball is at the 19 yard line there and we don't have a single player closer than the 17 yard line (except maybe the gunner on the top of the screen). Could just be an angle thing, but the snapper is seemingly 1-2 yards in front of the rest of the line, which would appear to be confirmed by no one on the Rutgers line being further up than the 19 yard line.

 

[shandeezy7]

That's just not true. Go watch it again. He boomed a couple (his 1st went 50 yds in the air) which Pena fielded nicely. Even his line drives covered some distance. Guy averaged 50 yards a punt last year and average 52 in this game.

Perhaps I'm misremembering aspects, but I distinctly recall more than one punt landing somewhat significantly in front of Pena and rolling a bit. The one punt over his head definitely caught him by surprise but it was another weird punt. A screaming line drive that felt like it didn't get more than 20-25 feet off the ground (I'm sure it was higher than that, but it did not look like a normal punt).

 

[OrangeBass]

Oh yeah, I forgot to even mention the illegal formation penalties on the punts. I can see how it happens once? Perhaps even twice? But three times is an absolute embarrassment and proof that we had no idea what we were doing out there.

As for Pena - he was put in a no-win situation on punt returns. We let the punter hold the ball back there forever until he punted, so the coverage was all downfield by the time he booted it. Also, all of his punts were super unpredictable. Lots of line drives that anyone would have difficulty fielding. Again, we allowed this to happen by not even thinking about trying to apply pressure and forcing the kid to get rid of the kick sooner.

This I agreed with and was bringing it up during the game. It seemed like we were too worried about setting up a punt return.

 

[PhatOrange]

Perhaps I'm misremembering aspects, but I distinctly recall more than one punt landing somewhat significantly in front of Pena and rolling a bit. The one punt over his head definitely caught him by surprise but it was another weird punt. A screaming line drive that felt like it didn't get more than 20-25 feet off the ground (I'm sure it was higher than that, but it did not look like a normal punt).

we're probably both right and both wrong but I'm not going to go watch the punts. cheers.

 

[EuclidBred]

Here is the issue I have with the Special Teams - each of the issues on Saturday were COACHING issues, not personnel issues.

1. The Punt Block - this has been Schiano's MO forever - and we get the first one blocked. Did whoever coaches the punt team watch any film at all? This is a COACHING prep error.

2. The Punt illegal formations - this was obviously something the Rutgers staff saw on film and pointed out to the referees during their pregame meeting. One time, OK. Two times - W. T. F. ! You have to get this cleaned up. Again, this is COACHING for not fixing this after the first flag.

3. The Punt Returner was awful but it was based on where he was lining up to catch the ball. How there wasn't a COACH on the sideline that was telling Pena to back up after the first issue is beyond me. Go stand on the goal line for all I care. You know it's going to be rugby-style so not as high as say Dixon or Hofrichter. So give yourself a chance to run up on it. Again, this is COACHING for not putting Pena in a position to field these appropriately.

I have been told that Cavanaugh's kid is the point person for special teams in his QC role. If nothing else, this tells you how much Dino cares about special teams. The QC has been nothing more than a GA at Ball State before coming to Syracuse and now he is "running" our special teams. Dino took Lustig for granted. Keep in mind Lustig was Clark Lea's first hire at Vanderbilt after Lea was impressed with his special teams during the ND/Cuse games. Dino seemed miffed at the question about special teams coordinating in yesterday's press conference but I thought it was great question to try and find some accountability since for some reason we decided not to go find a special teams coordinator this past offseason.

I said it the other night in my post after the game, it would not surprise me if special teams costs us at least one more W this season. Dino talks all the time about winning 2/3 phases of the game. Special teams used to be close to a guarantee with Lustig but the staff made the decision that we could make do with a QC in charge. Head scratcher for sure.

 

[PhatOrange]

uhhhh that’s bad, look at the frontline, no one is lined up in a row. They are all sorts of not correct

it's hard to tell in that screen shot how we're lined up. It looks like maybe they're farther back than they really are because they're not in a 3 point stance. Ive never read the definition of the rule (do they have to be in line with the center?) but I hate ambiguous rules like this and no clear line in the sand. It's a stupid call and one I imagine monkey face was in the refs ear about.

 

[All4SU]

uhhhh that’s bad, look at the frontline, no one is lined up in a row. They are all sorts of not correct

Everyone looks to be within a step of the LOS. I could screen shot punt formations or FG formations from any game this past weekend and find examples just like this.

 

[buffalorange]

SU's secret special teams coordinator:

Isn't that special!

 

[Newhouser]

Here is the issue I have with the Special Teams - each of the issues on Saturday were COACHING issues, not personnel issues.

1. The Punt Block - this has been Schiano's MO forever - and we get the first one blocked. Did whoever coaches the punt team watch any film at all? This is a COACHING prep error.

2. The Punt illegal formations - this was obviously something the Rutgers staff saw on film and pointed out to the referees during their pregame meeting. One time, OK. Two times - W. T. F. ! You have to get this cleaned up. Again, this is COACHING for not fixing this after the first flag.

3. The Punt Returner was awful but it was based on where he was lining up to catch the ball. How there wasn't a COACH on the sideline that was telling Pena to back up after the first issue is beyond me. Go stand on the goal line for all I care. You know it's going to be rugby-style so not as high as say Dixon or Hofrichter. So give yourself a chance to run up on it. Again, this is COACHING for not putting Pena in a position to field these appropriately.

I have been told that Cavanaugh's kid is the point person for special teams in his QC role. If nothing else, this tells you how much Dino cares about special teams. The QC has been nothing more than a GA at Ball State before coming to Syracuse and now he is "running" our special teams. Dino took Lustig for granted. Keep in mind Lustig was Clark Lea's first hire at Vanderbilt after Lea was impressed with his special teams during the ND/Cuse games. Dino seemed miffed at the question about special teams coordinating in yesterday's press conference but I thought it was great question to try and find some accountability since for some reason we decided not to go find a special teams coordinator this past offseason.

I said it the other night in my post after the game, it would not surprise me if special teams costs us at least one more W this season. Dino talks all the time about winning 2/3 phases of the game. Special teams used to be close to a guarantee with Lustig but the staff made the decision that we could make do with a QC in charge. Head scratcher for sure.

Excellent post and #2 is especially on point. I think Rutgers pointed it out and I think/know we were not able to correct on the fly which is not good.