SU players in the NBA

[pfister1]

Melo aside, our better players have typically not faired that well in the NBA. They have typically under performed the more Orange colored expectations of our fan base. Yeah we've had a number of guys that have put together solid careers... Schayes (18 seasons), Coleman (15 seasons 16.5 ppg) Seikaly (11 season 14.7 ppg), Douglas (12 seasons 11 ppg), Owens (11 seasons 11.5 ppg), Thomas (9 seasons), Hart (9 seasons), but not any real stars.

A number of reasons have been thrown around for this...chief among them is playing in the zone doesn't prepare you to play defense in the NBA.

I look at it in another way. We have a fairly long history of making terrific college players out of guys that were border line prospects and they were featured/played at their ceiling or above in college and weren't really NBA prospects despite how well they fared in college. Examples are Moten, Shumpert, GMac, Rautins (Leo & Andy), Jackson, Wallace, Pearl(?). The jury is still out on Flynn, Greene and Johnson.

I wonder, if this a result of our system? But rather than being a result of the impact of our system on the particular player as most people think, is it more a result of the type of players we typically recruit to play our system. The guys we bring in to play our system tend to fair well in the college game, but those skills oftentimes don't translate to the professional level. In other words if they had gone someplace else they might not only have not made it in the league, but might not have had the college careers they did?

Just another way to look at things.

 

[AZOrange]

DC didnt fare very well? He might not have met the expectations of some fans...but 15 seasons/16.5ppg?

 

[jekelish]

And you have to remember that Billy Owens had about nine surgeries that completely derailed his career. And are you talking about only guys from the JB era? Because if not, then I think you're missing a pretty freaking prominent player who was named one of the 50 greatest players in NBA history.

 

[SBU72]

Melo aside, our better players have typically not faired that well in the NBA. They have typically under performed the more Orange colored expectations of our fan base. Yeah we've had a number of guys that have put together solid careers... Schayes (18 seasons), Coleman (15 seasons 16.5 ppg) Seikaly (11 season 14.7 ppg), Douglas (12 seasons 11 ppg), Owens (11 seasons 11.5 ppg), Thomas (9 seasons), Hart (9 seasons), but not any real stars.

A number of reasons have been thrown around for this...chief among them is playing in the zone doesn't prepare you to play defense in the NBA.

I look at it in another way. We have a fairly long history of making terrific college players out of guys that were border line prospects and they were featured/played at their ceiling or above in college and weren't really NBA prospects despite how well they fared in college. Examples are Moten, Shumpert, GMac, Rautins (Leo & Andy), Jackson, Wallace, Pearl(?). The jury is still out on Flynn, Greene and Johnson.

I wonder, if this a result of our system? But rather than being a result of the impact of our system on the particular player as most people think, is it more a result of the type of players we typically recruit to play our system. The guys we bring in to play our system tend to fair well in the college game, but those skills oftentimes don't translate to the professional level. In other words if they had gone someplace else they might not only have not made it in the league, but might not have had the college careers they did?

Just another way to look at things.

There is a hs coach in Rochester who was a highly recruited b-ball player in the day who says that JB is NOT a good coach. He calls a local talk show to express his thoughts. He says that JB is selfish, that he coaches just to get wins not to develope his players and that selfishness spreads to his former players. He use Melo's lack of defence as an example. And how Wesley Johnson has failed to excell. He says it is a coaches job to prepare his players to succeed in the NBA, not coach to get wins. He also points to how Wallace and Pearl and Rautins and Gmac and the others were not able to succeed as proof to his opinion. Now my opinion is that JB must be an awfully overwhelming personality to only take one year to teach Melo all sorts of bad habits. Or reverse what every good things Wesley's previous college coach taugh him in only 2 years. Or Green or Flynn. I really think that the guy is just holding a grudge that JB did not recruit him coming out of hs

 

[jekelish]

There is a hs coach in Rochester who was a highly recruited b-ball player in the day who says that JB is NOT a good coach. He calls a local talk show to express his thoughts. He says that JB is selfish, that he coaches just to get wins not to develope his players and that selfishness spreads to his former players. He use Melo's lack of defence as an example. And how Wesley Johnson has failed to excell. He says it is a coaches job to prepare his players to succeed in the NBA, not coach to get wins. He also points to how Wallace and Pearl and Rautins and Gmac and the others were not able to succeed as proof to his opinion. Now my opinion is that JB must be an awfully overwhelming personality to only take one year to teach Melo all sorts of bad habits. Or reverse what every good things Wesley's previous college coach taugh him in only 2 years. Or Green or Flynn. I really think that the guy is just holding a grudge that JB did not recruit him coming out of hs

Well, first of all, isn't the primary job of a college basketball coach to win college basketball games? How is that selfish to want to succeed at his primary function?

 

[44cuse]

the more Orange colored expectations of our fan base

I realize this isn't your point, but remember, this is the same fan base that thought James Harden was bad.

Assessing NBA talent (college or current players) is not a strength of this group. It has always seemed like there just aren;t many NBA fans on this board.

As for you actual point...I have wondered about this a lot myself. I really thought JF (height issues aside) was going to be a very good NBA player. Not just good...but very good. I saw him in a PnR system with multiple dimes per night and a productive scoring guard. At the worst a change of pace guy off the bench with the ability to come in and score 10+.

I have no idea why our guys don't make it. Between us and Duke and it's a toss up for who has worse NBA players. Just goes to show how good of coaching jobs both JB and K do.

44cuse

 

[44cuse]

He says it is a coaches job to prepare his players to succeed in the NBA, not coach to get wins.

Wrong. And if that individual in fact said that, everything he says has zero merit. JB's job is to win. Period. Final. End of story.

There are 100 programs in the country that do not produce NBA players in a given year. Do all of those caoches fail as well? No. because the job of a coach is to win games.

44cuse

 

[djcon57]

Assessing NBA talent (college or current players) is not a strength of this group. It has always seemed like there just aren;t many NBA fans on this board.

Please give me your Top 5 NBA picks (long term results) for this year. I'd like it on the record so the board can bring it back up and comment on what an idiot or genius you are.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

If there is one general knock on the kids SU brings in/develops... as a collective group, they would not be labeled "hard workers". Sure, we had some individuals through the years who were hard workers. Outside of Melo.. who was going to be a star regardless of where he went to college.. our 3 and 4 year guys have not gotten better at the next level, to put it nicely. I think most people would say the zone is a big obstacle once our guys are getting an Association paycheck.

 

[SWC75]

You job as a coach is to do what will prevent you from being fired for not doing it.

 

[44cuse]

Please give me your Top 5 NBA picks (long term results) for this year. I'd like it on the record so the board can bring it back up and comment on what an idiot or genius you are.

Where did I say I was pick and nail the Top 5? I said people here don't like the NBA and thought James Harden was awful. If I could pick the Top 5, I'd be an NBA GM.

Sorry, but if you couldn't see that James Harden was going to be a good NBA player, I don't know what to tell you. And had you not cherry-picked the post, you'd already have your answer. Clearly I don't know what I'm talking about because I thought JF was going to be a good NBA player.

There you go. Remember, this is the same board where last year multiple said they pick Dirk Nowitzki over LeBron James.

44cuse

 

[pfister1]

I was having a hard time trying to decide how to characterize the NBA careers of individual SU players - was he a success or wasn't he? Melo is pretty easy, after that not so much. I realized most of it is dependent on our individual expectations for that guy. A guy like Coleman is only questionable because he was the #1 draft pick coming out of college - so expectations become quite lofty - and he only played in one All Star Game and only advanced beyond the first round of playoffs one time. If Melo doesn't lead the Knicks to a championship at some point, some may even look back at him and question his career.

Anyway my larger point is based on the premise that we don't have a track record for producing lots of NBA stars given the number of years of successful college basketball teams we've had. Seems like schools like UConn have had many more players move on and shine in the NBA.

And the question is really being asked thinking about it in the context of how JB prepares guys for the next level not how attendance at Syracuse University or living on the shores of Onondaga lake might effect your likelihood to play at the next level...so I didn't mention Eddie Miller, Lew Spicer or even Dave Bing.

 

[pfister1]

There you go. Remember, this is the same board where last year multiple said they pick Dirk Nowitzki over LeBron James.

44cuse

Also the same board that thinks we have as many as 5 NBA talents playing on the current roster. Maybe we do...but odds are against it.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

Also the same board that thinks we have as many as 5 NBA talents playing on the current roster. Maybe we do...but odds are against it.

I'll never forget the James Southerland NBA prospects thread from last year

 

[44cuse]

Also the same board that thinks we have as many as 5 NBA talents playing on the current roster. Maybe we do...but odds are against it.

Yep, that's not lost on me either. I certainly hope we do. I love the NBA and I would be really happy to watch and pull for SU guys in the league.

44cuse

 

[SWC75]

Where did I say I was pick and nail the Top 5? I said people here don't like the NBA and thought James Harden was awful. If I could pick the Top 5, I'd be an NBA GM.

Sorry, but if you couldn't see that James Harden was going to be a good NBA player, I don't know what to tell you. And had you not cherry-picked the post, you'd already have your answer. Clearly I don't know what I'm talking about because I thought JF was going to be a good NBA player.

There you go. Remember, this is the same board where last year multiple said they pick Dirk Nowitzki over LeBron James.

44cuse

This actually proves your point but the reason why we thought James Hardin was awful was because he was awful against us and that's the only time we saw him.

 

[Garbs]

If there is one general knock on the kids SU brings in/develops... as a collective group, they would not be labeled "hard workers". Sure, we had some individuals through the years who were hard workers. Outside of Melo.. who was going to be a star regardless of where he went to college.. our 3 and 4 year guys have not gotten better at the next level, to put it nicely. I think most people would say the zone is a big obstacle once our guys are getting an Association paycheck.

this is such a cop out, if you can play defense, you can play defense. same basic principles/drills whether you play man or zone.

now what the zone might do is deceive scouts into thinking guys are better defenders than they are, see Wes Johnson, Johnny Flynn, Rautins...

 

[SWC75]

I think the probation set us back for years. We are not an institution that doesn't care about having a reputation for cheating so we were on eggshells for years afterwards, not wanting to get caught at anything again. We finally pulled out of it and are back to competing for the nation's top recruits with the likes of Kentucky, which seems to have no such scruples.

I'm also not convinced that there's a long list of schools whose graduates have a better NBA resume than ours, despite the disappointments.

 

[44cuse]

This actually proves your point but the reason why we thought James Hardin was awful was because he was awful against us and that's the only time we saw him.

Exactly. That's always been my point. National perspective is not a strength of our fan base (football or hoops) IMO. To be fair, that may be the case for most fan bases.

44cuse

 

[Madbiker]

Most NBA draft picks never amount to anything. A handful over a ten year period become stars. A handful become decent role players in a supporting role. Most wash out in 2-3 years. This is not unique to SU. How many of Duke's all world college AA's -- and there have been a lot of them in the Coach K era-- became NBA stars? Not many. Grant Hill, maybe Laettner, Deng. Same with UNC outside of Jordan and Worthy which was quite a while ago. Hansbrough? For all of Cal's 1st round picks the last few years, how many have become stars or even solid players? Wall is having a lot of problems (though he plays on a terrible team), Cousins while talented always seems to be in trouble and getting suspended. The others are mostly rotation role players at best.

 

[LennX6]

I realize this isn't your point, but remember, this is the same fan base that thought James Harden was bad.

Assessing NBA talent (college or current players) is not a strength of this group. It has always seemed like there just aren;t many NBA fans on this board.

As for you actual point...I have wondered about this a lot myself. I really thought JF (height issues aside) was going to be a very good NBA player. Not just good...but very good. I saw him in a PnR system with multiple dimes per night and a productive scoring guard. At the worst a change of pace guy off the bench with the ability to come in and score 10+.

I have no idea why our guys don't make it. Between us and Duke and it's a toss up for who has worse NBA players. Just goes to show how good of coaching jobs both JB and K do.

44cuse

This actually proves your point but the reason why we thought James Hardin was awful was because he was awful against us and that's the only time we saw him.

He was REALLY awful in that game and I admit I put my "eye test" on my evaluation of Harden.
Another way of looking at this is how many 1st 2nd or 3rd team All Americans have we had? I'll bet you'll find that list will be the same as the "Solid to Great SU NBA Players"
If you are wondering why good SU players who were not All-Americans did not become great NBA players well......
Just for kicks and grins , an interesting project would be take the , say, take an existing best 250 or so NBA Players of All-Time and trace their roots by coach and team. Are we and Duke alone in this "stigma"? I bet not. Yeah the horse farms like North Carolina and Kentucky will have more but I bet we are not that abnormal.

 

[pfister1]

Most NBA draft picks never amount to anything. A handful over a ten year period become stars. A handful become decent role players in a supporting role. Most wash out in 2-3 years. This is not unique to SU. How many of Duke's all world college AA's -- and there have been a lot of them in the Coach K era-- became NBA stars? Not many. Grant Hill, maybe Laettner, Deng. Same with UNC outside of Jordan and Worthy which was quite a while ago. Hansbrough? For all of Cal's 1st round picks the last few years, how many have become stars or even solid players? Wall is having a lot of problems (though he plays on a terrible team), Cousins while talented always seems to be in trouble and getting suspended. The others are mostly rotation role players at best.

Fair point. I think you and SWC are making a similar point.

I am too lazy to go much further than a weak proxy on this point, but here are this years All Star rosters. Only Texas and UCLA have more than one representative. 7 of 24 players didn't even attend college.

35 * Kevin Durant (Oklahoma City) F 6-9 235 09/29/88 Texas
32 * Blake Griffin (L.A. Clippers) F 6-10 251 03/16/89 Oklahoma
24 * Kobe Bryant (L.A. Lakers) G 6-6 205 08/23/78 Lower Merion HS (PA)
3 * Chris Paul (L.A. Clippers) G 6-0 175 05/06/85 Wake Forest
17 * # Andrew Bynum (L.A. Lakers) C 7-0 285 10/27/87 St. Joseph HS (NJ)
12 # LaMarcus Aldridge (Portland) F 6-11 240 07/19/85 Texas
33 # Marc Gasol (Memphis) C 7-1 265 01/29/85 Barcelona, Spain
42 Kevin Love (Minnesota) F-C 6-10 260 09/07/88 UCLA
13 Steve Nash (Phoenix) G 6-3 178 02/07/74 Santa Clara
41 Dirk Nowitzki (Dallas) F 7-0 245 06/19/78 Wurzburg, Germany
9 Tony Parker (San Antonio) G 6-2 185 05/17/82 Paris, France
0 Russell Westbrook (Oklahoma City) G 6-3 187 11/12/88 UCLA

7 * Carmelo Anthony (New York) F 6-8 230 05/29/84 Syracuse
6 * LeBron James (Miami) F 6-8 250 12/30/84 St. Vincent-St. Mary HS (OH)
1 * Derrick Rose (Chicago) G 6-3 190 10/04/88 Memphis
3 * Dwyane Wade (Miami) G 6-4 220 01/17/82 Marquette
12 * Dwight Howard (Orlando) C 6-11 265 12/08/85 SW Atlanta Christian Academy (GA)
1 Chris Bosh (Miami) F 6-11 235 03/24/84 Georgia Tech
9 # Luol Deng (Chicago) F 6-9 220 04/16/85 Duke
55 # Roy Hibbert (Indiana) C 7-2 260 12/11/86 Georgetown
9 # Andre Iguodala (Philadelphia) F-G 6-6 207 01/08/84 Arizona
55 Joe Johnson (Atlanta) G 6-7 240 06/29/81 Arkansas
34 Paul Pierce (Boston) F 6-7 235 10/13/77 Kansas
8 Deron Williams (New Jersey) G 6-3 209 06/26/84
Illinois

 

[arrow2arinzesknee]

I'll never forget the James Southerland NBA prospects thread from last year

Funny, although I wasn't around for that I tend to think he has as much NBA potential as any player on the roster, but that he won't get the look because he is too much of a head case.

He has freak athleticism, good size for a 3, can shoot very well from all over the floor and seems to fit the mold of an NBA swing man, he would fit in great on the knicks in role similar to Novak right now.

Now he just doesn't have it all together upstairs but the physical gifts are all there, and sometimes that's what makes an NBA player, which is why the NBA is frustrating to a lot of people myself included.

I mean how do players with "onions" the size of g-mac not make it at the next level but other idiots do? The college game is a more "pure" style of basketball where the NBA is more free and open and for the most part a spectacle of athleticism as much as true talent and skill.

 

[rstone7727]

I mean how do players with "onions" the size of g-mac not make it at the next level but other idiots do? The college game is a more "pure" style of basketball where the NBA is more free and open and for the most part a spectacle of athleticism as much as true talent and skill.

Nicely said.

 

[realorange]

I haven't seen anyone address the difference between getting a player ready for the NBA versus putting together a winning team. Is this a chicken and egg thing or is it just a lot of bs on that high school coaches part.
One thing that most of us agree on is JB's ability to take players who were not highly ranked coming out of high school and turning them into good college players. I guess he's failed if he doesn't make them NBA ready.