SU's schedule compared to other top teams

[bnoro]

He's not "bashing" the schedule. Just playing devil's advocate. And, his post was more objective than those of the apologists.

But, whatever. I'm still unsure why so many people are so gung-ho to defend our schedule. As if they prefer not facing anyone decent until the regular season. You'd all rather not have any December games on 'real tv?' You'd rather have to 'tune in' to All Access to see George Washington while other top 10 teams are playing Elite 8 teams...

Of course, JB always has his rationalizations in-hand. "West Cactus Tech has a lot of seniors. They'll be better later, and probably in the tournament... SW Divisional State was runner-up in its league championship and they shoot the three real well... Colgate knows us so well, so there's no surprises for them... And Calamity has an Equipment Manager who could manage for any team in the Big East."

I'd love to see us schedule like Michigan State but that doesn't always help the team. This year, most of the teams we played will be in the top 2 of their leagues at the end of the year. Strong mid major schedule.

 

[Knicks411]

I'd love to see us schedule like Michigan State but that doesn't always help the team. This year, most of the teams we played will be in the top 2 of their leagues at the end of the year. Strong mid major schedule.

You think so? That will make it look better, but who did you have in mind? These are the non BCS teams we've played.

Fordham, Manhattan, Albany, Colgate, Eastern Michigan, Marshall, GW.

Right now, Ken Pom has Fordham projected to finish last in the A-10.
Manhattan is projected to finish 4th in the MAAC. (Though to be fair, pretty close to second)
Albany is projected to finish 4th in the America East, also fairly close to second.
Colgate is projected to finish last in the patriot league
Eastern Michigan is projected to finish 10th in the MAC.
Marshall is projected to finish 2nd in C-USA.
Gw is projected to finish 12th int he A-10.

We are still to play Bucknell and Tulane.
Bucknell is projected to finish second in the Patriot league.
Tulane is projected to finish 5th in C-USA.

Of the 9 non BCS teams we played, nearly half of them (4; Fordhima, Colgate Eastern Michigan, and GW) are projected to finish at the bottom of their league). No one is projected to win their league, though Bucknell and Marshall look to be strong contenders.

 

[bnoro]

You think so? That will make it look better, but who did you have in mind? These are the non BCS teams we've played.

Fordham, Manhattan, Albany, Colgate, Eastern Michigan, Marshall, GW.

Right now, Ken Pom has Fordham projected to finish last in the A-10.
Manhattan is projected to finish 4th in the MAAC. (Though to be fair, pretty close to second)
Albany is projected to finish 4th in the America East, also fairly close to second.
Colgate is projected to finish last in the patriot league
Eastern Michigan is projected to finish 10th in the MAC.
Marshall is projected to finish 2nd in C-USA.
Gw is projected to finish 12th int he A-10.

We are still to play Bucknell and Tulane.
Bucknell is projected to finish second in the Patriot league.
Tulane is projected to finish 5th in C-USA.

Of the 9 non BCS teams we played, nearly half of them (4; Fordhima, Colgate Eastern Michigan, and GW) are projected to finish at the bottom of their league). No one is projected to win their league, though Bucknell and Marshall look to be strong contenders.

Projections don't mean anything. Lets see how it is at the end of the year. Not surprisingly, you left out Stanford and VT. VT could finish top 4 in the ACC, and Stanford might win the Pac-12.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

I'd love to see us schedule like Michigan State but that doesn't always help the team. This year, most of the teams we played will be in the top 2 of their leagues at the end of the year. Strong mid major schedule.

I get it. I'm not saying the teams we've been playing 'stink.' I'm saying there's a persistent aroma. It's being reported and commented upon 'as fact,' over a long period of time. That doesn't help our program, if you believe public+media perception has anything to do with anything.

And saying something "doesn't always help the team" assumes you can see diverging paths of reality. How can you possibly know if something helped the team or didn't? If we scheduled 'tough' early, and lost all of those difficult games, how do you know that wouldn't help us come tournament time? To avoid those 'upsets?' How do you know that one season of early tests wouldn't have resulted in a final four instead of a flameout?

If the objective is to pad JB's resume and credentials, well-done. That's what we accomplish, yearly.

What i've proposed, since long ago, is akin to what's been suggested above. Play those "BCS Schools." A win against a bad Michigan/UCLA/Arizona State team on CBS looks better to the media and the fans than a win over Marshall on All-Access. I'm not even saying we should go in whole-hog. Pepper them in. Even one more, per year. Or, play the tougher early tournaments. One that features a team projected to be better than us. Get out of NY - early - so they can't blather on about that spurious 'stat.'

What does stink is the constant need to defend ridiculousness. If we were Michigan State fans, we'd applaud the scheduling and mock Syracuse's. Why can't you look at it from the outside. It's just a question. A discussion among committed fans.

 

[Knicks411]

Projections don't mean anything. Lets see how it is at the end of the year. Not surprisingly, you left out Stanford and VT. VT could finish top 4 in the ACC, and Stanford might win the Pac-12.

Ok, sorry, I did leave them out, I thought you were only referring to the non BCS schools, hence the reference to the good mid major schedule. My fault; you are right about Stanford, they are looking pretty good right now.

You are right projections dont mean much, but when what is your basis for saying most of the teams will finish top 2 in their conference? Isn't that just your projection?

What does stink is the constant need to defend ridiculousness. If we were Michigan State fans, we'd applaud the scheduling and mock Syracuse's. Why can't you look at it from the outside. It's just a question. A discussion among committed fans.

Agree with this. Also I think that we don't notice it as much when people comment on other teams not playing schedules as tough. But it is also true that we have gotten that reputation, so it becomes part of the story now with SU; we don't play a lot of road games.

To me, as a fan, it kinda sucks that for the first 2 months of the season, we have 3-4 games where it's even much of a fight. I went to the NIT over Thanksgiving; that was awesome. Watching the Florida game was very cool; I wish we had more games like that in the first 6-8 weeks of the year.

 

[bnoro]

What i've proposed, since long ago, is akin to what's been suggested above. Play those "BCS Schools." A win against a bad Michigan/UCLA/Arizona State team on CBS looks better to the media and the fans than a win over Marshall on All-Access. I'm not even saying we should go in whole-hog. Pepper them in. Even one more, per year. Or, play the tougher early tournaments. One that features a team projected to be better than us. Get out of NY - early - so they can't blather on about that spurious 'stat.'

We are playing "BCS schools." Stanford, VT, NC State, Florida. Of course, we get ripped on every year anyways. We could play Duke, Kansas, and UK at the Dome and the excuse would still be we haven't left NY State.

Hell, Duke refused to play Pitt in the Carquest Classic last week because they were afraid of Pitt having a home court advantage at MSG.

 

[Knicks411]

We are playing "BCS schools." Stanford, VT, NC State, Florida. Of course, we get ripped on every year anyways. We could play Duke, Kansas, and UK at the Dome and the excuse would still be we haven't left NY State.

Hell, Duke refused to play Pitt in the Carquest Classic last week because they were afraid of Pitt having a home court advantage at MSG.

I don't remember getting ripped in 2009, when we played Florida and Kansas in Kansas City, and Memphis at Memphis.

In 2009, we had the #2 SOS in the country, according to Ken Pom, and the #13 non conference SOS.

 

[Knicks411]

Agree with this. Also I think that we don't notice it as much when people comment on other teams not playing schedules as tough. But it is also true that we have gotten that reputation, so it becomes part of the story now with SU; we don't play a lot of road games.

Just to follow up on my own post, Brennan did make the point last week in a chat that tOSU hadn't played a road game yet.

 

[bnoro]

I don't remember getting ripped in 2009, when we played Florida and Kansas in Kansas City, and Memphis at Memphis.

In 2009, we had the #2 SOS in the country, according to Ken Pom, and the #13 non conference SOS.

We were absolutely ripped in 09. Kansas City was a neutral floor so they said that wasn't too big of a win, and Florida was in Tampa I think and they said Florida didn't have a homecourt advantage. There was some beef with Memphis too.

 

[CorduroyG]

We are playing "BCS schools." Stanford, VT, NC State, Florida. Of course, we get ripped on every year anyways. We could play Duke, Kansas, and UK at the Dome and the excuse would still be we haven't left NY State.

Hell, Duke refused to play Pitt in the Carquest Classic last week because they were afraid of Pitt having a home court advantage at MSG.

Exactly. We didnt get any credit for beating georgia tech and michigan last year cause supposedly they sucked, even though michigan made the tournament.

Could the non conference schedule be more challenging? Of course, but its not a joke like some people claim. This year we're actually doing something we dont normally do, playing a true non conference road game against a bcs opponent. But of course the spin is either "theyre not leaving ny state till dec 17" or "its not a tough road game" or some bs. I mean look at the espn write up yesterday saying we dont have any challenging games coming up. Its a joke, unless we schedule kansas and kentucky ON THE ROAD every year we'll get ripped no matter what.

 

[Knicks411]

We were absolutely ripped in 09. Kansas City was a neutral floor so they said that wasn't too big of a win, and Florida was in Tampa I think and they said Florida didn't have a homecourt advantage. There was some beef with Memphis too.

I don't think that is ripping, was anyone saying our schedule wasn't that tough? Pointing out that playing Kansas in KC isn't the same as in Phog isn't ripping, it's making a fair point.

Florida was in Kansas City, as well as Kansas. I would love to hear what the beef was with Memphis, since we ended their home court winning streak and did so without Devo.

Any cites for this? I know it was 3 years ago, but I don't remember the normal comments about our non conference schedule that year; probably because we actually challenged ourselves.

 

[Knicks411]

Could the non conference schedule be more challenging? Of course, but its not a joke like some people claim. This year we're actually doing something we dont normally do, playing a true non conference road game against a bcs opponent.

I kinda think the fact that we don't normally play a true non conference road game against a BCS opponent is a good argument that our non conference schedule is often a joke.

But I also think we are speaking past each other a bit.

There are people out there who don't follow our schedule very closely, and make the cracks about not leaving the state or what have you. That's annoying, especially last year when it's Atlantic city, which is like 400 miles away from Syracuse. That was one of the stupider ones I've heard.

And there are other big time schools out there that play a cupcake schedule, littered with home games, like we do.

But that doesn't mean there aren't legitimate points to be made about how challenging our non conference schedule typically is. I don't really care what random ESPN talking head says about our schedule, if they want to act like we aren't leaving the Dome because AC is 400 miles away or because we have a lot of fans at the garden, they can feel free to be wrong. Most years, I'm generally not happy with the schedule we play in November and December, and it's not because of what someone on ESPN or CBS says. It's for a few reasons
1) I like watching SU play! I particularly like watching them play competitive games against good teams
2) I think it's good for us to challenge ourselves early in the season, to see what are strengths and weaknesses are. I think that can benefit the team later in the season. It's one thing to see a team in practice, but another to see how a team does against good competition. This goes double for playing good teams on neutral sites, which is a good proxy for March.
3) It helps us with seeding.

So I guess my point is, to combat me knocking the schedule by saying other teams schedule poorly as well, or ESPN would rip us anyway, that doesn't do much for me. (I don't think we'd be ripped if we played a 2009 type schedule every year, but even if we were, I wouldn't care). That doesn't mean it isn't true, at least part of it, but I don't want to schedule tough to shut up Eamon Brennan or Joe Lunardi or whoever we don't like this week.

 

[CorduroyG]

We were absolutely ripped in 09. Kansas City was a neutral floor so they said that wasn't too big of a win, and Florida was in Tampa I think and they said Florida didn't have a homecourt advantage. There was some beef with Memphis too.

THe memphis win was discredited a little cuz it was before calipari moved tyreke evans to pg and that completely changed their team.

 

[Upstate]

Home or away, we play the teams we play and we beat the turd out of them. We should be #1.

 

[SkanSU]

Projections aren't today!! and who makes those projections. We aren't playing the April team ... we are playing the team today,or yesterday, or tomorrow... not the march or april team. As I have pointed out the teams we have played (other than a few) are not "projected" to be anywhere but are presently at the top of their conference.

and Zelda ... please get off the BCS train. See the schedule I posted for OSU... for Georgetown ... and I could probably go on and on with each and every of the "elite eight" teams ... and do you want to know how many of those were on their home court as opposed to a neutral or opposing team court ... almost every single one. Syracuse has just been a whipping boy for the same thing every "big" team does. When do Duke and N. Carolina venture out of North Carolina ... or OSU out of Ohio. We played Florida here b/c 2 years ago we played Florida in Florida ... and what a big deal that was for the media. ... and that same year we played Kansas in Kansas ... woo hoo. Like all the good teams we have a good solid prep schedule ... with difficult teams. Wait until we get to the BE.

Before you run the crap about SU should be like other "elite" teams and play and really, really tough early schedule ... take a look at those teams and don't just make 1 comparison (i.e. Duke) ... look at them all. They are stocked with mid-majors.

and P.S.: I am not a Michigan State fan ... I am a Syracuse fan and I don't give 1 crap about what the Michiigan State fans think ... we are #1... they're not.

 

[SWC75]

I think it's kind of unfair that we play in the toughest conference in the country and yet we are expected to schedule non-conference opponents as if we were trying to get a reputation.

I think the #1 ranking is based on the program's reptuation, the fact that we have a lot of guys back from last year and we're undefeated. That not be enough but there it is. Let's just ride this wave as far as it can go.

 

[OttosBestFriend]

Projections don't mean anything. Lets see how it is at the end of the year. Not surprisingly, you left out Stanford and VT. VT could finish top 4 in the ACC, and Stanford might win the Pac-12.

Good lord, please stop comparing Stanford & Virginia Tech to the likes to Ohio State, Duke, UNC, Michigan State, Kentucky, Texas, and Kansas.

Because they are not.

And yet, all those big name elite schools I just listed seem to play several games against each other EVERY season while we play, your "big name" entries Stanford and Virginia Tech - Wow, those are "must see" games for all of America. (EDIT: Florida was a great big name game I initially overlooked - so that's one)

It's not even close at the top of those other school's non-conference schedules compared to SU's - and hasn't been for more than a decade.

No one is saying the Big East portion of the Syracuse schedule isn't a gauntlet - but the early season schedule sucks giant Hoya balls.

Why is it that you continue trying to pretend that SU's non-conf schedule is anything other than pedestrian?

 

[Knicks411]

Projections aren't today!! and who makes those projections. We aren't playing the April team ... we are playing the team today,or yesterday, or tomorrow... not the march or april team. As I have pointed out the teams we have played (other than a few) are not "projected" to be anywhere but are presently at the top of their conference.

How can you tell they are at the top of their conference when they haven't played any conference games yet? If that's your argument, then fine, not even worth discussing.

I think it's kind of unfair that we play in the toughest conference in the country and yet we are expected tyo schedule non-conference opponents as if we were trying to get a reputation.

I don't think it's all that unfair when most of the other top teams in the country play each other a few times. And I don't think it's to get a reputation. I don't think Roy Williams is playing @Kentucky to get his team noticed.

 

[OttosBestFriend]

What does stink is the constant need to defend ridiculousness. If we were Michigan State fans, we'd applaud the scheduling and mock Syracuse's. Why can't you look at it from the outside. It's just a question. A discussion among committed fans.

We do just this... except not in hoops, but in football.

How often do 'Cuse football fans mock Rutgers' scheduling of softies - year after year? ANSWER: Always

All we do is rag on Snookie U for their crappy non-conf schedule while Syracuse tests themselves with 2 or 3 big name games against quality opponents each season.

Funny how when it's a 'Cuse program that schedules crap a bunch of Orange apologists refuse to acknowledge it.

 

[OttosBestFriend]

I think it's kind of unfair that we play in the toughest conference in the country and yet we are expected to schedule non-conference opponents as if we were trying to get a reputation.

Tell that to SEC football fans who, for as long as I can remember, don't schedule tough very many tough non-conference games... And everyone I know bitches about it - Including most people on this board.

 

[SkanSU]

and since I'm on a rant about comparing SU with other "elite team" schedules, let's take a look:
#2 OSU 9/10 home games
#3 Kentucky 15/16 home games and don't play away until January 11th
#4 Louisville 13/14 home games and don't play another away game until December 31st
#5 North Carolina 15/17 home games and don't play another away game until January 14th
#6 Baylor (I think) 7/9 home games and don't play another away game until January 7th
#7 Duke 11/12 home games and don't play another away game until January 4th
#8 Xavier 6/8 home games and don't play another away game until January 4th

and if you decide to exercise yourself a tad you will please note that all those "home" games are chock full of mid-majors with nary a "BCS" team to be found.

and damn I'm getting sick of being called an apologist ...SU or myself have nothing to apologize for... and iit's pretty arrogant that one should feel they are right and then expect everyone to jump up and say ... Damn he's right as usual ... and if they don''t they are labeled an apologist.

 

[Knicks411]

Duke has played only 4 home games this year, and they're playign road games at Ohio State and Temple. They also played 5 neutral site games.

UNC has played 2 away games (though one was UNC ashevulle), and a neutral site with UNLV inVegas. Plus Michigan State on the boat, and South Carolina in Vegas.

Honestly though, I am less worked up about the home/road split as opposed to who we play. If we played Wisconsin at home, @Kentucky, UNLV in Vegas, and Mich State on a neutral site, I don't really care who else we play. That works for me.

Ohio State's schedule is pretty soft, but at least they played Florida and Duke at home, and went to Kansas. If we played those 3, I'm fine with the rest of the schedule b eing cupcakes.

Though it might be a little misleading to look at just the top 8 or whatever, some of those teams (I'm thinking of Baylor, and maybe Louisville) are ranked high because they have played a soft schedule and haven't lost yet.

Where are you coming up the home games? Kentucky has played 5 home games, 3 neutrals, and a road game.

 

[OttosBestFriend]

and since I'm on a rant about comparing SU with other "elite team" schedules, let's take a look:
#2 OSU 9/10 home games
#3 Kentucky 15/16 home games and don't play away until January 11th
#4 Louisville 13/14 home games and don't play another away game until December 31st
#5 North Carolina 15/17 home games and don't play another away game until January 14th
#6 Baylor (I think) 7/9 home games and don't play another away game until January 7th
#7 Duke 11/12 home games and don't play another away game until January 4th
#8 Xavier 6/8 home games and don't play another away game until January 4th

and if you decide to exercise yourself a tad you will please note that all those "home" games are chock full of mid-majors with nary a "BCS" team to be found.

and damn I'm getting sick of being called an apologist ...SU or myself have nothing to apologize for... and iit's pretty arrogant that one should feel they are right and then expect everyone to jump up and say ... Damn he's right as usual ... and if they don''t they are labeled an apologist.

PLEASE NOTE: This debate has NEVER been about Home/Away for me.

It's all about quality opponents and made-for-TV "national games" at the top of our non-conference schedule.

I don't care if we don't play a true away game until after the Super Bowl - So long as 'Cuse ups the ante and plays the 3 (or even 4) of the "big boys" each season in non-conference. If we played 3-4 HUGE TV games, then I wouldn't care if 'Cuse played double-headers against Colgate, Iona, and every other crappy NY State hoops program.

Problem is, we rarely if ever play the true "big boys" in non-conference.

Sure, there's an occasional tough "big name" opponent every so often (see Florida this season), but, for the most part, SU does not schedule them in bunches like most of the other "elite" or "blue-blood" schools - And THAT is what disappoints me.

Is this really that difficult for you to acknowledge?

 

[SkanSU]

Forgot ... there have been tournaments and I really think Duke is a true exception this year. Mea culpa... and for what reason should SU be any different in scheduling than the other "elite" programs.When it comes to conference time who is going to challenge Kentucky in the SEC (Florida, Alabama?), or Kansas in the Big 12, or Duke/North Carolina in the ACC (VT, NC State?) ... granted OSU will have a much tougher road to ride. But the BE? (UConn, L'ville, Pitt, Marquette ... and we get to play L'ville and UConn 2x).

 

[SkanSU]

PLEASE NOTE: This debate has NEVER been about Home/Away for me.

It's all about quality opponents and made-for-TV "national games" at the top of our non-conference schedule.

I don't care if we don't play a true away game until after the Super Bowl - So long as 'Cuse ups the ante and plays the 3 (or even 4) of the "big boys" each season in non-conference. If we played 3-4 HUGE TV games, then I wouldn't care if 'Cuse played double-headers against Colgate, Iona, and every other crappy NY State hoops program.

Problem is, we rarely if ever play the true "big boys" in non-conference.

Sure, there's an occasional tough "big name" opponent every so often (see Florida this season), but, for the most part, SU does not schedule them in bunches like most of the other "elite" or "blue-blood" schools - And THAT is what disappoints me.

Is this really that difficult for you to acknowledge?

I'm still waiting for the "big boy" or "blue blood" schedules ... other than tournament play ...(and Duke is an exception- granted) ... that you all claim they play and are so superior to SU's... and why is it that you all are so caught up on made-for-TV national games. We certainly get enough of those during conference play ... and I believe we have had 2 already (Stanford and Florida... btw both quality opponents)