Targeting noncall

[albanyorange]

Is there anybody else but me wondering if The ACC is looking at the Dungey play to see if it was in fact a Targeting hit ? From the view I saw it looks like the Pitt player led with his helmet and went high on purpose .
Since there is so much going on about this, the other teams are acutely aware of it and bet more than one player will try to take Dungey out. Now he has a target bigger than usual on him.

 

[Rocco]

If other teams can knock Dungey out of the game, it immensely makes their defense's job ALOT easier.

And no offense to Zack "The Sheriff" Mahoney.

 

[HeaterCuse22]

That's why having a QB smart enough to realize that if someone hits him high, if its sold the right way, he may get a 15 yard penalty and an ejection. Even if it costs him 2 min.

 

[RMH44]

Is there anybody else but me wondering if The ACC is looking at the Dungey play to see if it was in fact a Targeting hit ? From the view I saw it looks like the Pitt player led with his helmet and went high on purpose .
Since there is so much going on about this, the other teams are acutely aware of it and bet more than one player will try to take Dungey out. Now he has a target bigger than usual on him.

I mentioned this after the game. Number 3 absolutely led with the crown of his helmet which, by definition, is targeting.

I also think a case could have been made that the Virginia player who hit ED at the goal line after his famous leap could have been flagged for targeting as well.

 

[MikeSU02]

I mentioned this after the game. Number 3 absolutely led with the crown of his helmet which, by definition, is targeting.

I also think a case could have been made that the Virginia player who hit ED at the goal line after his famous leap could have been flagged for targeting as well.

I agree.

The coaches have to convince and teach ED to give up half a yard to either slide or step out of bounds. I appreciate the effort, but he needs to be avoid end of play hits.

 

[Yegorange]

If NCAA really were serious about concussions, especially to QBs, they would've gone farther with the targeting rule. Any hit to QB's head - whether with a helmet or not - should automatically result in an immediate review. How is the Franklin hit reviewed and the Dungey hit not? Or the one after The Hurdle? Nonsense.

 

[TexanMark]

The Pitt hit was closer to targeting than the UVA one IMHO. I had a Pitt fan admit he wouldn't have been surprised if the flag came out. I thought it was a Football play myself...file it under "it is a violent game".

The UVA hit was close to targeting but it appears to me he hit the shoulder on the replay.

 

[CuseCrew08]

I noticed a couple other plays where I thought a Pitt player intentionally lowered his head to hit our player with the crown of his helmet. The other play that comes to mind was the punt return in which Estime called for a fair catch but the ball landed in end zone. The Pitt player lowered his head and drove it right into Estime's face mask. They called a personal foul on the play but I felt that it should also have been called targeting.

 

[Yegorange]

Neither hit may have been targeting, but both should've been reviewed automatically. They correctly determined Zaire's hit was not. Same could've applied on those. Should be in the definition of the targeting rule - when to review.

 

[StanCuse44]

I mentioned this exact thing to my wife this morning. Still bugs me that there was no call (or at least a review!) against Pitt for targeting.

Did Shafer (and coaches) even get after the refs on that hit that KO'd ED? IMO Coach needs to make a much bigger deal of these hits on Dungey - both in-game and with the ACC. Might help ED survive (and the team win - I.e., penalty calls). We play a very aggressive D yet we are somehow able to avoid targeting and cheap shots on opposing QBs.

I have no problem with big hits on QBs but targeting and cheap shots are total BS.

 

[Crusty]

I don't think the Pitt hit was targeting. Close, but it looked to me to be a bang bang play.

Target—to take aim at an opponent for purposes of attacking with an apparent intent that goes beyond making a legal tackle or a legal block or playing the ball.
Defenseless player—a player not in position to defend himself.

Examples (Rule 2-27-14):

• A player in the act of or just after throwing a pass.
• A receiver attempting to catch a pass, or one who has completed a catch and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a ball carrier.
• A kicker in the act of or just after kicking a ball, or during the kick or the return.
• A kick returner attempting to catch or recover a kick.
• A player on the ground.
• A player obviously out of the play.
• A player who receives a blind-side block.
• A ball carrier already in the grasp of an opponent and whose forward progress has been stopped.
• A quarterback any time after a change of possession.

KEY INDICATORS

Risk of a foul is high with one or more of these:

• Launch—a player leaving his feet to attack an opponent by an upward and forward thrust of the body to make contact in the head or neck area
• A crouch followed by an upward and forward thrust to attack with contact at the head or neck area—even though one or both feet are still on the ground
• Leading with helmet, forearm, fist, hand or elbow to attack with contact at the head or neck area
• Lowering the head before attacking by initiating contact with the crown of the helmet

These indicate less risk of a foul:

• Heads-up tackle in which the crown of the helmet does not strike above the shoulders
• Wrap-up tackle
• Head is to the side rather than being used to initiate contact
• Incidental helmet contact that is not part of targeting but is due to the players changing position during the course of play

 

[PhatOrange]

I mentioned this exact thing to my wife this morning. Still bugs me that there was no call (or at least a review!) against Pitt for targeting.

Did Shafer (and coaches) even get after the refs on that hit that KO'd ED? IMO Coach needs to make a much bigger deal of these hits on Dungey - both in-game and with the ACC. Might help ED survive (and the team win - I.e., penalty calls). We play a very aggressive D yet we are somehow able to avoid targeting and cheap shots on opposing QBs.
.

If Shafer gets too fired up on the sideline (at the officials) it just gives the yo yo's more to complain about.

 

[StanCuse44]

If Shafer gets too fired up on the sideline (at the officials) it just gives the yo yo's more to complain about.

Looking out for your starting QB is a good reason to get fired up... yo-yo's be damned!

 

[FrancoPizza]

Maybe we should just do away with helmets? Might discourage head-butting... and we wouldn't have to debate the block S anymore.

 

[StanCuse44]

"...

KEY INDICATORS

• Lowering the head before attacking by initiating contact with the crown of the helmet

..."

I'm not a ref but I think it should've been a penalty. The Pitt player was on the run with the intention of laying a big hit on our QB. Fine. BUT then he lowered - AND initiated contact with - his helmet to make the big hit. He definitely hit ED in the head with his helmet resulting in a vicious hit. IMO the "risk of foul is high" in this case. Guilty!!

 

[StanCuse44]

(Edit: re FrancoPizza's post about doing away with helmets...)

You might have a point there: like playing tackle football at the park... shoulder and arm tackling all the way. Although I do remember crashing my helmetless-head into a teammate's head when making a tackle coming from opposite directions. My head still hurts just thinking about that one. Undiagnosed concussion?

 

[MikeSU02]

http://www.syracuse.com/orangefootb...ungey_syracuse_football_quarterback_hits.html

"I've always tried to get the extra yard," Dungey said, "but at this level you just have to get down, be smart and protect your body."

Thank you, ED and Lester. Keep your head on and stay in the game.

 

[perdurabo]

Just ban helmets. They are weapons, not protection.

 

[Brooky03]

I don't think it was targetting. But, in fairness, I'm not a fan of the targetting rules at all.

From the stills provided a few posts above, it looks like Dungey's level changed because he was being tackled and it looks like the defender intended to lead with his shoulder. Physically, it's borderline impossible to not lead with your head when making a tackle, in that your head 99% of the time will be in front of your body during all tackle attempts. There's the distinction of leading with the crown of your helmet vs. your facemask, but that's not always, or even most of the time, a conscious decision you get to make as a defender. At full speed, when you drop your shoulder or lower your hips to make a hit, you're likely going to drop your head a little bit. It's just how it is. Even disciplined tacklers do it often.

Sorry for the rant. Bottom line, I don't think this defender intended to hit Dungey helmet to helmet, I don't think it should be a penalty, and I don't think defenders on other teams are going to intentionally spear him with their helmets just to knock him out of the game. I think teams are going to try to hit him high and hit him really hard because he's a quarterback, and I have no problem with that. Until like 5 years ago, we called that football. I'm aware more and more is being revealed about the impact of concussions, but we can't let the rules get out of hand. There is evidence that repeatedly hitting a soccer ball with your head could do as much damage as a few nasty hits in football. Should soccer make headers illegal?

I have a feeling this post might not be too popular, but there it is. end rant.

 

[rrlbees]

"... KEY INDICATORS [*]Lowering the head before attacking by initiating contact with the crown of the helmet ..." I'm not a ref but I think it should've been a penalty. The Pitt player was on the run with the intention of laying a big hit on our QB. Fine. BUT then he lowered - AND initiated contact with - his helmet to make the big hit. He definitely hit ED in the head with his helmet resulting in a vicious hit. IMO the "risk of foul is high" in this case. Guilty!!

I think those pics point out what I've said all along. The defender is going low in that first pic, like defenders are taught to do. Tackle low. Next pic ED bends and lowers his head causing the contact. He even says he tries to get extra yardage. Instead of lowering your head like a RB going into the line, when he sees or "feels" that hit coming, just go down man.

 

[StanCuse44]

I think those pics point out what I've said all along. The defender is going low in that first pic, like defenders are taught to do. Tackle low. Next pic ED bends and lowers his head causing the contact. He even says he tries to get extra yardage. Instead of lowering your head like a RB going into the line, when he sees or "feels" that hit coming, just go down man.

I agree that he needs to get down fast(er).

Looking at the pics... ED's helmet is a fraction lower in the second still image. But his shoulders and hips are in almost the exact same position. So the Pitt player maybe would've hit him in the chin/neck or collar bone area (?) instead of side of helmet, I suppose. But he definitely wasn't aiming for ED's hips or legs.

There's a shot right before these where the Pitt player is "head up" and Dungey sees him coming and tries to brace for impact. Pitt guy lowers the boom after that.

(Edit: uploaded blurry image where Dungey sees him coming and Pitt player's head is "up")

 

[Brooky03]

I agree that he needs to get down fast(er).

Looking at the pics... ED's helmet is a fraction lower in the second still image. But his shoulders and hips are in almost the exact same position. So the Pitt player maybe would've hit him in the chin/neck or collar bone area (?) instead of side of helmet, I suppose. But he definitely wasn't aiming for ED's hips or legs.

There's a shot right before these where the Pitt player is "head up" and Dungey sees him coming and tries to brace for impact. Pitt guy lowers the boom after that.

(Edit: uploaded blurry image where Dungey sees him coming and Pitt player's head is "up")
View attachment 53376

Trust me, the last thing you want defenders doing is aiming for the hips/legs. A helmet to the knee will ruin a career way faster than a helmet to the head. I think the Pitt player was aiming for Dungey's chest, which is fine.

 

[Crusty]

"...

KEY INDICATORS

• Lowering the head before attacking by initiating contact with the crown of the helmet

..."

I'm not a ref but I think it should've been a penalty. The Pitt player was on the run with the intention of laying a big hit on our QB. Fine. BUT then he lowered - AND initiated contact with - his helmet to make the big hit. He definitely hit ED in the head with his helmet resulting in a vicious hit. IMO the "risk of foul is high" in this case. Guilty!!

View attachment 53374
View attachment 53375

These photos show both players heads getting lower, which is probably the reason for the no call.
Incidental helmet contact that is not part of targeting but is due to the players changing position during the course of play

 

[Moontan]

Just a quick correction...

During last game's chat it was decided that the proper abbreviation for Eric Dungey is "EFD".

 

[PhatOrange]

tell me this isn't leading with the head.