Targeting noncall

[Brooky03]

tell me this isn't leading with the head.

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It is, but you could find double digit examples of this in every game. At full speed, it's not as cut and dry as it would seem. In this picture for example, are we counting that has helmet to helmet, or since most of the defenders helmet is hitting Dungey's shoulder, is it an okay hit?

 

[PhatOrange]

It is, but you could find double digit examples of this in every game. At full speed, it's not as cut and dry as it would seem. In this picture for example, are we counting that has helmet to helmet, or since most of the defenders helmet is highting Dungey's shoulder, is it an okay hit?

i'm counting it as leading with the crown of the head. that's how you end up paralyzed. officials should be flagging it.

 

[Brooky03]

i'm counting it as leading with the crown of the head. that's how you end up paralyzed. officials should be flagging it.

I don't know that it's that easy to see at full speed. 'Spearing' was the penalty generally used until the new targetting rules which covered the whole not leading with the top of your helmet thing, but I only saw maybe 2 spearing calls in a couple decades of football watching. Unless it's blatant, I don't think it's going to get called often.

 

[StanCuse44]

tell me this isn't leading with the head.

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Whoop, there it is.

Where did you find that pic (just curious)?

 

[Crusty]

tell me this isn't leading with the head.

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It is to the side and not in head or neck. Looks like the shoulder pad. If this is not allowed let's play flag football.

 

[StanCuse44]

Trust me, the last thing you want defenders doing is aiming for the hips/legs. A helmet to the knee will ruin a career way faster than a helmet to the head. I think the Pitt player was aiming for Dungey's chest, which is fine.

I know. I was replying to Bee's suggestion that Pitt's player was trying to "tackle low".

 

[jgeorge322]

im probably wrong but isnt there a class of players the targeting rule applies to which include a qb who just threw a ball and a wr who just caught a ball. another party is a player already on the ground or whose forward progress has been stopped by an opponent. dungey was a runner in both instances, so my thought was the rule does not apply.

 

[jgeorge322]

I don't think the Pitt hit was targeting. Close, but it looked to me to be a bang bang play.

Target—to take aim at an opponent for purposes of attacking with an apparent intent that goes beyond making a legal tackle or a legal block or playing the ball.
Defenseless player—a player not in position to defend himself.

Examples (Rule 2-27-14):

• A player in the act of or just after throwing a pass.
• A receiver attempting to catch a pass, or one who has completed a catch and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a ball carrier.
• A kicker in the act of or just after kicking a ball, or during the kick or the return.
• A kick returner attempting to catch or recover a kick.
• A player on the ground.
• A player obviously out of the play.
• A player who receives a blind-side block.
• A ball carrier already in the grasp of an opponent and whose forward progress has been stopped.
• A quarterback any time after a change of possession.

KEY INDICATORS

Risk of a foul is high with one or more of these:

• Launch—a player leaving his feet to attack an opponent by an upward and forward thrust of the body to make contact in the head or neck area
• A crouch followed by an upward and forward thrust to attack with contact at the head or neck area—even though one or both feet are still on the ground
• Leading with helmet, forearm, fist, hand or elbow to attack with contact at the head or neck area
• Lowering the head before attacking by initiating contact with the crown of the helmet

These indicate less risk of a foul:

• Heads-up tackle in which the crown of the helmet does not strike above the shoulders
• Wrap-up tackle
• Head is to the side rather than being used to initiate contact
• Incidental helmet contact that is not part of targeting but is due to the players changing position during the course of play

sorry, just saw this. it was not targeting because dungey was not in the protected class of players. the only one that dungey may have qualified is: A ball carrier already in the grasp of an opponent and whose forward progress has been stopped. however, his forward progress wasn't stopped on this play. no targeting.

regarding the va play, it definitely was not targeting and dungey should never try that move again unless hes 1000% sure he is 1:1... and even then...

 

[rrlbees]

I know. I was replying to Bee's suggestion that Pitt's player was trying to "tackle low".

Tackle low doesn't mean head to knee like someone said. Tackle low to me means shoulder pads to the waist area and arms wrapping up around the legs.

 

[PhatOrange]

Whoop, there it is.

Where did you find that pic (just curious)?

it's over at the newspaper site but I don't believe this is the hit that knocked him to the locker room. i think this is just a random hit.

 

[PhatOrange]

It is to the side and not in head or neck. Looks like the shoulder pad. If this is not allowed let's play flag football.

This isn't about hitting Dungey. It's about the Pitt player spearing and has been against the rules for forever. It's not allowed at any level. This is how kids are taught NOT to tackle so they don't wind up paralyzed.

 

[PhatOrange]

I don't know that it's that easy to see at full speed. 'Spearing' was the penalty generally used until the new targetting rules which covered the whole not leading with the top of your helmet thing, but I only saw maybe 2 spearing calls in a couple decades of football watching. Unless it's blatant, I don't think it's going to get called often.

obviously you can't police every one - just like holding - but when a ref 'does' see it, they should call it. It's in place to protect the player's own safety. Not enforcing these types of rules leads to injuries and poor fundamentals. Nobody is taught to tackle with their head.

 

[PhatOrange]

Tackle low doesn't mean head to knee like someone said. Tackle low to me means shoulder pads to the waist area and arms wrapping up around the legs.

exactly. Midget DBs who try and tackle high is maddening. Does anybody teach shoulder pads through the waist and wrapping the legs anymore?

 

[StanCuse44]

.. means shoulder pads to the waist area and arms wrapping up around the legs.

Yes, I understood what you meant by that.

 

[Brooky03]

I know. I was replying to Bee's suggestion that Pitt's player was trying to "tackle low".

My bad. I meant to quote the post you responded to, not your post.

edit: or I just misread whatever post I was trying to respond to haha. This is what happens when I hastily reply to posts at work.

 

[Brooky03]

exactly. Midget DBs who try and tackle high is maddening. Does anybody teach shoulder pads through the waist and wrapping the legs anymore?

It depends on the teacher. I had a varsity coach who taught you to put your facemask (head up) into the runner's chest and wrap your arms around his lower back. He was a college linebacker, so this probably applied more to linebackers and other interior players than DB's, but it was effective in the open field too. Some runningbacks have monster legs, so trying to wrap those suckers is not going to always work. It can be easier to wrap a little higher; you might go for a bit of a ride, but the tackle won't get completely broken like if you go for legs and miss.

The problem is wrapping up though. Most kids seems to want to make highlight reels now and just lower the boom without wrapping. More often than not, they end up looking like idiots.

 

[Brooky03]

obviously you can't police every one - just like holding - but when a ref 'does' see it, they should call it. It's in place to protect the player's own safety. Not enforcing these types of rules leads to injuries and poor fundamentals. Nobody is taught to tackle with their head.

Agreed that nobody is taught to tackle with their head, but I'd guess most instances of leading with the head are unintentional. It's tough to correct an unintentional behavior.

 

[tep624]

I noticed a couple other plays where I thought a Pitt player intentionally lowered his head to hit our player with the crown of his helmet. The other play that comes to mind was the punt return in which Estime called for a fair catch but the ball landed in end zone. The Pitt player lowered his head and drove it right into Estime's face mask. They called a personal foul on the play but I felt that it should also have been called targeting.

I noticed the same thing. I was watching the game and said to myself - man Pitt players sure do lead with their heads a lot.