Tempo

[kingottoiii]

I went back and looked at how many times we punted after only 3 plays and compared it to our opponents and it made me sick. I wish there was a way to see this number nationally because I am curious how bad our O and D were. Anyway here are the numbers:

Total
SU O 39 for an average of 3.25 a game
SU D 21 for an average of 1.75 a game

Interesting notes:

-The Pitt game was the only game we didn't have a 3 and out drive.

-Six times we had 3 in a game, once 4, and three 5 times! So that is 10 times of at least 3.

-Defensively we had only one 5 times. Our best was 3 which we achieved twice, and happened to be our first two games. So we certainly didn't get any better as the year went on. In fact our last three games were all one timers.

-Particularly bad on O were the Wake and Tulane games. For Tulane we opened up the 2nd half with a 4 and out followed by three 3 and outs. Seriously how in the hell does that happen? For Wake we started the game with FOUR 3 and outs and then followed that up with a TD and another 3 and out (so 5 of 6 drives to start the season). Again how is this even possible? I guess it was a good thing we went dark preseason otherwise Wake might have been better prepared!!!!

 

[Millhouse]

One philosophy seems to be to out-execute the opponent. The other seems to be to utilize tempo to out maneuver the opponent. Personally, I agree with Buddha. I would like to see SU do more to impose it's will upon the other team, through selective change of tempo -- not random stuff tried willy nilly. (That's the first time I've ever been able to use willy nilly in a post.) Get an advantage where you can to try and keep the opponent on their heels. As Buddha says, it's a way to level the "talent" playing field a little.

the two fastest teams i've ever seen are oregon and baylor. they also had incredible talent. you can amplify your advantage by going up tempo or you can hope to close the gap by going up tempo. if you're hoping to close the gap, it needs to swamp the cost of giving the other team more plays to amplify their own advantage.

we're going to be one of those teams that's so bad on offense that we won't close the gap enough to swamp the amplification of the other team's advantage

 

[TheOrangeBuddha]

Millhouse ... I think you are missing most of my point. Tempo can be controlled in many more ways than simply getting snaps every ten seconds. Hell, you could use the entire play clock EVERY play and still use tempo to your advantage by simply rushing to the line of scrimmage (with the same eleven remaining on the field) thus forcing the defense to keep its same eleven on the field. By having everyone lined up and ready to snap, should the defense even attempt to make changes, a simple snap will result in a free play and too many men on the field call or a defense with only 10 players (even with notoriously awful Big East officiating). This can be a huge advantage for the offense, especially in the Dome (with its oft times very humid playing conditions in September) where making the defense line up right away enables our offense more time to make proper reads and also tires out the defensive linemen by forcing them in their three point stances for extended periods.

Further, and you know this ... defenses play better with leads. Whatever allows the offense to perform at a higher function (within reason) and therefore hopefully score more points will assist the defense in stopping its opponent (make them one dimensional).

Hell just look at the Manning led Colts or Brady led Patriots ... especially the Colts (who I watch every week), the Colts offense would have very long drives using up significant chunks of the play clock while controlling tempo and often making it nearly impossible for defenses to substitute. And before you get nuts and take this thread in another direction by saying there is no Manning/Brady on the SU roster, there simply doesn't need to be.

We are talking about college defenses ... defenses that can be exploited by making them think faster than they want to ... make an extremely talented and athletic player think instead of react and you've won half the battle.

And yes ... the use of tempo by the offenses at Houston, Oregon, Baylor, Texas Tech (under Leach) etc., do indeed contribute to the success of those offenses.

Finally, execution is the key. Our coaching staff should be able to coach our players up in such a fashion to enable it to take advantage of these areas.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

the two fastest teams i've ever seen are oregon and baylor. they also had incredible talent. you can amplify your advantage by going up tempo or you can hope to close the gap. if you're hoping to close the gap, it needs to swamp the cost of giving the other team more plays to amplify their own advantage.

we're going to be one of those teams that's so bad on offense that we won't close the gap enough to swamp the amplification of the other team's advantage

Kelly played pretty fast at New Hampshire. I have a hard time buying that he had incredible talent there.

 

[Millhouse]

Kelly played pretty fast at New Hampshire. I have a hard time buying that he had incredible talent there.

compared to those other factories in the colonial athletic association

he was a real gambler to go up tempo against the likes of old dominion, and william and mary

they played against schools with girl's names in them. first clue that maybe a talent argument should be relative to the competition

 

[OttoinGrotto]

compared to those other factories in the colonial athletic association

he was a real gambler to go up tempo against the likes of old dominion, and william and mary

they played against schools with girl's names in them. first clue that maybe a talent argument should be relative to the competition

And you're picking on me for making dumb arguments?

 

[Millhouse]

Millhouse ... I think you are missing most of my point. Tempo can be controlled in many more ways than simply getting snaps every ten seconds. Hell, you could use the entire play clock EVERY play and still use tempo to your advantage by simply rushing to the line of scrimmage (with the same eleven remaining on the field) thus forcing the defense to keep its same eleven on the field. By having everyone lined up and ready to snap, should the defense even attempt to make changes, a simple snap will result in a free play and too many men on the field call or a defense with only 10 players (even with notoriously awful Big East officiating). This can be a huge advantage for the offense, especially in the Dome (with its oft times very humid playing conditions in September) where making the defense line up right away enables our offense more time to make proper reads and also tires out the defensive linemen by forcing them in their three point stances for extended periods.

Further, and you know this ... defenses play better with leads. Whatever allows the offense to perform at a higher function (within reason) and therefore hopefully score more points will assist the defense in stopping its opponent (make them one dimensional).

Hell just look at the Manning led Colts or Brady led Patriots ... especially the Colts (who I watch every week), the Colts offense would have very long drives using up significant chunks of the play clock while controlling tempo and often making it nearly impossible for defenses to substitute. And before you get nuts and take this thread in another direction by saying there is no Manning/Brady on the SU roster, there simply doesn't need to be.

We are talking about college defenses ... defenses that can be exploited by making them think faster than they want to ... make an extremely talented and athletic player think instead of react and you've won half the battle.

And yes ... the use of tempo by the offenses at Houston, Oregon, Baylor, Texas Tech (under Leach) etc., do indeed contribute to the success of those offenses.

Finally, execution is the key. Our coaching staff should be able to coach our players up in such a fashion to enable it to take advantage of these areas.

you missed my point. i assumed that going up tempo would make our offense more successful. i'm just saying going up tempo can hurt you if the other team still has a big enough per play advantage.

i've long argued that no huddle doesn't have to be fast. you don't need to tell me about the merits of no huddle. i'm a bills fan. marrone sees value in the subs on offense and maybe he doesn't think the QB needs his job to be any harder.

but when most people talk tempo, they want the ball snapped quickly, like oregon and baylor.

 

[Millhouse]

And you're picking on me for making dumb arguments?

No. I'm picking on you for being dumb and making arguments

 

[OttoinGrotto]

No. I'm picking on you for being dumb and making arguments

You're a gem.

 

[TheOrangeBuddha]

you missed my point. i assumed that going up tempo would make our offense more successful. i'm just saying going up tempo can hurt you if the other team still has a big enough per play advantage.

i've long argued that no huddle doesn't have to be fast. you don't need to tell me about the merits of no huddle. i'm a bills fan. marrone sees value in the subs on offense and maybe he doesn't think the QB needs his job to be any harder.

but when most people talk tempo, they want the ball snapped quickly, like oregon and baylor.

Okay ... understand your point and not entirely disagreeing. Just was shocked (having posted our thoughts/theories re: football etc. for over a decade now), at your retort since my points were quite similar to historical posts by you on the subject.

Now is the time to make the QB's job harder ... he's a frickin' 5th year senior. I would sure as hell hope he can figure out plays from signs and/or signals from the sideline and share those signs/signals with the rest of the offense while keeping his team in "ready" position to fire off at a moment's notice. Further, and I haven't seen it yet, but why don't we a have a small package of running/passing plays that EVERY offensive player knows in and out that can be run at blinding speed (execution is the most important thing) with very little detailed signs or signals? When defenses are put on their heels they automatically become more basic in their coverages, especially if spread them out to force the defense into certain coverages. I beg for the small "blinding speed" package to replace the current version of the two minute drill package they've shown for the past four years.

 

[Millhouse]

Okay ... understand your point and not entirely disagreeing. Just was shocked (having posted our thoughts/theories re: football etc. for over a decade now), at your retort since my points were quite similar to historical posts by you on the subject.

Now is the time to make the QB's job harder ... he's a frickin' 5th year senior. I would sure as hell hope he can figure out plays from signs and/or signals from the sideline and share those signs/signals with the rest of the offense while keeping his team in "ready" position to fire off at a moment's notice. Further, and I haven't seen it yet, but why don't we a have a small package of running/passing plays that EVERY offensive player knows in and out that can be run at blinding speed (execution is the most important thing) with very little detailed signs or signals? When defenses are put on their heels they automatically become more basic in their coverages, especially if spread them out to force the defense into certain coverages. I beg for the small "blinding speed" package to replace the current version of the two minute drill package they've shown for the past four years.

there's lots of things i'd sure as hell hope an experienced qb can do.

i still want a fast no huddle passing offense. i just don't want it now. we're not going to win with qb play. we're just not

2013 2013 2013 2013 2013

i just wish people would be open to the possibility that maybe marrone isn't FOS... maybe he just doesn't think our qb is good enough

 

[kcsu]

This isnt on the players but rather on the coaches. I question if Doug has the mental capacity to make this type of O go. Im not saying that Doug isnt smart just that his mind may not be geared for this type of O. I believe that the reason more coaches dont go with this type of up tempo style is simply that they are not comfortable with the speed it requires on their part and i put doug in that school. Guys like Kelley are rare which is why they lead the creation of new O's and styles.

 

[dollarbill44]

but i guess we all forget there is more to presnap reads then just what the qb sees. you need to make sure the oline knows who to block and the rcvrs need to run the correct routes and the Rbs need to go the right direction.. i think people forget how many times we had plays called and had break downs, speeding things up is not going to fix all of that. we had max protection issues against 3-4 man rushes that didnt work.

The bottom line is that when we played with a faster tempo last year, we moved the chains and put up points with more frequency than when tempo was not pushed at all. If you don't believe me, go back and look at the games.

 

[BlueCurtain]

That's the thing and what makes me struggle so much with the "talent" crowd. How much better talent do we expect to get, realistically? We can't control talent all that much.

Tempo is something we can make a choice on and control, and I think we'd be more successful if we strategically varied tempo.

Same thing happens on the basketball court. Birdwatching and all.

Must be a university thing.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Same thing happens on the basketball court. Birdwatching and all.

Must be a university thing.

The difference is, on one side we have a HOF coach that is likely to end his career as the 2nd winningest coach of all time in his profession, and on the other side we have a guy with a sub .500 record.

So, I'm slightly more inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to one of them and not so much the other.

 

[SoBristol]

Huh?

You can play any style quickly.

He chooses not to.

Well, right -- he chooses to play a run-first, keep it conservative, game with bigger, slower guys. You can, in theory, play up tempo and run between the tackles, but who does that?