That whole debate about managing in MLB

[PoppyHart]

Robin Ventura, with zero coaching experience and a complete lark of a selection 9 months ago:
1st place, 43-37, +59 run differential

Ozzie Guillen (who Ventura replaced), roughly 8 years managing experience and a few years as asst.
4th place, 39-42, -59 run differential

Obviously, there are mitigating factors:
NL east is better than AL central
Teams may be unequal (despite Reyes and other splashy signings)
Ventura is an established, respected former player
80 games does not a season make
etc..., etc...

But I still contend that managing baseball (or softball since that seems to be so popular here) is the most overrated position in sports. A person with a solid understanding of the game, of which there are hundreds of thousands (at least) can keep his head above water. Those with personalities to command the respect of the clubhouse (and the respect need not be earned from prior baseball experience imo) can excel.

Put Coach K, for example, in charge of the Orioles, and I think he'd be great. Put Buck Showalter in charge of Duke, and the program would crumble. (assuming Coack K is not completely ignorant of the sport.)

All you baseball defenders, fire away.

 

[donniesyracuse]

Agreed, especially in terms of game management and strategy. Perhaps, a smart manager could manage his way to two or three extra victories in a season. I do think there is something to be said for setting the tone and personality of the dugout and clubhouse, but that has more to do with whether a team is winning or losing than the manager.

 

[CaliCuse]

Robin Ventura, with zero coaching experience and a complete lark of a selection 9 months ago:
1st place, 43-37, +59 run differential

Ozzie Guillen (who Ventura replaced), roughly 8 years managing experience and a few years as asst.
4th place, 39-42, -59 run differential

Obviously, there are mitigating factors:
NL east is better than AL central
Teams may be unequal (despite Reyes and other splashy signings)
Ventura is an established, respected former player
80 games does not a season make
etc..., etc...

But I still contend that managing baseball (or softball since that seems to be so popular here) is the most overrated position in sports. A person with a solid understanding of the game, of which there are hundreds of thousands (at least) can keep his head above water. Those with personalities to command the respect of the clubhouse (and the respect need not be earned from prior baseball experience imo) can excel.

Put Coach K, for example, in charge of the Orioles, and I think he'd be great. Put Buck Showalter in charge of Duke, and the program would crumble. (assuming Coack K is not completely ignorant of the sport.)

All you baseball defenders, fire away.

I think the most difficult part of being the manager is patience with what you see on the field. I would need a muzzle and a dog at my side to keep me human. A doberman or German shepard would be useful in keeping the players from mouthing off.An owner like George Steinbrenner would make the job easier actually.Billy Martin never really got that straight. He wasn't the "boss" George was and always will be remembered as such. There may never be anyone like him.

 

[skurey]

Only thing a manager needs to do is manage the bullpen. And 100% of them are terrible at it.

 

[SWC75]

It's enough of a job that some do it better than others. And there are not "hundreds of thousands of them". But they can't reinvent the game. The title says it all- they just manage the team and, to a lesser extent, the game. There's not that many strategical moves they can make. I've throught for a while that the reason there are so many pitching changes is that that is the one area where a a manager can make a move that will impact the game and by making them, he feels that he's exerting some kind of control on the contest, which he really isn't. It's still up to the players to win the game.

 

[Knicks411]

I think the manager in baseball has the least to do with the outcome of the coaches of the major US sports. (I will not include hockey here, mainly because I don't know enough about it)

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Point taken, although one thing to consider is that even though Ventura doesn't have coaching experience, he did play in more than 2000 MLB games. Due to the number of contests, baseball players get to observe a higher number of contests with real stakes than players in other sports. I suspect that experience counts for something.

I guess the crux of my argument is that former MLB players are better equipped to be successful managers in their sport than other former players are in their sport because the former MLBers have seen more games play out.

 

[br801]

Interesting thread. I'll just add that compared to other major professional team sports, baseball games are the toughest to win (percentage-wise), in large part because starting pitching is such a critical element in the outcome of a game and there is a different starting pitcher every day. A team winning 60% of its games over the course of a season in MLB is elite. Winning 60% of your games in the NFL or NBA makes you good, but not elite. And even the very worst MLB teams usually find a way to win 40% of the time. I'm not sure what all this means exactly, but perhaps the impact of a baseball manager is somehow mitigated by the inherent structure of the sport.

 

[SWC75]

Interesting thread. I'll just add that compared to other major professional team sports, baseball games are the toughest to win (percentage-wise), in large part because starting pitching is such a critical element in the outcome of a game and there is a different starting pitcher every day. A team winning 60% of its games over the course of a season in MLB is elite. Winning 60% of your games in the NFL or NBA makes you good, but not elite. And even the very worst MLB teams usually find a way to win 40% of the time. I'm not sure what all this means exactly, but perhaps the impact of a baseball manager is somehow mitigated by the inherent structure of the sport.

Top Baseball teams have a lower winning pertcentage, (and bottom ones a higher winning percentage) because of:
1) The pitching rotation- Imagine if the Patriots could only use Tom Brady every fifth game.
2) The batting order: Imagine if Michael Jordan could only take every 9th shot for the Bulls.
3) It's a non-contact sport where you can't really play defense. Fielding isn't defesne in the sense of physically preventing the other team from trying to do what they are doing. Thus you can't force a team ot lose. Other than an inside pitch, you can't even intimidate them into performing poorly.

 

[br801]

Top Baseball teams have a lower winning pertcentage, (and bottom ones a higher winning percentage) because of:
1) The pitching rotation- Imagine if the Patriots could only use Tom Brady every fifth game.
2) The batting order: Imagine if Michael Jordan could only take every 9th shot for the Bulls.
3) It's a non-contact sport where you can't really play defense. Fielding isn't defesne in the sense of physically preventing the other team from trying to do what they are doing. Thus you can't force a team ot lose. Other than an inside pitch, you can't even intimidate them into performing poorly.

Thank you for adding those thoughts, SWC75. Point 2 is critically important as well, and your analogy is great. In terms of point 3, one could almost consider the pitcher's role to be the first line of defense (with fielders being the second line), in that pitchers are trying to prevent the offense from producing the base runners that are obviously required to score runs.

 

[SWC75]

Thank you for adding those thoughts, SWC75. Point 2 is critically important as well, and your analogy is great. In terms of point 3, one could almost consider the pitcher's role to be the first line of defense (with fielders being the second line), in that pitchers are trying to prevent the offense from producing the base runners that are obviously required to score runs.

But they can't tackle them, block them, check the into the boards and there is no full-court press.