The Big East and Eastern Football

[FloridaCuse]

It took 3 schools Georgetown, St John's, and Villanova.

I thought it only took one more vote cause they had 5 & needed 6. For whatever reason some thought Gtown would provide the 6th vote. After the lacrosse final four this weekend I'll go find it on that 30 for 30 doc.

 

[baggerbob]

I thought it only took one more vote cause they had 5 & needed 6. For whatever reason some thought Gtown would provide the 6th vote. After the lacrosse final four this weekend I'll go find it on that 30 for 30 doc.

They had those 3 votes against which was enough to kill it. The vote was 5-3, and those 3 schools were what killed The Big East,although it took a few years.

 

[FloridaCuse]

They had those 3 votes against which was enough to kill it. The vote was 5-3, and those 3 schools were what killed The Big East,although it took a few years.

Agree. I'm just saying that some particularly blame Georgetown for its NO vote and effectively killing the Big East.

 

[SU68]

Here's the link.

 

[oldpinepoint]

Syracuse administration especially buzz and Jake we’re not forward looking at all. Especially towards the late 90’s between conferences and facilities, we were set back a decade. Then we followed up that with two of the worst hires ever between cantor and gross. Freaking disaster

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Syracuse administration especially buzz and Jake we’re not forward looking at all. Especially towards the late 90’s between conferences and facilities, we were set back a decade. Then we followed up that with two of the worst hires ever between cantor and gross. Freaking disaster

Jake had a list of facilities improvements that needed to be done, Buzz wouldn't give him the money.

Didn't help matters that due to SU's antiquated accounting practices, the Athletic Dept couldn't keep any of the Bowl money it earned from 1987-late 90s. That money went into the University General Fund.

 

[FloridaCuse]

Here's the link.

Thanks but that's not the video I'm referring to. I'm referring to the ESPN 30 for 30 documentary "Requiem for the Big East" from 2014. It's 1 hour 44 minutes long I believe and available on ESPN+. ESPN oftens replays it on one of its networks during March.

 

[FloridaCuse]

Thanks but that's not the video I'm referring to. I'm referring to the ESPN 30 for 30 documentary "Requiem for the Big East" from 2014. It's 1 hour 44 minutes long I believe and available on ESPN+. ESPN oftens replays in on one of its networks during March.

Here's a 1 minute 20 second clip that's on YouTube about the Syracuse-Georgetown and JB and Big JT rivalry:

 

[Hoo's That]

Eastern Indy Football was a different animal back then.

The NCAA controlled all the TV contracts, and everyone got the same sized slice of the pie.

It wasn't until the Supreme Court ruled in the 90's that Conferences and Teams could negotiate their own TV deals, that conference membership became popular.

The 2 cases were decided in 1984, Georgia Athletic Association v. NCAA and Board of Regents of the University of Oklahoma v. NCAA..

 

[longtimefan]

That was way too late we as it turned out.
Jake was a wonderful man. Very loyal, but not someone looking into the future.
The previous AD Lou Andreas was usually ahead of things, he would have made the move.

Nope. Les Dye preceded Jake Crouthamel, and Lew Andreas retired in 1964.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Big East FB was very good on the field and had teams in major markets when that actually mattered. That still didn't keep Miami and VA Tech from leaving for the lessor ACC. Penn State would have eventually left. Those down years in the early 2000s would have been like FSU lately in the ACC. That would have been the excuse to leave for the B1G

 

[OburgOrange]

Wasn’t SU approached by the B1G at one point? Or am I misremembering this? OrangeXtreme ?

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Wasn’t SU approached by the B1G at one point? Or am I misremembering this? OrangeXtreme ?

IIRC, the Big Ten never approached Syracuse. We might have called them a few times, but they never picked up.

The old Metro Conference was considering a massing expansion by combining the best Eastern and Southern Indys. It would have put SU, BC, Pitt and WV in the same conference as Cinci, Louisville, Memphis, FSU, South Carolina, etc..

That plan fell apart when SoCar accepted an SEC invite and FSU joined the ACC.

The BE even tried to get the ACC to take SU, BC, and Pitt as "Football Only" members, but the ACC doesn't do "one sport members".

The last option was inviting Miami as a full member, and letting Rutgers, Temple, WV, and VT play as football onlies.

 

[Cusefan95]

I haven't seen it in awhile but my recollection is that the ESPN 30 For 30 documentary "Requiem for the Big East" (2014) says it was Georgetown who refused to vote to add Penn St. and effectively blackballed the move. The doc either implies it or comes out and says it. [It's available on ESPN+. A few clips are on YouTube.]

John Thompson literally came out and said it, because the football school problems weren’t his problems.

To anyone who paid attention, he came off looking terrible in that documentary. On one hand he was whining that he thought “we were all in this together!”, then minutes later stating football problems weren’t his. Who an incredibly selfish clown lacking any self-awareness…

 

[Cusefan95]

But who is to say the B1G could have offered more money with a NE/Miami conference. Maybe we add Florida State also And then Clemson starts wondering if it is better to be with some football schools in the NE, rather than basketball schools in the SE.

I’ll say it. The SEC and Big 10 are getting the most money because they are almost all state schools with huge alumni bases and lots of non-graduate fans in state. You can try to staple something together from Big East and ACC schools - but can’t come up with any formula that approaches those conferences. Pitt is not Penn State, BC barely registers in Mass, VT and Virginia aren’t Michigan/Michigan State…those two conferences were going to win in the end. Penn State joining Big East in the 80s might have pushed off them leaving for the Big 10 - but it was inevitably going to happen.

 

[Cusefan95]

Jake had a list of facilities improvements that needed to be done, Buzz wouldn't give him the money.

Didn't help matters that due to SU's antiquated accounting practices, the Athletic Dept couldn't keep any of the Bowl money it earned from 1987-late 90s. That money went into the University General Fund.

In business, if you ask for critical things and don’t get it - you either leave or you are a joint owner of that decision. I refuse to let Jake (or Coach P) off the hook for staying after being told no by Buzz repeatedly. Buzz was an absolute disaster for Syracuse athletics - but Jake (& Coach P since it badly impacted football) are co-owners of Buzz’s decisions because they stayed.

Loyalty isn’t always a character strength; sometimes it’s a flaw. Jake and Coach P demonstrate that.

 

[baggerbob]

Interesting, really. If you look at it... we really did not fit the Big East either. But which group do we really fit better with as of 1980-1981:

(A) St. Johns, Georgetown, Seton Hall, Providence, UConn, Villanova
(B) Penn State, Pitt, Rutgers, BC, Temple, West Virginia

And we chose (A). Add Miami and Syracuse to (B) and we have a conference that would have competed with every conference.

Which is what we should have done , and Florida St, Louisville, and Cincinnati were in the Metro conference, along with Memphis. Those ten teams could have Dominated Football and Basketball for a long time.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Which is what we should have done , and Florida St, Louisville, and Cincinnati were in the Metro conference, along with Memphis. Those ten teams could have Dominated Football and Basketball for a long time.

The Big East and Big 12 were winning all the titles and the B1G and SEC still raided those conferences.

Between Ohio State winning outright in 1968 and 2002, the B1G had ONE shared title in 33 seasons. They didn't have another title until 2014 and the next after that was 2023. It isn't on field success.

Between winning in 1980 and again in 1996, the SEC had ONE title in 15 seasons. Really the SEC didn't take off until 2006. Since then they have dominated but when all this expansion started they were not.

 

[TexanMark]

The Big East ruined the Big East.

Fifteen other schools couldn't figure out how to keep the conference alive but it is all one school's fault ??

The football schools had a "get out of jail free card" to split but were afraid to use it.

The old Big East was never going to make it long term in today's TV/realignment climate.

The three schools (best guess-->Georgetown, Nova and SJU) set everything in motion. If Penn State joined...who knows how things would have played out.

Notre Dame has always said FB will remain Indy...it has continued until now. ND isn't the main reason the BE splintered.

 

[TexanMark]

The football schools should have split when the Catholic schools turned down the contract. They could have added Louisville and Cincinnati with no problem and probably Memphis, which would still have been a good basketball conference.
And I believe Notre Dame would have liked an arrangement with that league.

Probably could have convinced Maryland too

 

[sabach]

Georgetown, St Johns and Nova were the three NO votes.

Which is why John Thompson and Lou Carnesecca complaining about SU in "Requiem" is a bunch of crap. Their schools basketball only short sighted mentality kept Penn State out of the BE and started the dominoes falling that eventually killed the conference. Though the BE would probably never have survived anyway. Football is too big.

 

[hoopsupstate]

Buzz had no clue about athletics and what it took to run an athletic department. He put us ten years behind with his ignorant leadership.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Which is why John Thompson and Lou Carnesecca complaining about SU in "Requiem" is a bunch of crap. Their schools basketball only short sighted mentality kept Penn State out of the BE and started the dominoes falling that eventually killed the conference. Though the BE would probably never have survived anyway. Football is too big.

Even if PSU got the invite...

The basketball schools still outnumbered the football schools 6-3. The BE was never going into the football business on Gavitt's watch.

 

[sabach]

Even if PSU got the invite...

The basketball schools still outnumbered the football schools 6-3. The BE was never going into the football business on Gavitt's watch.

I know. The old BE was amazing for the time it was. But there was never a sustainable way to mesh basketball only schools with schools trying to fund big time football.

My beef was Thompson and Carnesecca acting like we were Judas. We had football to take care of and they didn't. We had no choice. Even JB understood that even if he didn't like it.

 

[HtownOrange]

Agree 100% -- that was the fracture that led to the demise of the classic Big East. Didn't happen overnight, but the die was cast.

First, Penn State pivoted to the B1G.

Then, the Big East responded by bloating with a large group of additional programs, some of which weren't geographically contiguous / some of which weren't "peer" programs of some of the existing teams.

Then, in about 10 years, a bunch of those newbies split off and hopped to greener pastures, inducing some traditional Big East programs following suit.

Nobody loathes Penn State more than I do, but I wonder how much of conference realignment would have been different if we'd just added Penn State, which would have "anchored" our football conference and centered things around northeast football.

Respectfully, PSU wanted a very heavily favored deal wherein all sports shared monies EXCEPT football. Translation: Syracuse hoops and lacrosse would carry PSU hoops and lacrosse but PSU football would not return the favor. JoePa was a piece of work. He couldn’t have his way so he begged to join the B1G and got the same deal he could have had with the eastern schools had he not been such a jerk.

I do agree that had things worked out the eastern schools could have had a respectable conference. Miami and FSU we’re there for the taking until the ACC but nobody had vision. (I claim a pass as I was a teenager for most of the 80s).