The challenge that is this year

Millhouse

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Either way that is on the coaches ... my point is you can change the staff and improve things. That being said I love Tony White ... not sold on Gilbert.
You were talking about the same roster improving at lsu.

I agree that coaches need to go if they don't recruit but for me it's not about the system
 

orangecuse

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Wait, you think we should be recruiting like A&M, LSU and Alabama?

Honestly, is that what you got from his post? I think it's quite obvious (mentioning Monroe and how SU fans love his recruiting prowess, etc.) that's not what he is saying at all, but rather implying how staff/coaches, etc. play a critical role in recruiting, which then translates 100% to success or lack thereof (in recruiting failures) on the field. The A&M reference is simply an example as to how true freshmen (in a much tougher conference than the ACC) can and do get on the field. It kind of makes Dino's plethora of excuses kind of fall on deaf ears for me, and likely many other fans too. Talent typically always trumps class standing IMO.
 
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TheCusian

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Honestly, is that what you got from his post? I think it's quite obvious (mentioning Monroe and how SU fans love his recruiting prowess, etc.) that's not what he is saying at all, but rather implying how staff/coaches, etc. play a critical role in recruiting, which then translates 100% to success or lack thereof (in recruiting failures) on the field. The A&M reference is simply an example as to how true freshmen (in a much tougher conference than the ACC) can and do get on the field. It kind of makes Dino's plethora of excuses kind of fall on deaf ears for me, and likely many other fans too. Talent typically always trumps class standing IMO.

I'm not sure what his point was.

To your point - Trill and Cisco both were recruited by Monroe/Babers, played early and are about to be drafted. Iffy and G. Williams are both on similar trajectories. Tucker is playing as a freshman, looks like a 3 year starter at RB.

Obviously, there have been recruiting failures (QB and OL, mostly). My point, is that Syracuse is more Wake Forest than A&M - we will be in better shape if we can recruit and develop talent, sprinkle in a Cisco and a Tucker from time to time. The new transfer rules probably help some, but we'll see.
 

wfschrec

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You were talking about the same roster improving at lsu.

I agree that coaches need to go if they don't recruit but for me it's not about the system

Yes with respect to the fact that the COACHING CHANGE mattered. Again my original point whether you cite scheme changes or recruiting it goes back to coaching. And mediocre lineups with a good scheme can beat more talented teams. Bring in a hot shot recruiter to bolster the roster or bring in an offensive guru either way people who say you can't bring in a guy and turn things around in a hurry is disingenuous.
 

wfschrec

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Wait, you think we should be recruiting like A&M, LSU and Alabama?

That isn't what I said now was it ... A&M had to play 19 frosh due to injuries and attrition and had a decent system and remained competitive in spite of it. Didn't hear fluff press conferences or a bunch of other excuses. A lot of those kids weren't ready and received trial by fire ... not cracks about seeing padded defenses in a loss or not fumbling.
 

wfschrec

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Honestly, is that what you got from his post? I think it's quite obvious (mentioning Monroe and how SU fans love his recruiting prowess, etc.) that's not what he is saying at all, but rather implying how staff/coaches, etc. play a critical role in recruiting, which then translates 100% to success or lack thereof (in recruiting failures) on the field. The A&M reference is simply an example as to how true freshmen (in a much tougher conference than the ACC) can and do get on the field. It kind of makes Dino's plethora of excuses kind of fall on deaf ears for me, and likely many other fans too. Talent typically always trumps class standing IMO.

Thank you ... didn't think it was that hard to follow ... boy was I wrong.
 

wfschrec

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I'm not sure what his point was.

To your point - Trill and Cisco both were recruited by Monroe/Babers, played early and are about to be drafted. Iffy and G. Williams are both on similar trajectories. Tucker is playing as a freshman, looks like a 3 year starter at RB.

Obviously, there have been recruiting failures (QB and OL, mostly). My point, is that Syracuse is more Wake Forest than A&M - we will be in better shape if we can recruit and develop talent, sprinkle in a Cisco and a Tucker from time to time. The new transfer rules probably help some, but we'll see.

Tucker is playing because of an injury and two opt outs ... and while I love him as a back before we anoint him a 3 year starter lets see how it goes ... I remember the same talk when Fredricks ran for 600 yards in his first season.

My point is we aren't even recruiting or scheming at a Wake level ... it shows on the field.
 

TheCusian

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Tucker is playing because of an injury and two opt outs ... and while I love him as a back before we anoint him a 3 year starter lets see how it goes ... I remember the same talk when Fredricks ran for 600 yards in his first season.

My point is we aren't even recruiting or scheming at a Wake level ... it shows on the field.

I’m not so sure this is true either. I think we’re on par with Wake talent and scheme but have had more OL injuries and QB injuries. We’ve beat them enough that I’m confident we’re peers.
 

TheCusian

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That isn't what I said now was it ... A&M had to play 19 frosh due to injuries and attrition and had a decent system and remained competitive in spite of it. Didn't hear fluff press conferences or a bunch of other excuses. A lot of those kids weren't ready and received trial by fire ... not cracks about seeing padded defenses in a loss or not fumbling.

Right. That’s my point. They have better talent on their 2-deep due to all the advantages of being an SEC school in a talent rich area. They also can afford better coaching staffs. We’ll never be that.
 

wfschrec

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Right. That’s my point. They have better talent on their 2-deep due to all the advantages of being an SEC school in a talent rich area. They also can afford better coaching staffs. We’ll never be that.

I never said we would ... you said I said we need to recruit like A&M. I never said that ... once again they took freshman and put them on the field and remained competitive due to scheme period ... and the ACC will never be the SEC. Don't need to spend the same on coaches. My point is simple .. playing freshman isn't a viable excuse ... other schools do it successfully. Why is it so hard to grasp? Our freshman need to be on par with our peers .. not A&M .. newsflash they aren't.
 

wfschrec

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I’m not so sure this is true either. I think we’re on par with Wake talent and scheme but have had more OL injuries and QB injuries. We’ve beat them enough that I’m confident we’re peers.

So we have the same quality OL? Has Dino recruited a WR like Surratt? How about two QBs the caliber of Hartman or Newman? Or a DL as good as Basham? Hell I'd love to have Beal-Smith or Walker in our backfield. We are not on par ... sorry to say.
 

TheCusian

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I never said we would ... you said I said we need to recruit like A&M. I never said that ... once again they took freshman and put them on the field and remained competitive due to scheme period ... and the ACC will never be the SEC. Don't need to spend the same on coaches. My point is simple .. playing freshman isn't a viable excuse ... other schools do it successfully. Why is it so hard to grasp? Our freshman need to be on par with our peers .. not A&M .. newsflash they aren't.

I don’t think they remained competitive due to scheme period. I think their freshman are more talented and more ready out of the gate. Our freshman our on par with Wake and NC State and BC and Pitt - we’re just playing more of them due to opt outs and injuries. Add up enough and we’re done. That and the failure to recruit a QB who should be a sophomore or junior playing behind DeVito.
 

TheCusian

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So we have the same quality OL? Has Dino recruited a WR like Surratt? How about two QBs the caliber of Hartman or Newman? Or a DL as good as Basham? Hell I'd love to have Beal-Smith or Walker in our backfield. We are not on par ... sorry to say.

I don’t know how our OL stack up, most of them are injured. I like DeVito better than Hartman if our OL wasn’t the walking dead. We’ve had Amba and Harris is/was leading the ACC in receiving yards. RB is a good point - but hard to evaluate due to the OL. I like Tucker, Neal was fine.
 

AAM62

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ED was definitely a big reason to its success but is was partly due to the offense scheme is all.
Yup, our red zone offense has been putrid for a long time and ED was responsible for marked improvement in the money zone in 2018
 

wfschrec

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I don’t know how our OL stack up, most of them are injured. I like DeVito better than Hartman if our OL wasn’t the walking dead. We’ve had Amba and Harris is/was leading the ACC in receiving yards. RB is a good point - but hard to evaluate due to the OL. I like Tucker, Neal was fine.

I like Tucker too not saying he won't be amazing but understand I said two QBs not 1 ... look at the numbers the two Wake QBs have vs Devito + Culpepper ... poor Rex couldn't hit water falling out of a boat. This goes to recruiting and the depth argument. Amba was a transfer not a recruit putting in 4 years here and if you compare Harris vs Surratt it isn't close. If Surratt wasn't hurt I can't even imagine what WF would have done to us. Lets just look at one interesting stat:

Baber vs WF 2-3
Shafer vs WF 3-0

Lets talk about that OL ... why has Qadir White not seen the field? We all know the answer ... 4 star who has weight issues ... all under the watchful eyes of our staff ... we have 5 upperclassmen (JR/SRs) on the OL ... one a former FB ... so really 4 ... do I need to explain the issue there or is that self explanatory?
 

wfschrec

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I don’t think they remained competitive due to scheme period. I think their freshman are more talented and more ready out of the gate. Our freshman our on par with Wake and NC State and BC and Pitt - we’re just playing more of them due to opt outs and injuries. Add up enough and we’re done. That and the failure to recruit a QB who should be a sophomore or junior playing behind DeVito.

Hartman as a pure frosh had a 125 rating ... in limited action threw for 1984 yards and 16 TDs in 9 games before ending his season with an injury ... you mean to tell me our recruiting is on par? He loses his job to Newman last year then closes it out with decent numbers after Newman was hurt and is off to a great start this year.
 

TheCusian

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Hartman as a pure frosh had a 125 rating ... in limited action threw for 1984 yards and 16 TDs in 9 games before ending his season with an injury ... you mean to tell me our recruiting is on par? He loses his job to Newman last year then closes it out with decent numbers after Newman was hurt and is off to a great start this year.

Tommy DeVito 2019Sam Hartman 2018
Comp %63.2%55.3%
TD1916
INT58
QB Rating137.68125.24
Yards per Att76.8

That's with key injuries to our OL. I've already said that Dino is on the hook for what's behind TD.

I think the OL recruiting is on par with Wake. I think our injuries are abnormal. It also creates a cascading effect with playing guys who aren't ready yet messing up the depth chart, burning shirts/losing years.

Transfers count lol. They choose to play for the HC/school just like freshman. Surratt is very good. Harris is simply good.

And Shafer's record vs Wake is not indicative of anything at all
 

wfschrec

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Tommy DeVito 2019Sam Hartman 2018
Comp %63.2%55.3%
TD1916
INT58
QB Rating137.68125.24
Yards per Att76.8

That's with key injuries to our OL. I've already said that Dino is on the hook for what's behind TD.

I think the OL recruiting is on par with Wake. I think our injuries are abnormal. It also creates a cascading effect with playing guys who aren't ready yet messing up the depth chart, burning shirts/losing years.

Transfers count lol. They choose to play for the HC/school just like freshman. Surratt is very good. Harris is simply good.

And Shafer's record vs Wake is not indicative of anything at all

um that is Devito as a R-SO vs Hartman as a true frosh .., seriously? Did you go back and see how many true frosh participated in games for Wake ... 2 of their top 3 receivers this season are frosh ... just stop.
 

TheCusian

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um that is Devito as a R-SO vs Hartman as a true frosh .., seriously? Did you go back and see how many true frosh participated in games for Wake ... 2 of their top 3 receivers this season are frosh ... just stop.

First year starting vs first year starting is as good as you’re going to get given their injuries.

Our 2nd best WR last year was a soph and our 2nd best WR this year is a soph.

Unless you have more proof, there’s not a whole lot of reason to state definitively that Wake is out recruiting us year to year. They are peers, we’ve had worse luck, bigger wins, and a 10 win season. They’ve been more consistent and have avoided the lows we’ve had. They’ve also done their HC a favor by playing more cupcakes early in their respective tenures. Duke, Wake, Syracuse, Pitt, BC are all close enough in the talent pool to be peers.
 

wfschrec

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First year starting vs first year starting is as good as you’re going to get given their injuries.

Our 2nd best WR last year was a soph and our 2nd best WR this year is a soph.

Unless you have more proof, there’s not a whole lot of reason to state definitively that Wake is out recruiting us year to year. They are peers, we’ve had worse luck, bigger wins, and a 10 win season. They’ve been more consistent and have avoided the lows we’ve had. They’ve also done their HC a favor by playing more cupcakes early in their respective tenures. Duke, Wake, Syracuse, Pitt, BC are all close enough in the talent pool to be peers.

oh I’m sorry didn’t realize Wagner, UConn and WMU were juggernauts during our 10 win season .. and your QB justification is complete crap. 3 years in the system vs true frosh is a big difference ... do you believe what you say or repeatedly throw crap against the wall to see what sticks?

Wake is 27-17 since 2017 ... we are 20-24 the on field product is the proof and watching us struggle with their mesh concept further reinforces the fact that we can’t game plan worth a damn either.

Stop moving goal posts and comparing apples to oranges.
 

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