The Coach's Show

[SWC75]

Because the bigger punt block team would just flatten them to the ground on the snap. Same reason punt block teams aren't solely made up DB's and LB's

Would they? It's not a goal line stand. Players on both teams want to get around eachother to make plays.

 

[iommi]

All of this talk about our punter out-kicking his coverage is a really good laugh. When field position dictates, the punter's objection is to kick it as deep as possible. The one exception is when you're are trying to pin a team inside the 10. Anyone who says otherwise, is without a clue. The fact is our punt coverage was pathetic and that's on the special teams coach and the players whose job it is to cover kicks. Who is our special teams coach again? Oh, wait. I remember. Oh Lord

 

[ImperialOrange]

Would they? It's not a goal line stand. Players on both teams want to get around eachother to make plays.

Aside from the gunners, the punt return players cannot head down field until the ball leaves the kickers foot or you get an illegal man downfield penalty.

Should be 2-3 seconds until the ball leaves the kickers foot so in that time our 200-230 lb players would have 260 lb+ guys firing off the ball at them. They have to at least try and block or the opponents will just block the kick. So yeah, a 200lb db standing still while someone running at them and outweighing them by 50+ lbs would get flattened.

I played up back on punt returns a bit in HS. It's ugly if one of those big guys goes unblocked, you just try and slow them down and redirect them but you're going to get hit.

 

[ImperialOrange]

All of this talk about our punter out-kicking his coverage is a really good laugh. When field position dictates, the punter's objection is to kick it as deep as possible. The one exception is when you're are trying to pin a team inside the 10. Anyone who says otherwise, is without a clue. The fact is our punt coverage was pathetic and that's on the special teams coach and the players whose job it is to cover kicks. Who is our special teams coach again? Oh, wait. I remember. Oh Lord

Have you ever played on special teams coverage at any level of football? Not to be a jerk, but it's not as easy to "just tackle" someone when they are moving the opposite direction at full speed.

 

[dollarbill44]

Aside from the gunners, the punt return players cannot head down field until the ball leaves the kickers foot or you get an illegal man downfield penalty.

Should be 2-3 seconds until the ball leaves the kickers foot so in that time our 200-230 lb players would have 260 lb+ guys firing off the ball at them. They have to at least try and block or the opponents will just block the kick. So yeah, a 200lb db standing still while someone running at them and outweighing them by 50+ lbs would get flattened.

I played up back on punt returns a bit in HS. It's ugly if one of those big guys goes unblocked, you just try and slow them down and redirect them but you're going to get hit.

I'm not worried about a 260 lb DL blocking a punt. Typically, the punt blocks come from a DB or LB. A 230lb LB should be able to slow down anyone lined up across from him for at least a split second (obviously not if he's standing still in your example, which no one should be still at any point in a play), which is enough to keep him off the punter.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Have you ever played on special teams coverage at any level of football? Not to be a jerk, but it's not as easy to "just tackle" someone when they are moving the opposite direction at full speed.

I played on specials. It's harder than just tackle, but it's not rocket science either.

 

[ImperialOrange]

I'm not worried about a 260 lb DL blocking a punt. Typically, the punt blocks come from a DB or LB. A 230lb LB should be able to slow down anyone lined up across from him for at least a split second (obviously not if he's standing still in your example, which no one should be still at any point in a play), which is enough to keep him off the punter.

Right but he would be engaged by the rusher and knocked backwards which eliminates any potential gains made by him being able to run faster once disengaged.

 

[dollarbill44]

Right but he would be engaged by the rusher and knocked backwards which eliminates any potential gains made by him being able to run faster once disengaged.

He would still get down the field faster than on OL guy that had to engage the rusher.

 

[ImperialOrange]

I played on specials. It's harder than just tackle, but it's not rocket science either.

Right but you also know the difference between trying to tackle someone catching the ball when you're 5 yards out vs them being 15 yards out.

Ideally the punter would have a second of hang time for every 10 yards the ball travels in the air. Agreed?

 

[ImperialOrange]

He would still get down the field faster than on OL guy that had to engage the rusher.

It'd be interesting to see and compare but if it was adventageous wouldn't most coaches have figured out as much by now? The rush would keep pushing them back until the ball leaves the kickers foot. At that point the rusher has to punch and disengage but can still stand there and block them whichever direction they wanted.

 

[iommi]

Have you ever played on special teams coverage at any level of football? Not to be a jerk, but it's not as easy to "just tackle" someone when they are moving the opposite direction at full speed.

No, I have not. Other teams cover kicks well. Why can't Syracuse? Year in and year out Va Tech has exceptional special teams; if Beamer can coach his guys...

 

[ImperialOrange]

No, I have not. Other teams cover kicks well. Why can't Syracuse? Year in and year out Va Tech has exceptional special teams; if Beamer can coach his guys...

Syracuse used to cover kicks well. Why can't we now? I keep telling myself that we are closing the talent gap on teams like Va Tech or 90s Syracuse but maybe we're not as close as I'd like to think.

I don't have answers but hopefully the coaches do. I can just see the reasoning behind "out kicking your coverage" vs thinking of it as a cop out. If our punter gets more hang time, our coverage has more time to cover ground. If our coverage covers ground quicker, the punter can then kick it further. Chicken or the egg type debate. Bottom line, and we all agree, is that it needs to improve.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Ideally the punter would have a second of hang time for every 10 yards the ball travels in the air. Agreed?

I'm not sure that's quite right, actually. Let's assume for convenience sake (though it probably isn't that far off) that every player on your coverage team can cover 40 yards in 5 seconds. The punter will take the snap about 10 yards behind the line of scrimmage, maybe kick it 8 yards from the line of scrimmage, and needs about 2 seconds to get it off.

I suck at math, but if they aren't jammed the gunners should be nearly 20 yards down field by the time the punt is off, and only need 20 more to go. If that punt travels 48 yards (40 yard goal plus the 8 yards behind the line) and takes one second for every 10 yards of distance, the gunners have 5 seconds to go 20 yards. Let's say it takes them 3. They have 2 whole seconds to hang out right next to the punt returner. The rest of the team back on the line will have 5 seconds to go 40 yards, which is right what we estimated it would take them to run. That means on most punts all 10 of your guys are standing right by the punt returner when he catches it. It would seem to me that the punter could boom it 68 yards and the gunner would still have all kinds of time to get there, even if they get blocked a little bit. We know none of this is true.

This is a really long way of saying that I think one second for every ten yards of punt is a nice simple saying, but probably not how it really works. I'd love some real data to prove me wrong though.

 

[dollarbill44]

It'd be interesting to see and compare but if it was adventageous wouldn't most coaches have figured out as much by now? The rush would keep pushing them back until the ball leaves the kickers foot. At that point the rusher has to punch and disengage but can still stand there and block them whichever direction they wanted.

A lot of coaches have figured that out (VaTech, Rutgers, etc). Even SU did it as little as two years ago, as I believe Hogue and Smith were both on the punt team. We definitely did it under Coach P. It's not revolutionary thinking.

 

[PhatOrange]

Did anyone get the #'s or names of the kids who are forming our wall in front of the punter? someone mentioned big slow guys. I'd agree with the suggestion of maybe putting 3 good athletic blockers back there. Guys who can then cover or help out in the event a PR is busting one. Could go with players like Lemon, Stevens or Vaughn/Coker/Vigille, players like that.

 

[RMH44]

Did anyone get the #'s or names of the kids who are forming our wall in front of the punter? someone mentioned big slow guys. I'd agree with the suggestion of maybe putting 3 good athletic blockers back there. Guys who can then cover or help out in the event a PR is busting one. Could go with players like Lemon, Stevens or Vaughn/Coker/Vigille, players like that.

Chibane was one of the three. He was making all the blocking calls.

 

[javadoc]

Right but you also know the difference between trying to tackle someone catching the ball when you're 5 yards out vs them being 15 yards out.

It's as simple as a playmaker having the ball "out in space". If there are one or two guys on top of him ready to tackle when he catches it, play is dead. If he is able to get a running start before anyone is on him, he's essentially a playmaker with the ball in space.

 

[SUalldway]

Not sure why you are reacting that way. The kickers out-kicked the coverage and the gunners got double teamed. They worked on fixing it for two days this week. What's wrong with that?

This "out kicked the coverage" excuse is total BS. Stay in your lanes and make the damn tackle.

 

[ImperialOrange]

This is a really long way of saying that I think one second for every ten yards of punt is a nice simple saying, but probably not how it really works. I'd love some real data to prove me wrong though.

I'm sure there's an ideal formula and equally as sure that I dont have it. Since you said you aren't the greatest at math you can probably look at this and get about as much from it as I do. Save time and just check out the final paragraph.
http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/physics-of-football2.htm

Average hang time for NFL punt's is 4.6 seconds and ~50-55 yards. We don't have NFL caliber gunners so hang time should be added and length shortened accordingly to the ability of our coverage team or our punter should be kicking for the sideline just out of bounds everytime.

 

[kcsu]

We had multiple problems on the punt coverage but one that has not been mentioned is that both punts were driven deep and to the middle of the field which makes it much tougher to cover. A good punter will attempt to hit between the hash and sideline providing less space to cover and using the sideline as an extra defender.

 

[SWC75]

Did anyone get the #'s or names of the kids who are forming our wall in front of the punter? someone mentioned big slow guys. I'd agree with the suggestion of maybe putting 3 good athletic blockers back there. Guys who can then cover or help out in the event a PR is busting one. Could go with players like Lemon, Stevens or Vaughn/Coker/Vigille, players like that.

I thought the concept was that the three guys in front of the putner had punt protection as their main job while the guys who were supposed to get downfield were the ones up front. As to the three guys, they have about 8-10 ayrds between themselves and the line fo scrimmage and the ball is already in the kicker's hands by then, (at least). Those guys really just need to get in the way long enough for the kick to come off.

 

[rrlbees]

Not sure why you are reacting that way. The kickers out-kicked the coverage and the gunners got double teamed. They worked on fixing it for two days this week. What's wrong with that?

If punters are being told they kick it too far and it should be 38-40 yards every time, we wasted a scholarship getting a kid that can boom punts.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2