SWC75
Bored Historian
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(This is an update of a post I did four years ago)
I decided to follow-up on my idea about scoring the Decathlon. Here is the points system used by the decathlon at the present time, according to Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decathlon#Points_system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decathlon_scoring_tables
These numbers were obviously put together by experts in each sport with the idea that an equal performance in each event should result in an equal number of points. The number should represent some kind of “par” for that event. But in looking at that I, as an average fan, have no idea what the numbers mean.
The 2004 Decathlon champion, Roman Sebrle of the Czech Republic had the following numbers in each event:
100m 10.85 seconds Points: 894
LJ 7.84 meters Points: 1020
SP 16.6 meters Points: 873
HJ 2.12 meters Points: 915
400M 48.36 seconds Points: 892
110H 14.05 seconds Points: 968
DISC 48.72 meters Points: 844
PV 5.00 meters Points: 910
JAV 70.52 meters Points: 897
1500M 4:40.1 seconds Points: 680
He wound up with 8893 points. I can’t look at the above results and figure out what the formulas mean or what 8893 points really represents. My idea was to divide the decathlete’s result by the existing world record, (entering the meet), if it’s a distance, (and the world’s record would be the larger number), or divide the world’s record by the decathlete’s performance if it’s a timed event, (and the world’s record would be the smaller number). Take each division out to three spots, remove the decimal point and there’s your number of points. Let’s look at Sebrle’s numbers under this system:
100m 10.85 seconds WR: 9.78 Points: 901
LJ 7.84 meters WR: 8.95 Points: 876
SP 16.6 meters WR: 23.12 Points: 708
HJ 2.12 meters WR: 2.45 Points: 865
400M 48.36 seconds WR: 43.18 Points: 893
110H 14.05 seconds WR: 12.91 Points: 919
DISC 48.72 meters WR: 74.08 Points: 658
PV 5.00 meters WR: 6.14 Points: 814
JAV 70.52 meters WR: 98.48 Points: 716
1500M 4:40.1 seconds WR: 3:26.0 Points: 735
His total under this system is 8085 points. He was 90.1% as good as the world record in the 100 meters, 87.6% as good as the record in the long jump and so on. On the average, he was 80.85% as good as the world record in each event. He was 80.85% as good as the best specialist in each field.
I looked at each of the 21 Olympic Decathlon Champions under my system and the current system, (the current tables: the tables have changed over the years so you will see different numbers for past champions). It’s possible that some of them might not have won under my system but I stuck with them, rather than rating their pursuers. (Per David Wallechinsky’s “Complete Book of the Summer Olympics”, some past winners would not have been the winners under the current tables.) For brevity, I’m just showing the final totals. The event is not an ancient event: it was never held prior to the fifth of the modern games.
1912 Jim Thorpe, USA: Present system: 6564 points / My system: 8681 points
1920 Helge Leveland, NOR: Present system: 6803 points / My system: 8141 points
1924 Harold Osborn, USA: Present system: 6476 points / My system: 8402 points
1928 Paavo Yrjola, FIN: Present system: 6607 points / My system: 8545 points
1932 James Bausch USA: Present system: 6735 points / My system: 8610 points
1936 Glenn Morris USA: Present system: 7254 points / My system: 8502 points
1948 Bob Mathias USA: Present system: 6628 points / My system: 7990 points
1952 Bob Mathias USA: Present system: 7580 points / My system: 8547 points
1956 Milt Campbell USA: Present system: 7565 points / My system: 8349 points
1960 Rafer Johnson USA: Present system: 7901 points / My system: 8435 points
1964 Willie Holdorf, GER: Present system: 7726 points / My system: 8036 points
1968 Bill Toomey, USA: Present system: 8158 points / My system: 8042 points
1972 Mykola Avilov, USSR: Present system: 8466 points / My system: 8143 points
1976 Bruce Jenner USA: Present system: 8634 points / My system: 8213 points
1980 Daley Thompson GBR: Present system: 8522 points / My system: 8047 points
1984 Daley Thompson GBR: Present system: 8847 points / My system: 8132 points
1988 Christian Schenk GDR: Present system: 8488 points / My system: 7978 points
1992 Robert Zmelick CZE: Present system: 8611 points / My system: 7967 points
1996 Dan O’Brien USA: Present system: 8824 points / My system: 8038 points
2000 Erki Nool, EST: Present system: 8641 points / My system: 7905 points
2004 Roman Sebrle CZE: Present system: 8893 points / My system: 8085 points
Roman Sebrle ran faster, (with one interesting exception), jumped higher and threw things farther than Jim Thorpe:
100m Sebrle 10.85 seconds Thorpe 11.2 seconds
LJ Sebrle 7.84 meters Thorpe 6.79 meters
SP Sebrle 16.6 meters Thorpe 12.89 meters
HJ Sebrle 2.12 meters Thorpe 1.87 meters
400M Sebrle 48.36 seconds Thorpe 52.2 seconds
110H Sebrle 14.05 seconds Thorpe 15.6 seconds
DISC Sebrle 48.72 meters Thorpe 36.98 meters
PV Sebrle 5.00 meters Thorpe 3.25 meters
JAV Sebrle 70.52 meters Thorpe 45.70 meters
1500M Sebrle 4:40.1 seconds Thorpe 4:40.1 seconds
It’s thus appropriate, from a certain point of view), that he should have a higher score. And, under the modern system, he gets a much higher score, 8893 vs. 6564. But Thorpe performed when equipment and tracks and training methods were very primitive. A better comparison might to be to bring Big Jim to the present in a time machine and put him through the same training Sebrle got and have him use the same equipment as Sebrle. Another way is to see how he compared to the best in each event of his time, as my system does. By that measure, Jim is ahead 8681 points to 8085. He averaged performing at 86.81% of the level of a world record holder of his time while Sebrle, who is unlikely to be remembered as long as Thorpe has, performed at 80.85% of the world record holder of his time.
Of course the early athlete might have had an advantage under my system, as well. The world record holders of Thorpe’s time, like Jim, were essentially part time performers. Modern world record holders spend their lives trying to excel in this event. You can’t just teach a guy who seems like he might be good at these things how to perform these events a few months before the games and have him charge to the gold medal- or to a world record. Just as it was impossible for Thorpe to achieve Sebrle’s raw numbers in his time, it’s probably impossible for Sebrle to get as close to the performance of a world record holder as Thorpe did.
So both systems are flawed and unfair to someone. I think mine has more clarity in terms of what the numbers represent, and there’s something to be said for that. It’s interesting that the change come on in the 1960’s. It was the norm, through the 1960 Olympics, for the Decathlon champ to perform at around 85% of the world’s record holder. 80% has been the norm since. Bob Mathias actually wasn’t that good the first time he won the decathlon. He was only 17 years old at the time. I suspect the post-war competition was less than it had been before the war and less than it would be in future Olympics. I think my system is better for observing such trends.
Here is a composite of average points scored under my system in each event by the 21 champions, in order of the point totals:
100M 914 points (the decathlon champ ran 91.4% as fast as the world record holder)
400M 909 points (he runs 400 meters 90.9% as fast)
110H 902 points (he runs the hurdles 90.2% as fast)
HJ 877 points (he jumps 87.7% as high)
LJ 870 points (he jumps 87.0% as long)
PV 806 points (he vaults 80.6% as high)
1500M 773 points (he runs the metric mile 77.3% as fast)
SP 740 points (he puts the shot 74.0% as far)
DISC 724 points (he throws the discus 72.4% as far)
JAV 707 points (he throws the javelin 70.7% as far)
Obviously if the average decathlete performs better in certain events vs. the world record than others, the events could count differently towards the Gold Medal. That’s what the system they use is typing to avoid. But if the second place guy could be 10% worse in the 100 meters and 10% worse in the javelin and it would be the same point differential. That’s what really counts. And my system shows what the typical decathlon champion is: he’s a bulked up runner more than a fast thrower. The present system just shows who won.
Bryan Clay of the United States won the 2008 Olympic Decathlon with 8791 points, (by the system in use). Here is how his performances stacked up vs. the world record in each event going into the games:
100M Clay 10.44 seconds WR 9.72 931 points
LJ Clay 7.78 meters WR 8.95 869 points
SP Clay 16.27 meters WR 23.12 704 points
HJ Clay 1.99 meters WR 2.45 812 points
400M Clay 48.92 meters WR 43.18 883 points
110H Clay 13.93 seconds WR 12.87 924 points
DISC Clay 53.79 meters WR 74.08 726 points
PV Clay 5.00 meters WR 6.14 814 points
JAV Clay 70.97 meters WR 98.48 721 points
1500M Clay 5:06.59 seconds WR 3:26.00 672 points
Total 8056 points
It’s interesting how long these world records have lasted in this age of specialization, (but also of increasing drug testing). The 100 meters record was just set in the Olympics Usain Bolt, breaking a record he’s set in the spring. But the long jump record has been around for 17 years, (Mike Powell broke Bob Beamon’s record that had been on the books for 23 years). The shot put record is 18 years old, the high jump 15. Michael Johnson’s 400 meter record is about to turn 9. The 110 meter hurdle record was set in the spring. The discus record is an ancient 22 years of age. Sergey Bubka’s pole vault record is 14. The javelin record, (with the “new design”) is 12 years old and the 1500 meter record a decade old. It appears that track and field has reached a sort of plateau and that the world records will change infrequently and probably by smaller increments as we go along. That will, of course, stabilize the basis for the decathlon scoring under my system, as well. It will be interesting to see if decathletes will creep towards the point totals from the old days and maybe toward Jim Thorpe’s “record” as we go along.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_records_in_athletics
2012 UPDATE
Ashton Eaton of the United States won the 2012 Olympic Decathlon with a total of 8869 points.
Using my system:
100M Eaton 10.35 seconds WR 9.58 926 points
LJ Eaton 8.03 meters WR 8.95 897 points
SP Eaton 14.66 meters WR 23.12 634 points
HJ Eaton 2.05 meters WR 2.45 837 points
400M Eaton 46.90 meters WR 43.18 921 points
110H Eaton 13.56 seconds WR 12.87 949 points
DISC Eaton 42.53 meters WR 74.08 574 points
PV Eaton 5.20 meters WR 6.14 846 points
JAV Eaton 61.96 meters WR 98.48 629 points
1500M Eaton 4:33.59 seconds WR 3:26.00 753 points
Total 7,966 points
(The only world record that has changed since the last Olympics is Usain Bolt’s record in the 100 meters, which he set in 2009. The 110 meter hurdles record dates from 2008, the 400 meters form 1999, the 1500 meters from 1998, the javelin from 1996, the pole vault from 1994, the high jump from 1993, the long jump since 1991, the shot put since 1990 and the discus from way back in 1986- the Mets were the World Series champions!)
I decided to follow-up on my idea about scoring the Decathlon. Here is the points system used by the decathlon at the present time, according to Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decathlon#Points_system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decathlon_scoring_tables
These numbers were obviously put together by experts in each sport with the idea that an equal performance in each event should result in an equal number of points. The number should represent some kind of “par” for that event. But in looking at that I, as an average fan, have no idea what the numbers mean.
The 2004 Decathlon champion, Roman Sebrle of the Czech Republic had the following numbers in each event:
100m 10.85 seconds Points: 894
LJ 7.84 meters Points: 1020
SP 16.6 meters Points: 873
HJ 2.12 meters Points: 915
400M 48.36 seconds Points: 892
110H 14.05 seconds Points: 968
DISC 48.72 meters Points: 844
PV 5.00 meters Points: 910
JAV 70.52 meters Points: 897
1500M 4:40.1 seconds Points: 680
He wound up with 8893 points. I can’t look at the above results and figure out what the formulas mean or what 8893 points really represents. My idea was to divide the decathlete’s result by the existing world record, (entering the meet), if it’s a distance, (and the world’s record would be the larger number), or divide the world’s record by the decathlete’s performance if it’s a timed event, (and the world’s record would be the smaller number). Take each division out to three spots, remove the decimal point and there’s your number of points. Let’s look at Sebrle’s numbers under this system:
100m 10.85 seconds WR: 9.78 Points: 901
LJ 7.84 meters WR: 8.95 Points: 876
SP 16.6 meters WR: 23.12 Points: 708
HJ 2.12 meters WR: 2.45 Points: 865
400M 48.36 seconds WR: 43.18 Points: 893
110H 14.05 seconds WR: 12.91 Points: 919
DISC 48.72 meters WR: 74.08 Points: 658
PV 5.00 meters WR: 6.14 Points: 814
JAV 70.52 meters WR: 98.48 Points: 716
1500M 4:40.1 seconds WR: 3:26.0 Points: 735
His total under this system is 8085 points. He was 90.1% as good as the world record in the 100 meters, 87.6% as good as the record in the long jump and so on. On the average, he was 80.85% as good as the world record in each event. He was 80.85% as good as the best specialist in each field.
I looked at each of the 21 Olympic Decathlon Champions under my system and the current system, (the current tables: the tables have changed over the years so you will see different numbers for past champions). It’s possible that some of them might not have won under my system but I stuck with them, rather than rating their pursuers. (Per David Wallechinsky’s “Complete Book of the Summer Olympics”, some past winners would not have been the winners under the current tables.) For brevity, I’m just showing the final totals. The event is not an ancient event: it was never held prior to the fifth of the modern games.
1912 Jim Thorpe, USA: Present system: 6564 points / My system: 8681 points
1920 Helge Leveland, NOR: Present system: 6803 points / My system: 8141 points
1924 Harold Osborn, USA: Present system: 6476 points / My system: 8402 points
1928 Paavo Yrjola, FIN: Present system: 6607 points / My system: 8545 points
1932 James Bausch USA: Present system: 6735 points / My system: 8610 points
1936 Glenn Morris USA: Present system: 7254 points / My system: 8502 points
1948 Bob Mathias USA: Present system: 6628 points / My system: 7990 points
1952 Bob Mathias USA: Present system: 7580 points / My system: 8547 points
1956 Milt Campbell USA: Present system: 7565 points / My system: 8349 points
1960 Rafer Johnson USA: Present system: 7901 points / My system: 8435 points
1964 Willie Holdorf, GER: Present system: 7726 points / My system: 8036 points
1968 Bill Toomey, USA: Present system: 8158 points / My system: 8042 points
1972 Mykola Avilov, USSR: Present system: 8466 points / My system: 8143 points
1976 Bruce Jenner USA: Present system: 8634 points / My system: 8213 points
1980 Daley Thompson GBR: Present system: 8522 points / My system: 8047 points
1984 Daley Thompson GBR: Present system: 8847 points / My system: 8132 points
1988 Christian Schenk GDR: Present system: 8488 points / My system: 7978 points
1992 Robert Zmelick CZE: Present system: 8611 points / My system: 7967 points
1996 Dan O’Brien USA: Present system: 8824 points / My system: 8038 points
2000 Erki Nool, EST: Present system: 8641 points / My system: 7905 points
2004 Roman Sebrle CZE: Present system: 8893 points / My system: 8085 points
Roman Sebrle ran faster, (with one interesting exception), jumped higher and threw things farther than Jim Thorpe:
100m Sebrle 10.85 seconds Thorpe 11.2 seconds
LJ Sebrle 7.84 meters Thorpe 6.79 meters
SP Sebrle 16.6 meters Thorpe 12.89 meters
HJ Sebrle 2.12 meters Thorpe 1.87 meters
400M Sebrle 48.36 seconds Thorpe 52.2 seconds
110H Sebrle 14.05 seconds Thorpe 15.6 seconds
DISC Sebrle 48.72 meters Thorpe 36.98 meters
PV Sebrle 5.00 meters Thorpe 3.25 meters
JAV Sebrle 70.52 meters Thorpe 45.70 meters
1500M Sebrle 4:40.1 seconds Thorpe 4:40.1 seconds
It’s thus appropriate, from a certain point of view), that he should have a higher score. And, under the modern system, he gets a much higher score, 8893 vs. 6564. But Thorpe performed when equipment and tracks and training methods were very primitive. A better comparison might to be to bring Big Jim to the present in a time machine and put him through the same training Sebrle got and have him use the same equipment as Sebrle. Another way is to see how he compared to the best in each event of his time, as my system does. By that measure, Jim is ahead 8681 points to 8085. He averaged performing at 86.81% of the level of a world record holder of his time while Sebrle, who is unlikely to be remembered as long as Thorpe has, performed at 80.85% of the world record holder of his time.
Of course the early athlete might have had an advantage under my system, as well. The world record holders of Thorpe’s time, like Jim, were essentially part time performers. Modern world record holders spend their lives trying to excel in this event. You can’t just teach a guy who seems like he might be good at these things how to perform these events a few months before the games and have him charge to the gold medal- or to a world record. Just as it was impossible for Thorpe to achieve Sebrle’s raw numbers in his time, it’s probably impossible for Sebrle to get as close to the performance of a world record holder as Thorpe did.
So both systems are flawed and unfair to someone. I think mine has more clarity in terms of what the numbers represent, and there’s something to be said for that. It’s interesting that the change come on in the 1960’s. It was the norm, through the 1960 Olympics, for the Decathlon champ to perform at around 85% of the world’s record holder. 80% has been the norm since. Bob Mathias actually wasn’t that good the first time he won the decathlon. He was only 17 years old at the time. I suspect the post-war competition was less than it had been before the war and less than it would be in future Olympics. I think my system is better for observing such trends.
Here is a composite of average points scored under my system in each event by the 21 champions, in order of the point totals:
100M 914 points (the decathlon champ ran 91.4% as fast as the world record holder)
400M 909 points (he runs 400 meters 90.9% as fast)
110H 902 points (he runs the hurdles 90.2% as fast)
HJ 877 points (he jumps 87.7% as high)
LJ 870 points (he jumps 87.0% as long)
PV 806 points (he vaults 80.6% as high)
1500M 773 points (he runs the metric mile 77.3% as fast)
SP 740 points (he puts the shot 74.0% as far)
DISC 724 points (he throws the discus 72.4% as far)
JAV 707 points (he throws the javelin 70.7% as far)
Obviously if the average decathlete performs better in certain events vs. the world record than others, the events could count differently towards the Gold Medal. That’s what the system they use is typing to avoid. But if the second place guy could be 10% worse in the 100 meters and 10% worse in the javelin and it would be the same point differential. That’s what really counts. And my system shows what the typical decathlon champion is: he’s a bulked up runner more than a fast thrower. The present system just shows who won.
Bryan Clay of the United States won the 2008 Olympic Decathlon with 8791 points, (by the system in use). Here is how his performances stacked up vs. the world record in each event going into the games:
100M Clay 10.44 seconds WR 9.72 931 points
LJ Clay 7.78 meters WR 8.95 869 points
SP Clay 16.27 meters WR 23.12 704 points
HJ Clay 1.99 meters WR 2.45 812 points
400M Clay 48.92 meters WR 43.18 883 points
110H Clay 13.93 seconds WR 12.87 924 points
DISC Clay 53.79 meters WR 74.08 726 points
PV Clay 5.00 meters WR 6.14 814 points
JAV Clay 70.97 meters WR 98.48 721 points
1500M Clay 5:06.59 seconds WR 3:26.00 672 points
Total 8056 points
It’s interesting how long these world records have lasted in this age of specialization, (but also of increasing drug testing). The 100 meters record was just set in the Olympics Usain Bolt, breaking a record he’s set in the spring. But the long jump record has been around for 17 years, (Mike Powell broke Bob Beamon’s record that had been on the books for 23 years). The shot put record is 18 years old, the high jump 15. Michael Johnson’s 400 meter record is about to turn 9. The 110 meter hurdle record was set in the spring. The discus record is an ancient 22 years of age. Sergey Bubka’s pole vault record is 14. The javelin record, (with the “new design”) is 12 years old and the 1500 meter record a decade old. It appears that track and field has reached a sort of plateau and that the world records will change infrequently and probably by smaller increments as we go along. That will, of course, stabilize the basis for the decathlon scoring under my system, as well. It will be interesting to see if decathletes will creep towards the point totals from the old days and maybe toward Jim Thorpe’s “record” as we go along.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_records_in_athletics
2012 UPDATE
Ashton Eaton of the United States won the 2012 Olympic Decathlon with a total of 8869 points.
Using my system:
100M Eaton 10.35 seconds WR 9.58 926 points
LJ Eaton 8.03 meters WR 8.95 897 points
SP Eaton 14.66 meters WR 23.12 634 points
HJ Eaton 2.05 meters WR 2.45 837 points
400M Eaton 46.90 meters WR 43.18 921 points
110H Eaton 13.56 seconds WR 12.87 949 points
DISC Eaton 42.53 meters WR 74.08 574 points
PV Eaton 5.20 meters WR 6.14 846 points
JAV Eaton 61.96 meters WR 98.48 629 points
1500M Eaton 4:33.59 seconds WR 3:26.00 753 points
Total 7,966 points
(The only world record that has changed since the last Olympics is Usain Bolt’s record in the 100 meters, which he set in 2009. The 110 meter hurdles record dates from 2008, the 400 meters form 1999, the 1500 meters from 1998, the javelin from 1996, the pole vault from 1994, the high jump from 1993, the long jump since 1991, the shot put since 1990 and the discus from way back in 1986- the Mets were the World Series champions!)
