The Incessant Hand Wringing

[pfister1]

over recruiting is really getting tiresome. Yes, we appear to have had a down year (as measured by not getting particular targets, rather than the ultimate class) although we don't even know who will ultimately constitute the final class for next season. And the last couple of years have been down when you put aside our early entrants because we have not had reasonable developmental players to step in and fill the voids left by the guys leaving early (also partially/largely attributable to scholarship reductions). Yes we all see that and know that. All of that is water under the proverbial bridge at this point. It is what it is and aside from JB pulling a rabbit or two out of his hat, it can't be changed.

Clearly changes have occurred .... maybe they will bring different results, maybe they won't; only time will tell, but it seems really improbable that any change that is made now will have all that much impact on next year's roster. Recruiting isn't a draft where you simply pick available players. You have to identify them early, put time in and convince them to pick you. We made our bed for next year with decisions that were made over the last year or two, there is a chance JB can alter some of it, but again it isn't like the NFL draft where you simply have to make better selections and we can still make those selections.

So if you really must wring your hands do so over our approach to the Class of 2018 or 2019 guys; that is a place where if we are smart we can probably still see significant results...but there isn't a lot that can be done for the 2017-18 roster other than a couple of late hail Marys and the grad transfer route. Again, this is not to say that those Hail Marys won't be fruitful, just that there aren't really great Plan Bs and Cs that can be chased for next year. We made decisions on our approach to this class that are really difficult to overcome this late in the game. But focus on our approach to what can be changed, not our approach to the water that has already flowed under the dam.

 

[Dcuse]

over recruiting is really getting tiresome. Yes, we appear to have had a down year (as measured by not getting particular targets, rather than the ultimate class) although we don't even know who will ultimately constitute the final class for next season. And the last couple of years have been down when you put aside our early entrants because we have not had reasonable developmental players to step in and fill the voids left by the guys leaving early (also partially/largely attributable to scholarship reductions). Yes we all see that and know that. All of that is water under the proverbial bridge at this point. It is what it is and aside from JB pulling a rabbit or two out of his hat, it can't be changed.

Clearly changes have occurred ... maybe they will bring different results, maybe they won't; only time will tell, but it seems really improbable that any change that is made now will have all that much impact on next year's roster. Recruiting isn't a draft where you simply pick available players. You have to identify them early, put time in and convince them to pick you. We made our bed for next year with decisions that were made over the last year or two, there is a chance JB can alter some of it, but again it isn't like the NFL draft where you simply have to make better selections and we can still make those selections.

So if you really must wring your hands do so over our approach to the Class of 2018 or 2019 guys; that is a place where if we are smart we can probably still see significant results...but there isn't a lot that can be done for the 2017-18 roster other than a couple of late hail Marys and the grad transfer route. Again, this is not to say that it won't be fruitful, just that there aren't really great Plan Bs and Cs that can be chased for next year. We made decisions on our approach to this class that are really difficult to overcome this late in the game. But focus on our approach to what can be changed, not our approach to the water that has already flowed under the dam.

Hand Wringing is what we do here.Its a byproduct of passion. Does it sound downright moronic sometimes? yes

 

[dasher]

over recruiting is really getting tiresome. Yes, we appear to have had a down year (as measured by not getting particular targets, rather than the ultimate class) although we don't even know who will ultimately constitute the final class for next season. And the last couple of years have been down when you put aside our early entrants because we have not had reasonable developmental players to step in and fill the voids left by the guys leaving early (also partially/largely attributable to scholarship reductions). Yes we all see that and know that. All of that is water under the proverbial bridge at this point. It is what it is and aside from JB pulling a rabbit or two out of his hat, it can't be changed.

Clearly changes have occurred ... maybe they will bring different results, maybe they won't; only time will tell, but it seems really improbable that any change that is made now will have all that much impact on next year's roster. Recruiting isn't a draft where you simply pick available players. You have to identify them early, put time in and convince them to pick you. We made our bed for next year with decisions that were made over the last year or two, there is a chance JB can alter some of it, but again it isn't like the NFL draft where you simply have to make better selections and we can still make those selections.

So if you really must wring your hands do so over our approach to the Class of 2018 or 2019 guys; that is a place where if we are smart we can probably still see significant results...but there isn't a lot that can be done for the 2017-18 roster other than a couple of late hail Marys and the grad transfer route. Again, this is not to say that it won't be fruitful, just that there aren't really great Plan Bs and Cs that can be chased for next year. We made decisions on our approach to this class that are really difficult to overcome this late in the game. But focus on our approach to what can be changed, not our approach to the water that has already flowed under the dam.

If only there was a way one didn't have to see the hand wringing.

 

[orangefog]

If only there was a way one didn't have to see the hand wringing.

There has to be a way. Think, damn it, think.
Edit: Oh, and for those excessive hand wringers, please consider a good moisturizing lotion. The skin on your hands will get terribly dry and crack. It can be painful, but it is avoidable with either a good lotion.

 

[AirForceOrange]

There is no hand-wringing on the pay side...

 

[cliftonparksufan]

over recruiting is really getting tiresome. Yes, we appear to have had a down year (as measured by not getting particular targets, rather than the ultimate class) although we don't even know who will ultimately constitute the final class for next season. And the last couple of years have been down when you put aside our early entrants because we have not had reasonable developmental players to step in and fill the voids left by the guys leaving early (also partially/largely attributable to scholarship reductions). Yes we all see that and know that. All of that is water under the proverbial bridge at this point. It is what it is and aside from JB pulling a rabbit or two out of his hat, it can't be changed.

Clearly changes have occurred ... maybe they will bring different results, maybe they won't; only time will tell, but it seems really improbable that any change that is made now will have all that much impact on next year's roster. Recruiting isn't a draft where you simply pick available players. You have to identify them early, put time in and convince them to pick you. We made our bed for next year with decisions that were made over the last year or two, there is a chance JB can alter some of it, but again it isn't like the NFL draft where you simply have to make better selections and we can still make those selections.

So if you really must wring your hands do so over our approach to the Class of 2018 or 2019 guys; that is a place where if we are smart we can probably still see significant results...but there isn't a lot that can be done for the 2017-18 roster other than a couple of late hail Marys and the grad transfer route. Again, this is not to say that it won't be fruitful, just that there aren't really great Plan Bs and Cs that can be chased for next year. We made decisions on our approach to this class that are really difficult to overcome this late in the game. But focus on our approach to what can be changed, not our approach to the water that has already flowed under the dam.

Personally, I don't think anyone, even all the experts, knows exactly what is going on with Syracuse recruiting. Social media helps, but no one can claim they know where all the coaches are at all times, who they are meeting with, who they are talking with. The info just isn't 100% available. That being said, obviously the proof is in the pudding. I think more hand wringing goes on during the season as the product is right in front of us. It's a lot easier to second guess or be more subjective if you are that type of person.

 

[cuseinseattle]

over recruiting is really getting tiresome. Yes, we appear to have had a down year (as measured by not getting particular targets, rather than the ultimate class) although we don't even know who will ultimately constitute the final class for next season. And the last couple of years have been down when you put aside our early entrants because we have not had reasonable developmental players to step in and fill the voids left by the guys leaving early (also partially/largely attributable to scholarship reductions). Yes we all see that and know that. All of that is water under the proverbial bridge at this point. It is what it is and aside from JB pulling a rabbit or two out of his hat, it can't be changed.

Clearly changes have occurred ... maybe they will bring different results, maybe they won't; only time will tell, but it seems really improbable that any change that is made now will have all that much impact on next year's roster. Recruiting isn't a draft where you simply pick available players. You have to identify them early, put time in and convince them to pick you. We made our bed for next year with decisions that were made over the last year or two, there is a chance JB can alter some of it, but again it isn't like the NFL draft where you simply have to make better selections and we can still make those selections.

So if you really must wring your hands do so over our approach to the Class of 2018 or 2019 guys; that is a place where if we are smart we can probably still see significant results...but there isn't a lot that can be done for the 2017-18 roster other than a couple of late hail Marys and the grad transfer route. Again, this is not to say that those Hail Marys won't be fruitful, just that there aren't really great Plan Bs and Cs that can be chased for next year. We made decisions on our approach to this class that are really difficult to overcome this late in the game. But focus on our approach to what can be changed, not our approach to the water that has already flowed under the dam.

The reality is if we can get Ayala and Tucker which seems very possible you put them with Brissett, Sidibe and Washington and that is a solid class in my opinion. You could even add Moyer in since he redshirted. For the frustration I feel we could still come way with a solid class. Then we can focus on next year and hopefully build on it.

 

[orangefog]

The reality is if we can get Ayala and Tucker which seems very possible you put them with Brissett, Sidibe and Washington and that is a solid class in my opinion. You could even add Moyer in since he redshirted. For the frustration I feel we could still come way with a solid class. Then we can focus on next year and hopefully build on it.

I agree, it is solid and is a great foundation, but so many of us had much higher expectations for this class. And, perhaps foolishly, I have the same high expectations for the next class. But, no matter what, if they're wearing orange, I'm rooting for them.

 

[newmexicuse]

The hand wringing is a result of a combination of delusional recruiting and a lack of a Plan B. This has been going on for the last several seasons.

The recruiting landscape has changed as has our status as a preferred destination due to on-court mediocrity for the last several seasons. Factor in that the landscape is changing. It used to be that anything less than a Top 20 kid had no delusions of one and done NBA grandeur. Now just about every Top 100 kid thinks he can be a one & done...or so it seems. This changing landscape has made our 100% Zone reliance and stodgy O much less desirable IMHO.

Winning solves everything, but if we can't get back to being a 25 win Top 20 program every season then we will need to change our approach to both recruiting and on-court style.

As grateful as I am for all Jimmy has done for us decade after decade of success. I think the old formula has broken down and a new one needs to be found & we all know exactly how open minded Jimmy is about change.

 

[Alsacs]

over recruiting is really getting tiresome. Yes, we appear to have had a down year (as measured by not getting particular targets, rather than the ultimate class) although we don't even know who will ultimately constitute the final class for next season. And the last couple of years have been down when you put aside our early entrants because we have not had reasonable developmental players to step in and fill the voids left by the guys leaving early (also partially/largely attributable to scholarship reductions). Yes we all see that and know that. All of that is water under the proverbial bridge at this point. It is what it is and aside from JB pulling a rabbit or two out of his hat, it can't be changed.

Clearly changes have occurred ... maybe they will bring different results, maybe they won't; only time will tell, but it seems really improbable that any change that is made now will have all that much impact on next year's roster. Recruiting isn't a draft where you simply pick available players. You have to identify them early, put time in and convince them to pick you. We made our bed for next year with decisions that were made over the last year or two, there is a chance JB can alter some of it, but again it isn't like the NFL draft where you simply have to make better selections and we can still make those selections.

So if you really must wring your hands do so over our approach to the Class of 2018 or 2019 guys; that is a place where if we are smart we can probably still see significant results...but there isn't a lot that can be done for the 2017-18 roster other than a couple of late hail Marys and the grad transfer route. Again, this is not to say that those Hail Marys won't be fruitful, just that there aren't really great Plan Bs and Cs that can be chased for next year. We made decisions on our approach to this class that are really difficult to overcome this late in the game. But focus on our approach to what can be changed, not our approach to the water that has already flowed under the dam.

What changes have been made on recruiting?

 

[GooseMutt]

over recruiting is really getting tiresome. Yes, we appear to have had a down year (as measured by not getting particular targets, rather than the ultimate class) although we don't even know who will ultimately constitute the final class for next season. And the last couple of years have been down when you put aside our early entrants because we have not had reasonable developmental players to step in and fill the voids left by the guys leaving early (also partially/largely attributable to scholarship reductions). Yes we all see that and know that. All of that is water under the proverbial bridge at this point. It is what it is and aside from JB pulling a rabbit or two out of his hat, it can't be changed.

Clearly changes have occurred ... maybe they will bring different results, maybe they won't; only time will tell, but it seems really improbable that any change that is made now will have all that much impact on next year's roster. Recruiting isn't a draft where you simply pick available players. You have to identify them early, put time in and convince them to pick you. We made our bed for next year with decisions that were made over the last year or two, there is a chance JB can alter some of it, but again it isn't like the NFL draft where you simply have to make better selections and we can still make those selections.

So if you really must wring your hands do so over our approach to the Class of 2018 or 2019 guys; that is a place where if we are smart we can probably still see significant results...but there isn't a lot that can be done for the 2017-18 roster other than a couple of late hail Marys and the grad transfer route. Again, this is not to say that those Hail Marys won't be fruitful, just that there aren't really great Plan Bs and Cs that can be chased for next year. We made decisions on our approach to this class that are really difficult to overcome this late in the game. But focus on our approach to what can be changed, not our approach to the water that has already flowed under the dam.

I don't disagree with most of your post but where you and I disconnect is I want them to be rabid in their recruiting efforts now and I am not conceding next years class. There are a number of quality players still available and I want the staff to get out there. Cuse situation has changed. An important change. I say never give up/ concede. Caliparis flying around as is coach k. Someone posted the entire Virg Tech staff all went to a recruits game. Let's get Competitive at recruiting.

 

[Jasoncuse]

This changing landscape has made our 100% Zone reliance and stodgy O much less desirable IMHO.

I think that's something that gets overlooked sometimes. Seems like most kids don't want to play zone, especially ALL the time. You can't blame them for that. On top of that, we recruit only specific types of players that are usually longer, rangier athletes. That adds more limitation.

And the way we run an offense, or don't, cannot be appealing to any kid that pays attention to us. I'm not sure recruits pay much attention to that, but if they do, it can't be helpful for us. Dribbling around for 20 seconds to fire up shots late on the shot clock is not a fun way to play.

 

[cuseinseattle]

I agree, it is solid and is a great foundation, but so many of us had much higher expectations for this class. And, perhaps foolishly, I have the same high expectations for the next class. But, no matter what, if they're wearing orange, I'm rooting for them.

I felt the same way. Obviously the Green thing was a big setback. Having said that we would have a good foundation with this class to go with TT and Battle. The benefit of not going the 5th year route for two kids is that we have kids that will be in our system and we can develop.

 

[GooseMutt]

I think that's something that gets overlooked sometimes. Seems like most kids don't want to play zone, especially ALL the time. You can't blame them for that. On top of that, we recruit only specific types of players that are usually longer, rangier athletes. That adds more limitation.

And the way we run an offense, or don't, cannot be appealing to any kid that pays attention to us. I'm not sure recruits pay much attention to that, but if they do, it can't be helpful for us. Dribbling around for 20 seconds to fire up shots late on the shot clock is not a fun way to play.

For true point guards this is the situation they want. Ability to read and create on their iwn

 

[RF2044]

over recruiting is really getting tiresome. Yes, we appear to have had a down year (as measured by not getting particular targets, rather than the ultimate class) although we don't even know who will ultimately constitute the final class for next season. And the last couple of years have been down when you put aside our early entrants because we have not had reasonable developmental players to step in and fill the voids left by the guys leaving early (also partially/largely attributable to scholarship reductions). Yes we all see that and know that. All of that is water under the proverbial bridge at this point. It is what it is and aside from JB pulling a rabbit or two out of his hat, it can't be changed.

Clearly changes have occurred ... maybe they will bring different results, maybe they won't; only time will tell, but it seems really improbable that any change that is made now will have all that much impact on next year's roster. Recruiting isn't a draft where you simply pick available players. You have to identify them early, put time in and convince them to pick you. We made our bed for next year with decisions that were made over the last year or two, there is a chance JB can alter some of it, but again it isn't like the NFL draft where you simply have to make better selections and we can still make those selections.

So if you really must wring your hands do so over our approach to the Class of 2018 or 2019 guys; that is a place where if we are smart we can probably still see significant results...but there isn't a lot that can be done for the 2017-18 roster other than a couple of late hail Marys and the grad transfer route. Again, this is not to say that those Hail Marys won't be fruitful, just that there aren't really great Plan Bs and Cs that can be chased for next year. We made decisions on our approach to this class that are really difficult to overcome this late in the game. But focus on our approach to what can be changed, not our approach to the water that has already flowed under the dam.

Pfister1, I think you are an outstanding poster, but I honestly believe that you are barking up the wrong tree with this post.

Most everybody recognized that by bringing in two grad transfers last year, we were going to have an excessively large # of open scholarships for the class of 2017, and that the focus of this class needed to be on adding depth at the perimeter positions. Right now, we have a class comprised of two bigs and a backup guard, and all of the same gaping roster holes that we did last November.

I think that most posters are very excited about Brissett / Sidibe, and recognize that both are probably better than what their rankings suggest. And many are excited about Howard's potential, both as a program guy and as a true point who might eventually round into form as a starter. But to date, the recruiting class hasn't done enough to fill our holes, and as of right now we only have 8 scholarship players lined up to be on next year's squad.

Yes, we might add Tucker and Ayala. If we do, then I agree with the post above that this will shape up to be a pretty damn good class. Maybe not one that would have been as exciting as if we'd added Quade Green, but a solid, top 25 class that would replenish the depth and put a lot of four year program guy types back onto the roster. BUT there are still some obstacles to landing that eventual class -- namely, it sounds like we aren't a shoo-in for Tucker with GT / Oregon / potentially Duke also in the mix, and even if we land Ayala we still have to deal with hurdles associated with him reclassifying and being able to play next year.

From my point of view, most of the hand wringing is about the circumstantial factors that put us in this precarious spot -- namely:

• NCAA sanctions that bit deeper than many anticipated
• Several players that we brought in washing out in recent seasons, which compromised depth / experience
• The coaching staff's perceived lack of effort on the recruiting trail
• Unnecessarily restricting ourselves to the northeast corridor for recruits
• Other players we turned up our noses at playing extremely well at other schools
• Missing out on two key recruits last fall that seemed like they were in the bag
• Our continued practice of putting all of our eggs in one basket to fill needs
• The fact that an unprecedented # of highly rated point guard recruits shook free this spring, but we didn't actively pursue any of them despite PG being such a key position of need
• Mike Hopkins's departure
• Concern over whether JB can flip the switch and suddenly take on the majority of operational responsibilities he delegated to Hopkins increasingly over the last 18 years
• The disturbing four year trend where we've amassed 42 losses since starting out 25-0 during the 13-14 season.

While it is very true that we might also actively hit the 5th year transfer market again, it remains to be seen [1] whether any starting-caliber players who would fill our holes will be on the open market, [2] whether they would consider coming here, or [3] whether we could actually land them. Imagine how last year might have gone if we hadn't landed Andrew White, for example. Most people aren't very excited about a 20 win season where we landed in the NIT. How many games would we have won sans a guy who we didn't even know would be on the team until the first day of fall semester?

That's the situation we're facing right now. You might be sick of some of the hand wringing, but speaking for myself -- I'm sick of the slippage. And I'm CONCERNED about the staff being able to reverse that trend, as JB approaches a "second" inevitable retirement.

And this is coming from somebody who loves JB, and is an unabashed supporter of the program. I honestly believe that in the all-time pantheon of great college coaches, JB is in the top 10, and that we're very, very lucky to have him. I'm just worried that the old man might not be able to flip the switch at his age and get back to rolling up his sleeves and doing the heavy lifting necessary for the program to excel anymore. Others may disagree, but I believe that to be a valid concern.

We're in a precarious spot, and the class of 2017 thus far doesn't dispel those concerns.

Again, not a knock on you directly or your post. I just disagree with your position.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I wish I didn't have to complain about recruiting, but we are staring ourselves in the face at 20 point losses at Virginia, Miami, Cameron, and Louisville next year. That's not even counting a game against Kansas in the OOC and games home against Notre Dame, UNC and VPI next year. All those teams have more talent than us. I'm sad.

 

[Alsacs]

People don't get how critical Tucker and Ayala are right now.
They are difference between a 18-13 season and 14-17 season.

Either way its going to be grinding white knuckle season. Atleast Dino will score some points next year.

 

[Cusefan0307]

The most concerning issue for me is JB is acting like a coach who has a stacked ACC roster for next year. I don't know how you can analyze the rest of the conference and only go after Tucker and Ayala. I almost feel like we are accepting mediocrity.

 

[cuseinseattle]

The most concerning issue for me is JB is acting like a coach who has a stacked ACC roster for next year. I don't know how you can analyze the rest of the conference and only go after Tucker and Ayala. I almost feel like we are accepting mediocrity.

I don't know that he is doing that. He is going after Ayala and Tucker which to be honest is about all we can do. There aren't a lot of kids left that would help our situation. We can't come in at the last minute and get kids like UK or Duke can. I'm encouraged by how he has been out there since Hop left. He needs to catch a 2nd wind. Hopefully he is doing that. Once we lost out on Green and Randolph and stopped recruiting Lonnie Walker and Washington (Minn) I'm not sure what we can do now. We need to try out best to bring in Ayala and Tucker and start to build for next year with kids like Williams (who I like) and the kid dasher mentioned, granted not sure who he was talking about but it would help. Obviously Quinerly and there are many other kids but we really need to get going. I know it won't happen but I would love to start playing man 25% of the time and not even telling anyone or announcing it. Just once the season starts we play man 1/4 the time, zone 1/2 and press 1/4 or something along those lines. I think that would really help with recruiting and we could catch some people flat footed. It's not going to happen but that is what the offseason is for. Dreaming.

 

[Cuseball]

People don't get how critical Tucker and Ayala are right now.
They are difference between a 18-13 season and 14-17 season.

Either way its going to be grinding white knuckle season. Atleast Dino will score some points next year.

I think with Tucker and Ayala we are a definitive tournament and in the top 6 of the ACC. I don't think people realize how good Battle is. Thompson will score 15+ a night and if he incrementally improve on defense (which is not a stretch) that gives us two of the top scorers in the conference. With one more shooter (preferably Tucker) the floor opens and although you can never tell with frosh I would expect him to be much better defensively from the 3 than White. Whoever we play at PG (likely Howard) will be better defensively than Gillon. Should also be better defensively at Center. The defensive improvement alone should be worth 3-4 games.

Cuse!

 

[cuseinseattle]

I think with Tucker and Ayala we are a definitive tournament and in the top 6 of the ACC. I don't think people realize how good Battle is. Thompson will score 15+ a night and if he incrementally improve on defense (which is not a stretch) that gives us two of the top scorers in the conference. With one more shooter (preferably Tucker) the floor opens and although you can never tell with frosh I would expect him to be much better defensively from the 3 than White. Whoever we play at PG (likely Howard) will be better defensively than Gillon. Should also be better defensively at Center. The defensive improvement alone should be worth 3-4 games.

Cuse!

I agree with much of what you said but the person you listed as our PG cannot dribble the basketball. That strikes me as a problem.

 

[HSPORANGE]

I agree with much of what you said but the person you listed as our PG cannot dribble the basketball. That strikes me as a problem.

I still think Frank makes a huge leap in his development. Even if they bring Ayala in, I don't see him getting the majority of minutes at pg, unless Frank is terrible. And if Frank is terrible, than Cuse is in some trouble next year. Frank can pass and create. He just needs to work on being in control and his shot.

 

[Cuseball]

I agree with much of what you said but the person you listed as our PG cannot dribble the basketball. That strikes me as a problem.

Ha Ha. Yes, besides that one minor issue we are good!

 

[Jasoncuse]

I think with Tucker and Ayala we are a definitive tournament and in the top 6 of the ACC. I don't think people realize how good Battle is. Thompson will score 15+ a night and if he incrementally improve on defense (which is not a stretch) that gives us two of the top scorers in the conference. With one more shooter (preferably Tucker) the floor opens and although you can never tell with frosh I would expect him to be much better defensively from the 3 than White. Whoever we play at PG (likely Howard) will be better defensively than Gillon. Should also be better defensively at Center. The defensive improvement alone should be worth 3-4 games.

Cuse!

I think we'll have defensive issues again, at least early on. We're looking at starting 2-3 new players, again, with a bunch of freshmen that will be in the rotation. So many people complained about the 5th years on D last year; we could have those same issues with freshmen this year.

And even if the D improves, it sure looks like we're taking a sizable hit offensively from a team that wasn't even all that good on O. In the ACC, unless you play elite D, you need to be able to score. I'm worried we're going to have those issues again.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

I still think Frank makes a huge leap in his development. Even if they bring Ayala in, I don't see him getting the majority of minutes at pg, unless Frank is terrible. And if Frank is terrible, than Cuse is in some trouble next year. Frank can pass and create. He just needs to work on being in control and his shot.

Frank already is terrible. You are hoping he improves to serviceable.