The NCAA stuff, perception versus reality

[Dave85]

Over on the never ending TT thread, someone made the comment that they think TT's mom doesn't want him to come here because of the NCAA violations. Now I know in this age of perception is reality people will just about accept any opinion as hard fact. But, it seems to me the issues we had were pretty minor. In my mind a good scandal is like the University of Michigan one involving federal indictments. We had a couple of issue but in my mind, in reality, we run an extremely clean basketball program and we work very hard to keep it that way. Am I wrong? The popular perception seems to be that we run a dirty program. It's not like we have systemic fake classes helping our team's GPA so we can qualify to play. Any thoughts?

 

[Consigliere]

Over on the never ending TT thread, someone made the comment that they think TT's mom doesn't want him to come here because of the NCAA violations. Now I know in this age of perception is reality people will just about accept any opinion as hard fact. But, it seems to me the issues we had were pretty minor. In my mind a good scandal is like the University of Michigan one involving federal indictments. We had a couple of issue but in my mind, in reality, we run an extremely clean basketball program and we work very hard to keep it that way. Am I wrong? The popular perception seems to be that we run a dirty program. It's not like we have systemic fake classes helping our team's GPA so we can qualify to play. Any thoughts?

Not entirely relevant but I think it's pretty impressive that in the last 3 years we have graduated 3 players with (or close to receiving) master's degrees and 2 who got their bachelor's in 3 years. Pretty proud of the academic achievements of our recent classes AND the way the University handled an obvious outlier issue with the Fab Melo case.

 

[two3zone]

Over on the never ending TT thread, someone made the comment that they think TT's mom doesn't want him to come here because of the NCAA violations. Now I know in this age of perception is reality people will just about accept any opinion as hard fact. But, it seems to me the issues we had were pretty minor. In my mind a good scandal is like the University of Michigan one involving federal indictments. We had a couple of issue but in my mind, in reality, we run an extremely clean basketball program and we work very hard to keep it that way. Am I wrong? The popular perception seems to be that we run a dirty program. It's not like we have systemic fake classes helping our team's GPA so we can qualify to play. Any thoughts?

If we ignore what every other school has done with their allegations and we actually look and what was done here it was extremely shady.

Syracuse basketball NCAA investigation: How far did the school go to keep Fab Melo eligible?

I'm not defending the other schools for what they did because they're wrong, but comparing their bad things to our bad things is just dumb. If person A murders someone and person B rapes somebody, it doesn't make person B a good person.

 

[Briancuse]

Ya the perception is we run a dirty program, because that is all the haters talk about. Seton Hall fans call us cheaters and dirty, they never mention the fact that they had players breaking into peoples houses and robbing them, or players drunk driving down the wrong end of a street.

 

[pfister1]

This discussion is kind of off base. The point was made that Ma Thompson (and other recruits or parents of recruits) might have a negative impression of SU because of the recent controversies that have occurred and that impression might impact our ability to successfully recruit those folks.

The fact that SU fans don't have that negative impression, or believe that they have more/more accurate information that makes the other folks' negative impressions questionable is really moot.

Once a person assumes a negative impression, you can't simply correct/change that impression because you tell a good story. If Ma Thompson doesn't trust JB or doesn't believe he is a good person, JB, Hop, Red and GMac can talk to her all day long and tell her anything they think may counter that impression, but it doesn't mean that she is going to trust what they are telling her or buy into it. That's why people say first impressions are so important, because initial impressions are very difficult to overcome...regardless of whether they are based on accurate information or not. They color every single fact presented after the impression is formed.

You can easily see how a recruit or a recruit's family could have a negative impression of JB and SU (and it can't all be laid at the feet of the NCAA) based on much of this stuff:

- Bernie Fine scandal (doesn't matter how much truth there was to it - it looked really ugly for anyone who didn't have the patience to try to actually follow the entire thing)
- Fab Melo B.S. (both losing him in the middle of our tourney run and revelations that came out with the NCAA report - I realize these are the same incidents - but they run through the press at two distinct times and can seem like two unrelated incidents to the casual observer)
- Marijuana / Drug Testing revelations and failure to discipline players testing positive
- NCAA Self Imposed Tournament Ban 2015 (Feburary ish 2015)
- NCAA Infractions 4 year scholarship impact (March 2015)
- NCAA Infractions appeal and result (Fall 2015)
- JB - 9 game suspension (December 2015)
- "Running Off" players (Johnson, Patterson, Joseph)
- JB "negative" comments about guys leaving early (Ennis/Grant/McCullough/Richardson).
- Is JB retiring or isn't he, who will coach me if I come???


Bottom line is you can argue all day long that these things are no worse than what goes on elsewhere, they aren't really based in fact, etc., etc., etc. but the truth is that people outside of the Orange family aren't as likely to shrug them off as we are.

 

[DoctorBombay]

This discussion is kind of off base. The point was made that Ma Thompson (and other recruits or parents of recruits) might have a negative impression of SU because of the recent controversies that have occurred and that impression might impact our ability to successfully recruit those folks.

The fact that SU fans don't have that negative impression, or believe that they have more/more accurate information that makes the other folks' negative impressions questionable is really moot.

Once a person assumes a negative impression, you can't simply correct/change that impression because you tell a good story. If Ma Thompson doesn't trust JB or doesn't believe he is a good person, JB, Hop, Red and GMac can talk to her all day long and tell her anything they think may counter that impression, but it doesn't mean that she is going to trust what they are telling her or buy into it. That's why people say first impressions are so important, because initial impressions are very difficult to overcome...regardless of whether they are based on accurate information or not. They color every single fact presented after the impression is formed.

You can easily see how a recruit or a recruit's family could have a negative impression of JB and SU (and it can't all be laid at the feet of the NCAA) based on much of this stuff:

- Bernie Fine scandal (doesn't matter how much truth there was to it - it looked really ugly for anyone who didn't have the patience to try to actually follow the entire thing)
- Fab Melo B.S. (both losing him in the middle of our tourney run and revelations that came out with the NCAA report - I realize these are the same incidents - but they run through the press at two distinct times and can seem like two unrelated incidents to the casual observer)
- Marijuana / Drug Testing revelations and failure to discipline players testing positive
- NCAA Self Imposed Tournament Ban 2015 (Feburary ish 2015)
- NCAA Infractions 4 year scholarship impact (March 2015)
- NCAA Infractions appeal and result (Fall 2015)
- JB - 9 game suspension (December 2015)
- "Running Off" players (Johnson, Patterson, Joseph)
- JB "negative" comments about guys leaving early (Ennis/Grant/McCullough/Richardson). All of be taken negatively depending on your view point.
- Is JB retiring or isn't he, who will coach me if I come???


Bottom line is you can argue all day long that these things are no worse than what goes on elsewhere, they aren't really based in fact, etc., etc., etc. but the truth is that people outside of the Orange family aren't as likely to shrug them off as we are.

This.
Its true that misery loves company, but I've never quite understood the " their *t stinks just as much or more, than our *t does" attitude.
We did what we did, and agree or disagree with the final verdict(s), let's just do our penance and move on.
Ms. TT and others will have their opinions, as is their right. But I have a feeling we'll survive with or without them.

 

[Briancuse]

This.
Its true that misery loves company, but I've never quite understood the " their . . *t stinks just as much or more, than our . . *t does" attitude.
We did what we did, and agree or disagree with the final verdict(s), let's just do our penance and move on.
Ms. TT and others will have their opinions, as is their right. But I have a feeling we'll survive with or without them.

Is that really what his moms concerns are about, or is it the distance?

 

[HoustonCuse]

Also consider that one of the drug testing violations was failing to notify parents when their kids were found to have taken drugs. As a parent, I can tell you I would think twice about sending my kid to a coach who has that on their record.

Look the bottom line is that no matter what was or wasn't done, how severe we think the violations were, how unfair we think the punishments were - the cold hard fact remains that Syracuse is one of the most penalized programs in the history of college basketball. Maybe the most penalized. That is a burden that has to be borne by the program for the rest of eternity. Some players/parents won't care about that. Others will be very bothered by it. It is hard to blame them.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Also consider that one of the drug testing violations was failing to notify parents when their kids were found to have taken drugs. As a parent, I can tell you I would think twice about sending my kid to a coach who has that on their record.

Look the bottom line is that no matter what was or wasn't done, how severe we think the violations were, how unfair we think the punishments were - the cold hard fact remains that Syracuse is one of the most penalized programs in the history of college basketball. Maybe the most penalized. That is a burden that has to be borne by the program for the rest of eternity. Some players/parents won't care about that. Others will be very bothered by it. It is hard to blame them.

And even that being true, we still don't cheat enough.

 

[RoysRunts]

And even that being true, we still don't cheat enough.

Also consider that one of the drug testing violations was failing to notify parents when their kids were found to have taken drugs. As a parent, I can tell you I would think twice about sending my kid to a coach who has that on their record.

Look the bottom line is that no matter what was or wasn't done, how severe we think the violations were, how unfair we think the punishments were - the cold hard fact remains that Syracuse is one of the most penalized programs in the history of college basketball. Maybe the most penalized. That is a burden that has to be borne by the program for the rest of eternity. Some players/parents won't care about that. Others will be very bothered by it. It is hard to blame them.

Don't examine the Facts,don't ask ?'s Just believe the media "paper don't refuse Ink"

 

[RoysRunts]

If we ignore what every other school has done with their allegations and we actually look and what was done here it was extremely shady.

Syracuse basketball NCAA investigation: How far did the school go to keep Fab Melo eligible?

I'm not defending the other schools for what they did because they're wrong, but comparing their bad things to our bad things is just dumb. If person A murders someone and person B rapes somebody, it doesn't make person B a good person.

The shadiest of the bunch is the NCAA

 

[urban96]

Also consider that one of the drug testing violations was failing to notify parents when their kids were found to have taken drugs. As a parent, I can tell you I would think twice about sending my kid to a coach who has that on their record.

Look the bottom line is that no matter what was or wasn't done, how severe we think the violations were, how unfair we think the punishments were - the cold hard fact remains that Syracuse is one of the most penalized programs in the history of college basketball. Maybe the most penalized. That is a burden that has to be borne by the program for the rest of eternity. Some players/parents won't care about that. Others will be very bothered by it. It is hard to blame them.

Even if the kid is 18+ you think his/her parents should be notified?

 

[721Comstock]

Even if the kid is 18+ you think his/her parents should be notified?

You know, just like with every other college student.

 

[HoustonCuse]

Even if the kid is 18+ you think his/her parents should be notified?

Thats what the policy said would happen, and yes.

 

[manleyzoo]

If we ignore what every other school has done with their allegations and we actually look and what was done here it was extremely shady.

Syracuse basketball NCAA investigation: How far did the school go to keep Fab Melo eligible?

I'm not defending the other schools for what they did because they're wrong, but comparing their bad things to our bad things is just dumb. If person A murders someone and person B rapes somebody, it doesn't make person B a good person.

There's more subtlety to it than not comparing bad things. It's not the violations per se that give the impression that a program is dirty, it's validation by the NCAA that establishes and cements the perception. The problem with that, of course, is the validation is arbitrary and without third-party oversight.

In that sense, comparing alleged violations is very much the point. Inasmuch as the NCAA is judge, jury and executioner, no one holds its feet to the fire to abide by precedent, either in the length of an investigation or the time to inform a school of the allegations--and worst of all, to set a suitable punishment.

Back to your point...because of the NCAA's arbitrary DNA, there's no way to rationally compare violations because the punishments are so unevenly and irresponsibly applied. It's not a question of the crimes themselves, it's a question of the punishments that establishes the difference between crimes. The way the NCAA operates, no one gets to to know which crime actually is worse than another.

 

[Dave85]

Thats what the policy said would happen, and yes.

If this is the NCAA policy, and it applies to all sports at the school, then the AD should have a compliance department that is responsible for making sure the kind of stuff that happened doesn't happen. Making sure we have compliance should be someone's full time job. Making sure we understand the rules should be someone's full time job. There's a lot at stake. I think this needs someone's full time attention.

 

[Briancuse]

If this is the NCAA policy, and it applies to all sports at the school, then the AD should have a compliance department that is responsible for making sure the kind of stuff that happened doesn't happen. Making sure we have compliance should be someone's full time job. Making sure we understand the rules should be someone's full time job. There's a lot at stake. I think this needs someone's full time attention.

You can't monitor these kids 24/7, thats why I find it so funny when people want a coach canned for something that a kid does.

 

[Dave85]

You can't monitor these kids 24/7, thats why I find it so funny when people want a coach canned for something that a kid does.

That's not what I was suggesting. I was suggestion a compliance officer who makes sure the tutors follow compliance rules. Someone who makes sure when a drug violations occur the parents get notified according to the compliance rules. Someone who makes sure student athletes understand the rules around summer jobs and how they can not cause an issue. Someone who makes sure the students athletes understand rules about playing in summer leagues. I'm not suggesting someone police the kids. What I am suggesting is someone who's job it is to actively promote compliance through education of players and staff. Someone who makes sure the tutors know the rules.

 

[orange79]

If this is the NCAA policy, and it applies to all sports at the school, then the AD should have a compliance department that is responsible for making sure the kind of stuff that happened doesn't happen. Making sure we have compliance should be someone's full time job. Making sure we understand the rules should be someone's full time job. There's a lot at stake. I think this needs someone's full time attention.

Mark Wheeler Appointed Director of Compliance

 

[Dave85]

Mark Wheeler Appointed Director of Compliance

Great link! How important is this guys job!!!

 

[manleyzoo]

That's not what I was suggesting. I was suggestion a compliance officer who makes sure the tutors follow compliance rules. Someone who makes sure when a drug violations occur the parents get notified according to the compliance rules. Someone who makes sure student athletes understand the rules around summer jobs and how they can not cause an issue. Someone who makes sure the students athletes understand rules about playing in summer leagues. I'm not suggesting someone police the kids. What I am suggesting is someone who's job it is to actively promote compliance through education of players and staff. Someone who makes sure the tutors know the rules.

Compliance isn't between the school, kid and parents it's between the kid, coaches, AD if appropriate and the NCAA. Parents are out of the equation. Colleges act in loco parentis or in place of parents. HIPAA privacy rules prevent schools from telling parents of kids over 18. My son got busted for weed in his dorm at age 20 and I never was notified by the school but he went before a judicial review board of his peer and teachers.

 

[hungrychuck]

Compliance isn't between the school, kid and parents it's between the kid, coaches, AD if appropriate and the NCAA. Parents are out of the equation. Colleges act in loco parentis or in place of parents. HIPAA privacy rules prevent schools from telling parents of kids over 18. My son got busted for weed in his dorm at age 20 and I never was notified by the school but he went before a judicial review board of his peer and teachers.

Good point. While SU was punished for not complying with its policy, its real sin was drafting a very poorly considered policy to begin with. The parental notification never should have been a part of this.

 

[Dave85]

Compliance isn't between the school, kid and parents it's between the kid, coaches, AD if appropriate and the NCAA. Parents are out of the equation. Colleges act in loco parentis or in place of parents. HIPAA privacy rules prevent schools from telling parents of kids over 18. My son got busted for weed in his dorm at age 20 and I never was notified by the school but he went before a judicial review board of his peer and teachers.

Regardless of your son, the AD is responsible for all NCAA athletics. The issue is bigger than the basketball coach and staff. Their job is to coach basketball. The AD is responsible for interacting with the NCAA.

 

[Briancuse]

Regardless of your son, the AD is responsible for all NCAA athletics. The issue is bigger than the basketball coach and staff. Their job is to coach basketball. The AD is responsible for interacting with the NCAA.

Which is alot of student athletes, how does an Ad or Coach stop a kid from getting high or doing something stupid?

 

[orangefog]

Which is alot of student athletes, how does an Ad or Coach stop a kid from getting high or doing something stupid?

It's simple, you tell these kids, each and everyone of them, that if they do drugs, they WILL DIE!!! It is not lying, because we will all die eventually.