The Yankee Rushmore

[SWC75]

Bob Ryan and another pundit, (didn't recognize him), were on ESPN yesterday discussing whether Marinao Rivera "was on the Yankee Rushmore". They pretty much agreed that the Yankee Rushmore should have four faces on it, just like the mountain. They also agreed that Rivera wouldn't make the cut. In their view there are three guys who obviosuly belong there: Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig and Joe DiMaggio. After some discussion they decided the fourth face should be that of Derek Jeter.


Is the image of Mickey Mantle somehow fading? Should Jeter really rank above him?

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Bob Ryan and another pundit, (didn't recognize him), were on ESPN yesterday discussing whether Marinao Rivera "was on the Yankee Rushmore". They pretty much agreed that the Yankee Rushmore should have four faces on it, just like the mountain. They also agreed that Rivera wouldn't make the cut. In their view there are three guys who obviosuly belong there: Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig and Joe DiMaggio. After some discussion they decided the fourth face should be that of Derek Jeter.


Is the image of Mickey Mantle somehow fading? Should Jeter really rank above him?

As a player, no. He was never the best at his position. Based on achievements, yes. I would need to closely compare Joe D. and MM before moving one off.

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[Noexcuse]

As a player, no. He was never the best at his position. Based on achievements, yes. I would need to closely compare Joe D. and MM before moving one off.

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Damn, that's a tough one. Ruth and Gehrig for sure. Joe D over Mantle probably. Jeter over Mo, definitely in my mind. Thurm should get some consideration imo. And Yogi.

 

[jekelish]

I hate the Yanks but I don't see how it could be anyone but Ruth, Gehrig, Joe D and Mickey. That's got to be it.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

No Jeff Nelson?

 

[mountaincuse]

Mo is the best that has ever played his position and did so with nothing but pressure when he was in the game. I think he should be there.

Problem is, with a team like the Yankees you need a whole mountain range for the greats, not just four spaces.

 

[donniesyracuse]

This is as easy as it gets: Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle. All four of these guys were dominant for large portions of their careers. I love Jeter, but I'm not sure that he has ever been the best shortstop in the American League at any point in time. He is certainly a Yankee legend, but not on the level of these four; the same is true for Rivera.

 

[Toga]

Mantle had that electricity thing going. Every time he stepped to the plate. Before injuries took their toll, some say he was the fastest player from home to first in the history of the game. That from a guy with 500+ home runs when the only juicing he was doing involved vodka.

 

[EastCoast2]

Did everybody seriously forget about Hideki Irabu and Kei Igawa?

 

[Noexcuse]

It just occurred to me that Big Stein might belong up there too. He might even commission the building of the monument.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

It just occurred to me that Big Stein might belong up there too. He might even commission the building of the monument.

He'd want his head bigger than all the others.

 

[SWC75]

He'd want his head bigger than all the others.

He's want the other guys in his mouth.

 

[Ghost]

Agree with most everyone else, Mantle over Jeter by a pretty hefty margin. Jeter is super-consistent, but was he ever even the most feared player on the Yankees - at any point in his career? For even a day? As a Yankee fan I love him, but he's not what Mantle was.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Mantle had that electricity thing going. Every time he stepped to the plate. Before injuries took their toll, some say he was the fastest player from home to first in the history of the game. That from a guy with 500+ home runs when the only juicing he was doing involved vodka.

Mantle was the first Junior Griffey.

 

[Noexcuse]

Personal Yankee Rushmore: Yogi, Mantle, Thurm, Mattingly

 

[Knicks411]

Gotta be the big 4. Rivera and Jeter are great, but come on. Mantle, Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio. (Btw I hate the Yankees).

They pretty much had one of the 3 best players in the league for 45 years in a row. That's incredible.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Gotta be the big 4. Rivera and Jeter are great, but come on. Mantle, Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio. (Btw I hate the Yankees).

They pretty much had one of the 3 best players in the league for 45 years in a row. That's incredible.

I did a google search on which players have the most individual world series rings. Jeter and Mo didn't make the top 10 (who happen to all be Yankees, by the way ..).
Yogi, of course, leads the way with 10. If Jeter and Mo could get one more, they would have 7. Then the list starts parsing according to how many years it took the player, in order to get a final ranking. Interesting thing is that Ruth is the only player in the top 10 to have done it with more than just 1 team.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/leaders_most_rings.shtml

 

[Knicks411]

I did a google search on which players have the most individual world series rings. Jeter and Mo didn't make the top 10 (who happen to all be Yankees, by the way ..).
Yogi, of course, leads the way with 10. If Jeter and Mo could get one more, they would have 7.

Not that it matters, but Jeter and Rivera have 5 right now, not 6.
I guess i shouldn't be surprised that the list is all Yankees, but it is pretty amazing. Scary thing about Joe D is he A) missed the war years, and B) retired relatively early. They won the WS in 52 and 53; if he stuck around he could've gotten at least one more.

People talk about competitive balance now, the Yankees really did win every year with Joe D.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Not that it matters, but Jeter and Rivera have 5 right now, not 6.
I guess i shouldn't be surprised that the list is all Yankees, but it is pretty amazing. Scary thing about Joe D is he A) missed the war years, and B) retired relatively early. They won the WS in 52 and 53; if he stuck around he could've gotten at least one more.

People talk about competitive balance now, the Yankees really did win every year with Joe D.

You're right. Sorry about that. And it was right on the list. I guess I'm still not over Arizona in 2001.

 

[bevosu]

Mantle was a great player, and would have been greater if he avoided injuries and the night life.

But the dominate center fielder of his era was Willie Mays. Mays was a better baseball player.

Not that this has anything to do with the Yankee's Rushmore. Just felt that people, when they talk about Mantle, somehow forget about Mays.

 

[Knicks411]

Mantle was a great player, and would have been greater if he avoided injuries and the night life.

But the dominate center fielder of his era was Willie Mays. Mays was a better baseball player.

Not that this has anything to do with the Yankee's Rushmore. Just felt that people, when they talk about Mantle, somehow forget about Mays.

Mays has the advantage because of the durability; I think at their best the two were pretty damn close. Maybe slight edge to Mays. Obviously 2 of the best players ever.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Mantle was a great player, and would have been greater if he avoided injuries and the night life.

But the dominate center fielder of his era was Willie Mays. Mays was a better baseball player.

Not that this has anything to do with the Yankee's Rushmore. Just felt that people, when they talk about Mantle, somehow forget about Mays.

First, the word is "dominant". "Dominate" is a verb. I wouldn't ordinarily correct someone's post for grammar, but I've seen this mis-used a number of times lately, so I've got to say something.

As for Mantle vs. Mays, Mantle at his peak was better and put up better numbers. Mays was more consistent over his career, but he was more of a 40 / 40 guy. Mantle was the guy who would hit 50 homers and bat for a higher average. Mays beats out Mantle mostly on stolen bases. Mantle was never a big runner. Those Yankee teams didn't play small ball, remember.

But why don't we see for ourselves.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/166981/home-run-derby-mickey-mantle-vs-willie-mays

Mays never put together a .340 batting average and 45 HR’s in the same season. Mantle’s best effort was a hitter’s delight - .353 AVG, 132 R, 130 RBI, 52 HR.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Mays has the advantage because of the durability; I think at their best the two were pretty damn close. Maybe slight edge to Mays. Obviously 2 of the best players ever.

I agree that Mays, like Dimaggio, may have done certain subtle things like run the bases better than Mickey. Those are "Jeter Skills" and count for something, I agree. I can see people making the argument that Mays was better. He created some of the most memorable moments in baseball history. That catch over his shoulder in the WS was one of the top 5 plays ever. I can see why people would choose him.

 

[Knicks411]

I agree that Mays, like Dimaggio, may have done certain subtle things like run the bases better than Mickey. Those are "Jeter Skills" and count for something, I agree. I can see people making the argument that Mays was better. He created some of the most memorable moments in baseball history. That catch over his shoulder in the WS was one of the top 5 plays ever. I can see why people would choose him.

I'm sure Mays ran the bases better. Some of the stories you hear about him...

But he also did non subtle stuff better. Like play defense and stay in the lineup.

I wonder how many more bases Mays steals if he plays in a different era. In 1959 he lead the league with 27 steals. By OPS+, Mantle was clearly the better hitter, 172 to 156. (Though I think the consensus was the NL was a better league than the AL during their careers).

On a different level, this is kind of like the Shaq-Duncan debate I raised before, but not totally. I think Mantle at his peak was probably a better player than Mays, but Mays played 500 more games AND missed basically 2 years to the war. (As a random way to look at it, after Mantle turned 29 he played over 140 games 3 times, never more than 144. Mays did it 8 times, with 2 more at 136 and 139, and most of the 8 over 150).

It's possible Mantle was the most gifted player ever, if he had better injury luck and took care of himself better he might be the best player of all time. Instead he's something like one of the 10 best, which isn't so bad.

 

[Toga]

Freaking Home Run Derby. Great fun but even watching it as a kid I knew the production values were shall we say - lacking.

First, the word is "dominant". "Dominate" is a verb. I wouldn't ordinarily correct someone's post for grammar, but I've seen this mis-used a number of times lately, so I've got to say something.

As for Mantle vs. Mays, Mantle at his peak was better and put up better numbers. Mays was more consistent over his career, but he was more of a 40 / 40 guy. Mantle was the guy who would hit 50 homers and bat for a higher average. Mays beats out Mantle mostly on stolen bases. Mantle was never a big runner. Those Yankee teams didn't play small ball, remember.

But why don't we see for ourselves.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/166981/home-run-derby-mickey-mantle-vs-willie-mays

Mays never put together a .340 batting average and 45 HR’s in the same season. Mantle’s best effort was a hitter’s delight - .353 AVG, 132 R, 130 RBI, 52 HR.