"The Zone" is why we are in this mess...

[OrangeDW]

at least a switch to m2m makes accountability obvious. accountability comes from the top down, and there is none on this team and that starts with mr. boeheim. the staff go rickrolled by the Andrew white camp. it was a huge mistake and a huge embarrassment that out staff got hustled by this kid. he is a crap player, doesn't give a damn about being here, and has tanked our season and his own chances of being a pro.

 

[Jasoncuse]

I'd agree that White seems to be unfairly scapegoated on here. People make it seem like he's player/coach and designs all the plays for himself. I'm sure JB greenlights him because everyone else is afraid or can't dribble.

Agreed. White is a flawed player but a solid one. He's obviously not a good fit for the zone and I don't think he's out there not trying.

Any issues with this team are based on the lack of quality guards, the inability to play the zone and a lack of flexibility in recruiting and coaching. Blaming White or Gillon is placing the blame in the wrong hands.

 

[orangehomer]

What's the alternative? I don't care if I never see Frank Howard play another minute. May be the worst point guard in our history.

he's a sophomore, and when he was recruited it was meant to be a project at PG. so for me, I'm not willing to beat the hell out of the kid when he wasn't supposed to play this much this soon at this position. what I am willing to do, is beat on the 5th year kids that our staff brought and and handed the keys to the program to. white and gillon have stunk. they are older and made adult decisions to join this team. and they are terrible, and our staff fell for it.

 

[OrangeDW]

he's a sophomore, and when he was recruited it was meant to be a project at PG. so for me, I'm not willing to beat the hell out of the kid when he wasn't supposed to play this much this soon at this position. what I am willing to do, is beat on the 5th year kids that our staff brought and and handed the keys to the program to. white and gillon have stunk. they are older and made adult decisions to join this team. and they are terrible, and our staff fell for it.

If we didn't bring them in, we'd have 6 players right now.

 

[ssbriefcase]

I'd absolutely rather see Gillon try to defend one on one vs seeing his 5'5 self running out at shooters.

I hope he JB does go man, and just when you thought it couldn't get worse, it will. With no size or just a non athletic guy who can't move side to side, can you imagine watching White attempt karaoke drills? Thompson would get eaten alive in man too.

 

[orangehomer]

If we didn't bring them in, we'd have 6 players right now.

we couldn't have recruited freshman? or kept the other guys that we ran off? like I have said, mind-boggling roster management by this staff.

 

[longislandcuse]

I hope he JB does go man, and just when you thought it couldn't get worse, it will. With no size or just a non athletic guy who can't move side to side, can you imagine watching White attempt karaoke drills? Thompson would get eaten alive in man too.

Didn't White plan man at Nebraska? Why are people acting like this is some trendy new innovative defense that we're clamoring for?

 

[ssbriefcase]

Didn't White plan man at Nebraska? Why are people acting like this is some trendy new innovative defense that we're clamoring for?

How good was he? Didn't he play the 4 there? I'm not clamoring for it, you are. It would be worse, imo.

 

[Jasoncuse]

we couldn't have recruited freshman? or kept the other guys that we ran off? like I have said, mind-boggling roster management by this staff.

And that's not White or Gillon's fault. That's on the staff so why deride the two kids?

 

[Jasoncuse]

I hope he JB does go man, and just when you thought it couldn't get worse, it will. With no size or just a non athletic guy who can't move side to side, can you imagine watching White attempt karaoke drills? Thompson would get eaten alive in man too.

We're already getting eaten alive. I'm not sure how man could make it worse. We just allowed 93 and 96 to SJ and BC. Can't get much worse.

 

[OrangeDW]

we couldn't have recruited freshman? or kept the other guys that we ran off? like I have said, mind-boggling roster management by this staff.

Recruit freshmen in the summer before their freshman year? If roster management is your gripe, then blame the staff and drop the drama queen act towards players that haven't done anything wrong other than not play as well as you want them to.

 

[longislandcuse]

How good was he? Didn't he play the 4 there? I'm not clamoring for it, you are. It would be worse, imo.

I have no clue. I didn't even know who he was until this summer. He wants to play in the NBA (or pro somewhere), he better be able to defend the 3 because he's sure as hell not a 4.

If it is, so be it. This defense is so bad, giving up 90+ to bottom feeders that unless people start throwing 140 on us (which good teams might do to the zone) I'm not sure how anything could be worse.

 

[ssbriefcase]

I have no clue. I didn't even know who he was until this summer. He wants to play in the NBA (or pro somewhere), he better be able to defend the 3 because he's sure as hell not a 4.

If it is, so be it. This defense is so bad, giving up 90+ to bottom feeders that unless people start throwing 140 on us (which good teams might do to the zone) I'm not sure how anything could be worse.

It's January, you continue to practice and attempt to get better at zone. And White couldn't be on the bench for the Washington Generals, let alone ever sniff the league.

 

[longislandcuse]

It's January, you continue to practice and attempt to get better at zone. And White couldn't be on the bench for the Washington Generals, let alone ever sniff the league.

Honestly, my gripe is with the overall zone philosophy of this program more than screaming for m2m in a lost season. I fully expect us to suck at m2m because JB doesn't teach it.

I want our zone obsession to end with this season.

 

[OrangeDW]

Honestly, my gripe is with the overall zone philosophy of this program more than screaming for m2m in a lost season. I fully expect us to suck at m2m because JB doesn't teach it.

I want our zone obsession to end with this season.

It was a good 20 year run, but things change. That's the way it is.

 

[rrlbees]

we couldn't have recruited freshman? or kept the other guys that we ran off? like I have said, mind-boggling roster management by this staff.

Your timeline is off.

 

[Czar]

Bottom line: Kids are only going to get better and better at the 3 ball, and 2-3 zone as the primary set is going to be a worse and worse idea. It worked before when coaches didn't trust the 3 ball that much, and most players couldn't hit at a decent clip. But it's basically asking for trouble now. "Giving" teams the outside shot isn't good defense anymore.

 

[two3zone]

Bottom line: Kids are only going to get better and better at the 3 ball, and 2-3 zone as the primary set is going to be a worse and worse idea. It worked before when coaches didn't trust the 3 ball that much, and most players couldn't hit at a decent clip. But it's basically asking for trouble now. "Giving" teams the outside shot isn't good defense anymore.

This is it right here.

The game has evolved into a layup or 3 point shot. The zone destroys the mid-range game, but the mid-range game is almost extinct.

I love the zone and it can really screw the opponent up but I think it would be far better as a situational defense at this point.

 

[Czar]

This is it right here.

The game has evolved into a layup or 3 point shot. The zone destroys the mid-range game, but the mid-range game is almost extinct.

I love the zone and it can really screw the opponent up but I think it would be far better as a situational defense at this point.

Also to be frank, I think not using it as the primary set helps recruiting.

I think we'd have had a better shot at Noel a few years ago if we were a man team. Playing in a zone would have tanked his draft stock, since the only skill he'd get to show off is his help defense and weak side blocks for the most part.

 

[PoppyHart]

Also to be frank, I think not using it as the primary set helps recruiting.

I think we'd have had a better shot at Noel a few years ago if we were a man team. Playing in a zone would have tanked his draft stock, since the only skill he'd get to show off is his help defense and weak side blocks for the most part.

At the same time, if he chose SU, Noel probably would not have torn his ACL b/c JB would have yanked him after 2 minutes each game like he did with Fab, Xmas, and Coleman. So maybe his draft stock would have improved. :noidea:

 

[Czar]

At the same time, if he chose SU, Noel probably would not have torn his ACL b/c JB would have yanked him after 2 minutes each game like he did with Fab, Xmas, and Coleman. So maybe his draft stock would have improved. :noidea:

I do enjoy the mental picture of Noel, who went on to have a quasi DPOY worthy season as a rookie in the NBA, getting hooked for a mistake in the zone.

 

[orangecuse]

We're also 25-38 against Power 5, Big East and Gonzaga since our 25-0 start in 2014. I don't have the defensive numbers in those games but I'm guessing they're nowhere near top 20 nationally. The zone can work against nobodies but sure seems like something has gone amiss against bigger programs. Offensively and defensively, things have gone way down.

This stat really should be one that screams out..."danger Will Robinson!" As incredible and rather miraculous as that FF run was last year, it really does mask a quite larger underlining latent issue that really has reared its ugly head and festered this season.

 

[Scotch]

This is it right here.

The game has evolved into a layup or 3 point shot. The zone destroys the mid-range game, but the mid-range game is almost extinct.

I love the zone and it can really screw the opponent up but I think it would be far better as a situational defense at this point.

Over the past 10 years, whave consistently been one of the top teams in the country at defending the 3 according to KenPom. It's not the zone, it's this year's zone.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Didn't White plan man at Nebraska? Why are people acting like this is some trendy new innovative defense that we're clamoring for?

And recruited to play it at Kansas...

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Over the past 10 years, whave consistently been one of the top teams in the country at defending the 3 according to KenPom. It's not the zone, it's this year's zone.

Agreed, this year's zone is problematic. But, it's kinda like if the entire math class fails the quiz...

Stats, without specific context, are pretty much meaningless.
• Where did we finish in 3pt defense the last two years, when we were 10th in the ACC?
• Our 3pt defense was 28% before the BC game, yet we all agree we can't beat our way out of a wet paper bag.
• BC's 3pt defense was equal to ours before the BC game, yet they play mostly(?) m2m, with recruits far 'inferior' to ours.
• If the 3pt defense is indicative of quality 3pt defense, why does some scrub on a DII team always go off for a career best against us?
• What percentage of that percentage is racked up against our out-of-conference, at home cupcake schedule?
• If a team shoots 1 for 4 from 3, but can get layups at will because we have a skinny D-less freshman forward playing center, how valid is that 25% 3pt defense 'statistic?'
• Don't we have more talent than 90% of our opponents? Wouldn't you think they'd be able to defend—in any system—at 'top 25' levels?
• If you decide you're married to the zone, don't you have to account for the fact that if you recruit a McD player, he may not be here for 4 years? And that, if freshmen don't often play the zone well, there are going to be gaps in efficiency when a freshman is in the game? And if you have multiple freshmen/new players, there are going to be exponentially bigger gaps in efficiency? And if you play forwards at Center, there are going to be even bigger gaps in efficiency? This year is like the election—a perfect storm of FUBAR.
• "You can make statistics say anything" — Alfred Einstein!