This FBI case causes me to apologize to Jim Boeheim

[AZOrange]

Alsacs since you have a law background, care to explain how charges can be brought against the Miami and USC coaches? It seems a broad application of the law to me. The coaches work for private institutions. They offered money to a non official (player) of a government or company. While it is morally wrong and breaks NCAA rules, does it really legally break the law?

Not Alsacs but my understanding is paying recruits was not what the assts are charged with. The asst scheme was to accept cash bribes to direct players to agents.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Not Alsacs but my understanding is paying recruits was not what the assts are charged with. The asst scheme was to accept cash bribes to direct players to agents.

Ok and that breaks what law? Ultimately the kid chooses an agent. A coach advertising an agent is illegal?

 

[reedny]

Not Alsacs but my understanding is paying recruits was not what the assts are charged with. The asst scheme was to accept cash bribes to direct players to agents.

It's paying athletes too ... coaches have to sign compliance statements every year that they haven't given benefits to players, etc.. That's why the compliance statements were referenced in the complaint(s).

 

[SWC75]

I don't doubt that there is a certain amount of payola going on. I also don't doubt that some of our recruiting misses over the last several years may have had to do with payola.

However, I still have to believe that payola is more the exception than the rule.

It does not explain why our recruiting has been below par the last several seasons. Seems we are rebounding now. Staff seems to be going back to what they do best, ie, identify and wrapping up early some of the under the radar kids. Of course, getting Bazley was a huge positive.

I am very optimistic that program is uptrending now.

There must be something that would explain our sub-par recruiting the last few seasons. What could it possibly be?

 

[HRE Otto IV]

It's paying athletes too ... coaches have to sign compliance statements every year that they haven't given benefits to players, etc.. That's why the compliance statements were referenced in the complaint(s).

That violates NCAA rules but how does that break federal law?

Schools are bribing kids with $50k a year scholarships. Why is cash on top of that legally wrong?

I don't get the wire fraud charges either. What is fraudulent about paying someone?

 

[Frozen]

That violates NCAA rules but how does that break federal law?

Schools are bribing kids with $50k a year scholarships. Why is cash on top of that legally wrong?

I don't get the wire fraud charges either. What is fraudulent about paying someone?

Bribing, not paying.

 

[reedny]

That violates NCAA rules but how does that break federal law?

Schools are bribing kids with $50k a year scholarships. Why is cash on top of that legally wrong?

I don't get the wire fraud charges either. What is fraudulent about paying someone?

Everything in the scheme gets dragged in. They'll argue that filing the false instrument (compliance statement) and paying amateur athletes was done in furtherance of the conspiracy to commit wire fraud.

 

[themorey]

I am not afraid to say when I am wrong.

Your avatar makes me rethink my position on JAB as well. From that picture I worry he might be senile and think it may be time for him to go.

j/k...about him going.

 

[Millhouse]

You haven't been worth it so far.

Dasher wants benefits

 

[AZOrange]

It's paying athletes too ... coaches have to sign compliance statements every year that they haven't given benefits to players, etc.. That's why the compliance statements were referenced in the complaint(s).

I think the player pay stuff was related to the adidas fraud charges?

The FBI had some charts that showed the charges and various schemes

 

[Alsacs]

Alsacs since you have a law background, care to explain how charges can be brought against the Miami and USC coaches? It seems a broad application of the law to me. The coaches work for private institutions. They offered money to a non official (player) of a government or company. While it is morally wrong and breaks NCAA rules, does it really legally break the law?

What these coaches are charged with is accepting money from agents to act as coyotes to send NBA prospects to their agencies.

If all the charges were about were shoe companies paying recruits as 3rd party agents it wouldn't be a federal case it would be an NCAA case.
However these agencies paying the assistants for directing players to them is wire fraud.

 

[reedny]

I think the player pay stuff was related to the adidas fraud charges?

The FBI had some charts that showed the charges and various schemes

In the complaint (Vourderis) I read, there was a conspiracy count, several wire fraud counts and at least one money laundering count. All of the activities -- illegal payments, false statements, etc.. -- are roped in as affirmative acts and parts of the scheme. As you know, these are statutes with wide latitude. I'm surprised they didn't use RICO.

 

[Delmar]

There are tax fraud implications for all this money, too.

 

[SUGIANT]

Dasher pays me to be his friend.

How much I need a friend?

 

[HRE Otto IV]

What these coaches are charged with is accepting money from agents to act as coyotes to send NBA prospects to their agencies.

If all the charges were about were shoe companies paying recruits as 3rd party agents it wouldn't be a federal case it would be an NCAA case.
However these agencies paying the assistants for directing players to them is wire fraud.

That seems like a very weak case to me. Especially for the USC and Miami guys. Paying someone at a private institution to promote you to someone else that is affiliated with said private institution is illegal? That is called business to most people. How is that in violation of the law? The kid still had freedom of choice to pick a different agent.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Everything in the scheme gets dragged in. They'll argue that filing the false instrument (compliance statement) and paying amateur athletes was done in furtherance of the conspiracy to commit wire fraud.

In order to prove wire fraud you need to first prove that something illegal has happened. What they did violated NCAA rules. How did it violate federal law?

 

[Frozen]

In order to prove wire fraud you need to first prove that something illegal has happened. What they did violated NCAA rules. How did it violate federal law?

U.S. Code › Title 18 › Part I › Chapter 63 › § 1343
Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If the violation occurs in relation to, or involving any benefit authorized, transported, transmitted, transferred, disbursed, or paid in connection with, a presidentially declared major disaster or emergency (as those terms are defined in section 102 of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act (42 U.S.C. 5122)), or affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.

 

[Alsacs]

That seems like a very weak case to me. Especially for the USC and Miami guys. Paying someone at a private institution to promote you to someone else that is affiliated with said private institution is illegal? That is called business to most people. How is that in violation of the law? The kid still had freedom of choice to pick a different agent.

When you work each year you get a W-2.
That is income that is taxed each year.
If these coaches were taking tens of
Thousands of dollars that wasn't taxed that is fraud.

The federal government wants every dollar that it is owed. These coaches are going to be squeezed to go after the real companies( sports agencies) that are funneling money off the books.

This case is all about Uncle Sam getting its cut.

 

[reedny]

U.S. Code › Title 18 › Part I › Chapter 63 › § 1343
Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If the violation occurs in relation to, or involving any benefit authorized, transported, transmitted, transferred, disbursed, or paid in connection with, a presidentially declared major disaster or emergency (as those terms are defined in section 102 of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act (42 U.S.C. 5122)), or affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.

thank you. saved me the time.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

thank you. saved me the time.

That didn't answer anything because my point was WHERE IS THE FRAUD? As Alsacs pointed out, it is most likely tax fraud. Had the coaches included the payments as consulting income they would have gotten off free. The paying of players or taking money from agents or NCAA compliance in of itself is not fraudulent.

 

[Alsacs]

That didn't answer anything because my point was WHERE IS THE FRAUD? As Alsacs pointed out, it is most likely tax fraud. Had the coaches included the payments as consulting income they would have gotten off free. The paying of players or taking money from agents or NCAA compliance in of itself is not fraudulent.

To add to this if the coaches added this income then their schools compliance office would question where this money came from.

As all coaches must make their income available to their schools compliance officers.

Thus the coaches would have had to lie and unless they had a good compliance office it would have gone away.

I know one of the SU compliance officers and she vetts the football coaches income.

 

[reedny]

That didn't answer anything because my point was WHERE IS THE FRAUD? As Alsacs pointed out, it is most likely tax fraud. Had the coaches included the payments as consulting income they would have gotten off free. The paying of players or taking money from agents or NCAA compliance in of itself is not fraudulent.

Otto, these coaches are employees of NFP universities that are signatories to a NFP amateur athletics association. The Universities have lucrative conference contracts, media deals, shoe endorsements, etc., but they are also charitable/educational institutions receiving tax exemptions courtesy of you and me. They benefit from the use of public airwaves. They receive federal funds. And they participate in interstate commerce. In exchange for these benefits, Universities are governed by Title IX (among others). They have to abide by NCAA guidelines, file annual compliance statements with the NCAA and make financial disclosures about receipts and expenditures to the US DOE. They have to ensure that their employees and students abide by NCAA rules. While you are correct that third party (for profit) vendors may not share the same obligations, they are publicly-traded companies that have their own financial, regulatory and tax requirements. And their relationships with NCAA member schools are dependent on the amateur model. This isn't government overreach ... the public has an interest in seeing that vendors in contact with coaches and student athletes avoid fraud, make truthful disclosures and, if required, pay their fair share of taxes. Sports company executives also have to account to their shareholders (not to mention the IRS and SEC) for money they expend. For a recruit and his family, its criminal to claim you made $50,000 when you're hiding a $150,000 payment you received from a basketball school. For a recruiter, it's likely a crime to lie on a document you file with the NCAA if you're hiding payments you made to a player to benefit a vendor that pays you off in secret (to say nothing of all the NCAA rules violations). It's also fraudulent to accept cash to "steer" amateur athletes to certain schools (or shoes) in exchange for personal or institutional gain. You may scoff. But I can guarantee the defendants and their lawyers are taking the charges seriously, along with the rest of the college sports world.

 

[AZOrange]

In the complaint (Vourderis) I read, there was a conspiracy count, several wire fraud counts and at least one money laundering count. All of the activities -- illegal payments, false statements, etc.. -- are roped in as affirmative acts and parts of the scheme. As you know, these are statutes with wide latitude. I'm surprised they didn't use RICO.

Agreed on rICO. I guess my point was that there are two distinct sets of charges: first against the coaches and then against the corporate dudes.

 

[Dave85]

Suddenly, Syracuse, UConn and others couldn't recruit a top 10 player. Yes, this year we got Bazley, but he was about #50 when we got him. Arizona and USC hitting on the recruiting trail. And Oregon.

I've suspected money under the table for a long time now. I just can't believe Duke and UK are not somehow involved given the number of 5-stars they get every year. And Kansas too. Who would ever want to go to Kansas? I would rather watch corn grow than live in Kansas.

 

[Alsacs]

The coaches can make income outside of coaching but they must disclose it.

I.e camps, speaking fees, appearance fees, other places. These assistants obviously didn't disclose these payoffs they were getting and I am betting it was a good sized amount of incomes in the tens thousands of range.