This graphic from KenPom just shows how much we need more offense | Syracusefan.com

This graphic from KenPom just shows how much we need more offense

Alsacs

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JB really needs to scrap this current offensive philosophy he has. It needs to be redone. Our D is elite but you can't win a NC without a decent offense.

Our offense since 2012 has been very poor. We have the defensive talent/system but we need more than 3 players who can score on the floor. We can't play 3 on 5 offensively and win a NC.
 
Yeah, you tell him that.. How about getting players. That would change the graphic.
 
CeD-JWkUkAAYwh9.jpg


JB really needs to scrap this current offensive philosophy he has. It needs to be redone. Our D is elite but you can't win a NC without a decent offense.

Our offense since 2012 has been very poor. We have the defensive talent/system but we need more than 3 players who can score on the floor. We can't play 3 on 5 offensively and win a NC.


I really think that posts like this miss the mark. I also don't think that most posters understand our offensive system--or even the plays we run--to be honest--to adequately critique what's happening out there. With improved point guard play and a bit more offensive firepower, the system would be fine.

Without those components, the system is a bit anemic--just as any offensive system would be with those semi-deficiencies. When you have guys who can score, the offense doesn't bog down. When you don't, scoring in half court offensive sets is a struggle. It's as simple as that.

Not attacking your viewpoint, Alsacs, I just happen to believe that you're barking up the wrong tree with this observation [which you have repeated often in the past several weeks]. In actuality, we're not that far off from being a pretty good offensive team. We're too reliant on the three, don't have balance with consistent inside scoring, and have pedestrian lead guard play. Gbinije is miscast as a 1; he's a superlative scorer.
 
The offense that has worked for decades, literally, needs to be scrapped. Okay.
 
How often are we really playing 3 on 5 this year? Really only when Coleman and Roberson are playing together (and I think Tyler is a little bit of a stretch, I think he's a fine role player on offense). Cooney, for all his warts, can shoot the ball decently. I agree with RF, Mike would have been amazing, even better than he was, if he didn't need to handle the ball so much.

Honestly, the reliance on the 3 doesn't bother me all that much; you can take lots of 3's and still have a really good offense. I would definitely like to have more of a low post threat though. I think we'll get some more of that out of Lydon next year (especially when he's being guarded by more 3's and 4's)

In 2013 and 14 we were around top 35 in offense (52 right now). That's fine, but if you want to be a true national title contender you generally need around the top 10. (Top 10 in 2010 and 12, #14 in 2003).

One thing I was just wondering even before reading this thread; I do wonder a little what the rotations are going to look like next year (WHY ARE WE TALKING ABOUT NEXT YEAR RIGHT NOW??). I'm assuming Chukwu has no game outside the paint (correct me if I'm wrong), I wonder if you want to spend a lot of minutes with him and Roberson, who at least right now doesn't have a lot of an outside game either. This is all a long way of saying I wonder if Roberson's minutes may be limited next year.
 
if you have bigs who can score then your efficiency goes up. if you can create easy baskets with your D it does too. MTSU did they suddenly run different plays after friday night? its a stupid stat does little to actually show who runs a good offense. UNC runs almost no offense and shoots poorly but the bigs score even when covered and then can rebound.
 
RF2044 said:
I really think that posts like this miss the mark. I also don't think that most posters understand our offensive system--or even the plays we run--to be honest--to adequately critique what's happening out there. With improved point guard play and a bit more offensive firepower, the system would be fine. Without those components, the system is a bit anemic--just as any offensive system would be with those semi-deficiencies. When you have guys who can score, the offense doesn't bog down. When you don't, scoring in half court offensive sets is a struggle. It's as simple as that. Not attacking your viewpoint, Alsacs, I just happen to believe that you're barking up the wrong tree with this observation [which you have repeated often in the past several weeks]. In actuality, we're not that far off from being a pretty good offensive team. We're too reliant on the three, don't have balance with consistent inside scoring, and have pedestrian lead guard play. Gbinije is miscast as a 1; he's a superlative scorer.

Good points. Just adding Bryant would have bumped us over to the green. Our offense is at its best when we have a big who is a bigger threat down low AND shooting AND guys able to get in the lane and find people (PG usually, but both guards would be even better).

G is awesome and Cooney is Cooney - but those guys are not great passers. That's why Franklin's looked like a revelation at times just making good passes.
 
... With improved point guard play and a bit more offensive firepower, the system would be fine.

... When you have guys who can score, the offense doesn't bog down. When you don't, scoring in half court offensive sets is a struggle. It's as simple as that.

...we're not that far off from being a pretty good offensive team. We're too reliant on the three, don't have balance with consistent inside scoring, and have pedestrian lead guard play. Gbinije is miscast as a 1; he's a superlative scorer.

With "consistent inside scoring" and "guys who can score" -- there you go. Obvious.

Our problem has never been Gbinije (despite your frequent mantra about a true point guard). Give him some better help at the 2G, and better inside scoring, and this team would be top 10. There are a lot of teams that would love to have Gbinije as their lead guard
 
... With improved point guard play and a bit more offensive firepower, the system would be fine.

... When you have guys who can score, the offense doesn't bog down. When you don't, scoring in half court offensive sets is a struggle. It's as simple as that.

...we're not that far off from being a pretty good offensive team. We're too reliant on the three, don't have balance with consistent inside scoring, and have pedestrian lead guard play. Gbinije is miscast as a 1; he's a superlative scorer.

With "consistent inside scoring" and "guys who can score" -- there you go. Obvious.

Our problem has never been Gbinije (despite your frequent mantra about a true point guard). Give him some better help at the 2G, and better inside scoring, and this team would be top 10. There are a lot of teams that would love to have Gbinije as their lead guard
 
The offense that has worked for decades, literally, needs to be scrapped. Okay.

Our defense has just been so good that it's masked our offensive troubles. We've had some great offenses though, I don't even think this years has been that bad, it does go hot and cold but overall it's not bad.
 
With "consistent inside scoring" and "guys who can score" -- there you go. Obvious.

Our problem has never been Gbinije (despite your frequent mantra about a true point guard). Give him some better help at the 2G, and better inside scoring, and this team would be top 10. There are a lot of teams that would love to have Gbinije as their lead guard

College basketball is guard driven. Having a superior lead guard pays huge dividends, and can be an enormous advantage--so much so that it can't be overstated.

This point is apparently lost upon you. Nobody said that Gbinije is a "problem," just that he's playing out of position. Which he is. His talents would be better utilized at the 2 or 3, which is readily obvious--but on this team, he's required to man the 1. And he's done a more than adequate job, just not a "superior" one, because he isn't a superior lead guard who makes his teammates better as a function of his game management / passing. He's a superior scorer, with versatility. Hats off to him for being able to thrive despite playing out of position.
 
... With improved point guard play and a bit more offensive firepower, the system would be fine.

... When you have guys who can score, the offense doesn't bog down. When you don't, scoring in half court offensive sets is a struggle. It's as simple as that.

...we're not that far off from being a pretty good offensive team. We're too reliant on the three, don't have balance with consistent inside scoring, and have pedestrian lead guard play. Gbinije is miscast as a 1; he's a superlative scorer.

With "consistent inside scoring" and "guys who can score" -- there you go. Obvious.

Our problem has never been Gbinije (despite your frequent mantra about a true point guard). Give him some better help at the 2G, and better inside scoring, and this team would be top 10. There are a lot of teams that would love to have Gbinije as their lead guard
 
... With improved point guard play and a bit more offensive firepower, the system would be fine.

... When you have guys who can score, the offense doesn't bog down. When you don't, scoring in half court offensive sets is a struggle. It's as simple as that.

...we're not that far off from being a pretty good offensive team. We're too reliant on the three, don't have balance with consistent inside scoring, and have pedestrian lead guard play. Gbinije is miscast as a 1; he's a superlative scorer.

With "consistent inside scoring" and "guys who can score" -- there you go. Obvious.

Our problem has never been Gbinije (despite your frequent mantra about a true point guard). Give him some better help at the 2G, and better inside scoring, and this team would be top 10. There are a lot of teams that would love to have Gbinije as their lead guard
 
If the system was good the players we have would be able to execute in the system. Our offensive system should not struggle 4 years in a row.
The PG position was fine with MCW and Ennis in 2013 and 2014 and the offense was sub-par both of those years.
Last year we had Rakeem Christmas an elite post player and our offense was bad.
This year we have G and another sub=par offensive year.
I am sure this offense would work if you had
MCW 2013
G 2016
Fair 2013
Southerland 2013
Christmas 2015

but getting that all in one year is tough. Our system is to rely on a penetration and outside shooting.
Our D is elite but our offense is sub-pa and if we had a better offense we really could win it all this year.
 
By what definition was the offense sub-par in 2013 and 2014?
We were 60th in points per possession in 2013.
We were 46th in points per possession in 2014.
We were 188th in points per possession in 2015.
We were 113th in points per possession this year.

I think those numbers in 2013 and 2014 were inflated a little by our dominant numbers in non-conference season. As they were top 10 thru January and nose dived in Jan thru March.

Our offense is 2012 was 11th in points per possession. That was a dominant team and balanced team.

My numbers are from KenPom offensive efficiency rankings.

Our offense in conference play and onward since 2012 has been poor. The 2013 defense was unworldly good and it got us to the Final Four. If we had 1 more offensive weapons we could have won the NC i.e. if Waiters was a Junior we likely cut down the nets.

2014 our numbers for efficiency were number 1 in the nation thru January 1st and fell all the way to 46th. We nose dived in conference play. We played low possession games as well which inflated our efficiency percentages.

The last 2 years our offense has just been mediocre.
 
If the system was good the players we have would be able to execute in the system. Our offensive system should not struggle 4 years in a row.
The PG position was fine with MCW and Ennis in 2013 and 2014 and the offense was sub-par both of those years.
Last year we had Rakeem Christmas an elite post player and our offense was bad.
This year we have G and another sub=par offensive year.
I am sure this offense would work if you had
MCW 2013
G 2016
Fair 2013
Southerland 2013
Christmas 2015

but getting that all in one year is tough. Our system is to rely on a penetration and outside shooting.
Our D is elite but our offense is sub-pa and if we had a better offense we really could win it all this year.

The offense wasn't "fine" between 2013 - 2015 primarily due to guard struggles.

In 2013, MCW was a good passer, but was offensively challenged, and that team went through lengthy stretches of the season where they collectively struggled to put the ball in the hoop. Part of that was due to inconsistency [Southerland], part of it was due to poorly subpar three point shooting from both MCW / Triche [who regressed to something like 29% as a senior]. But that team was anemic offensively, and just happened to get hot at the right time of year, with our guards suddenly taking it up a notch offensively.

2014 -- don't get me started. Ennis's greatest strengths was in avoiding turnovers. I'm a big fan of Ennis--he was a solid player [good scorer, nice passer, decent three point shooter, very good innate feel for the game]. But objectively speaking, he had holes in many other facets of his game, including pushing the ball in transition, which might have helped that scoring challenged squad get a few more easy buckets. And the slowdown pace that he employed took its toll on our players, enabling lesser teams to hang around. It also didn't help matters that like Triche the previous year, leading scorer CJ Fair plummeted to something like 29% from three point range, a precipitous decline from the previous year, when he shot nearly 50% from trifecta.

It is revisionist history to suggest that the point guard play was "fine" either of those years, or in 2015.

In 2015, we had Rakim Christmas as you point out, who had an all american type of year. We had Gbinije finally coming into his own as a scorer after beginning the season on the bench. But let's look at the guards: we had the usual inconsistency from Cooney, and got virtually NOTHING from starting point Joseph and only marginal contributions from McCullough [for a month] and Roberson. In many games last year, we couldn't throw the ball into the ocean. There were sporadic occasions where Joseph was a difference maker [namely, the Villanova and Michigan road games], but by and large he was a non-factor.

The issues the last three years have been personnel based. All three years, it has been a combination of generally subpar PG play to varying levels, and generally poor three point shooting.

We need a point guard who can handle pressure, break things down off the dribble when our half court offensive sets bog down, get into the lane to create easy scoring opportunities, and create for both himself and his teammates off of the bounce. This year's squad does not have that type of player. As terrific as G has been, he's limited as a point. Howard MIGHT develop into that player [I like what I'm seeing this last quarter of the season].

Improve the situation at point guard, and many of the other issues--which are symptoms of the problem, not the actual problem itself--will improve.
 
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Ok, I usually use the adjusted numbers. 2013 was 29th and 2014 was 37th, I don't consider those really sub-par. (I guess they played a really tough schedule in 2013?) Just curious about the numbers, I don't disagree with the main point really.
 
Our offense was pretty good in 2013 IMO (29th in Kenpom), the one area we struggled was 3pt shooting outside of Southerland, that was mainly because MCW and Triche weren't good 3pt shooters, but they made up for it in going to the basket and in the mid range game with Triche.

In 2014 we just had one outside 3pt shooter in Cooney who was hot and cold, so again a lack of outside shooting hurt us.

Last year we legit played 3 on 5 a lot (Xmas,Cooney, G), it was a bad year...etc.

This year, the lack of a pg hurts us. Cooney and Mal would both be more efficient if they had a pg getting them the ball in catch and shoot scenarios. There's a lot of the time they are open for shots and G just doesn't see them, often because he is looking for his own shot, but again he's a 2.

Gbinije is our best player, but he himself would be helped if he had a pg distributing to him. Besides Cooney and Mal's inconsistencies this year, the biggest issue with this team has been turnovers. Really the last 2 years that has been an issue, and it's because we don't have a guy (like Ennis) who can get us into our offense, calm the team down, and value the possession. When Gbinije, Cooney, or Mal have the ball they are all looking to shoot first. There is no pass first guy on this team, besides Howard, and when he's played this year, he himself has turned it over too much.
 
CeD-JWkUkAAYwh9.jpg


JB really needs to scrap this current offensive philosophy he has. It needs to be redone. Our D is elite but you can't win a NC without a decent offense.

Our offense since 2012 has been very poor. We have the defensive talent/system but we need more than 3 players who can score on the floor. We can't play 3 on 5 offensively and win a NC.

By the way I saw your post about the SFA game, and they run the Pin wheel offense. It's a good offense to run if you lack a true PG.
 
By the way I saw your post about the SFA game, and they run the Pin wheel offense. It's a good offense to run if you lack a true PG.

With better players and guards we should see an improvement. Even if Chukwu can be serviceable with an occasional post move then we should be fine. Guard play will be better soon, imo.

My problem with this Pin wheel offense is that it is essentially stall ball. So much time (and energy) running and looping around like a bunch of chickens with their heads cut off. Then the shot clock runs down and we jack a bad shot. Lately we have been hitting those. I think this slop also helps teams get back into these games like what has happening the last few weeks of the season. It really is stall ball when you think about it. Playing with fire but that's who we are the past few seasons. LGO.
 
By the way I saw your post about the SFA game, and they run the Pin wheel offense. It's a good offense to run if you lack a true PG.
I wish we did it was a fun system to watch. Gbinije could totally do what Walkup does.
 

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