This season was all about confirmation bias

[TheCusian]

While this is true, then wouldn't you need to factor in kick/punt returns, and turnovers as well? That impacts starting field position too. Just playing devil's advocate a bit, but I think it's best to include it all rather than rationalize why some should count while other's don't.

Right. There are lot of imperfect ways to measure offense - that's why yards per play and points per possession are good ones. But they don't tell the whole story either.

But in OT it's "extra yards and extra points" that don't work when comparing. It's more fair to compare like things and then extrapolate from there.

Example: Since Babers scored more points in regulation vs FBS teams, If he had 3 added OT possessions in scoring position, would he score more or less than Shafer's 2015 team? I think from the regulation output you can say he'd at least score the same amount of points.

 

[elimunelson]

at the end of the day, i give the entire staff a pass. Implementation is difficult. Next year is a completely different story. Dino will have more of his guys in the program, his staff will be better, etc.

I hate to be a guy who puts a record out there as the barometer but if we aren't bowling next year, the excuses from this end cease. BC proved to me that a bad team (not mediocre) should be able to bowl.

 

[TheCusian]

at the end of the day, i give the entire staff a pass. Implementation is difficult. Next year is a completely different story. Dino will have more of his guys in the program, his staff will be better, etc.

I hate to be a guy who puts a record out there as the barometer but if we aren't bowling next year, the excuses from this end cease. BC proved to me that a bad team (not mediocre) should be able to bowl.

They proved that you can schedule yourself into a bowl with a bad team. Our schedule is set, so?

 

[721Comstock]

They proved that you can schedule yourself into a bowl with a bad team. Our schedule is set, so?

We have been scheduling ourselves OUT of bowls for decades now. Oh Lord
And have another similar schedule lined up for '17. :bang::bang::bang:

Meanwhile, peer teams like BC, NC State, Duke, and Rutgers have been playing laughably easy OOC schedules for years, then laughing all the way to the bank when their 4-0 starts lead them to only needing 2 more conf wins to lock down a bowl bid.

Bowl/no-bowl is not a remotely accurate barometer for how a team has performed in a given season.

 

[SUFaninNJ]

Right. There are lot of imperfect ways to measure offense - that's why yards per play and points per possession are good ones. But they don't tell the whole story either.

But in OT it's "extra yards and extra points" that don't work when comparing. It's more fair to compare like things and then extrapolate from there.

Example: Since Babers scored more points in regulation vs FBS teams, If he had 3 added OT possessions in scoring position, would he score more or less than Shafer's 2015 team? I think from the regulation output you can say he'd at least score the same amount of points.

Agree to disagree.

 

[Pyle]

you know darn well that if shafer's defense gave up more scores simply because of overtime, they'd see the point of this argument

Ya know what blows up your argument a little bit? You can call it tempo all you want but the fact is...We were down to UL 21-0 after 3 possessions. Do you realize that in UL's first 7 plays from scrimmage they had scored 4 TDs and gained 292 yds. I don't give a flying rats behind how much time transpired between those possessions. Because they scored on all of them, pretty much on 1 or 2 plays. That's worse defense in anyone's book. Let me ask you this. During that last record breaking game, during the 4th quarter did you actually think we were in the game? I didn't. The reason I didn't is that I had zero faith that our defense could stop Pitt. Absolutely none. And it wasn't just UL. We had no answer for UL, ND, Clemons, FSU, Pitt. We gave up 45+ points 6 times this year. It wasn't just because of tempo. I don't want Shafer back but at the same time it's not ok to give Dino a pass on this defense. They were flat out horrible. Like Grob's offense horrible. Based on what I saw in the Pitt game there wasn't alot of progression out of the group this year either.

 

[Millhouse]

Ya know what blows up your argument a little bit? You can call it tempo all you want but the fact is...We were down to UL 21-0 after 3 possessions. Do you realize that in UL's first 7 plays from scrimmage they had scored 4 TDs and gained 292 yds. I don't give a flying rats behind how much time transpired between those possessions. Because they scored on all of them, pretty much on 1 or 2 plays. That's worse defense in anyone's book. Let me ask you this. During that last record breaking game, during the 4th quarter did you actually think we were in the game? I didn't. The reason I didn't is that I had zero faith that our defense could stop Pitt. Absolutely none. And it wasn't just UL. We had no answer for UL, ND, Clemons, FSU, Pitt. We gave up 45+ points 6 times this year. It wasn't just because of tempo. I don't want Shafer back but at the same time it's not ok to give Dino a pass on this defense. They were flat out horrible. Like Grob's offense horrible. Based on what I saw in the Pitt game there wasn't alot of progression out of the group this year either.

who are you arguing with? of course the defense was terrible.

 

[Pyle]

Without going through a bunch of posts, aren't you the one that is arguing that our defense gave up so many points based on Dino's tempo being faster and leading to more plays/possessions per game? If not my apologies to you, and to the person who was arguing that point I say tempo had very little to do with WRs being wide open down the middle of the field, over and over and over again.

 

[baggerbob]

I don't think it should matter if points were scored in regulation or OT. The points still count. All of the statistics still count too. If they weren't supposed to be counted, then we might as well go back to having ties.

The 47 points against that Rhode Island team, which was the one of the 5 worst teams we have played in the last 20+ years, makes last years stats look a lot better then they were. The 64 net yards also made the defense look better then it was.

 

[Orijinal]

if you don't care about overtime or regulation, one way to improve the offense is to go to overtime?

you're not alone but this is really one of the goofiest things on the board in a while.

Even with the 20 points in OT in 2015, the 2016 offense still outscored the 2015 offense.

Guys. Were the Post Standard stats wrong? If they were, which I wouldn't be surprised, then fine. But the figures stated that more points were scored in 2015 than 2016. Is this wrong? If not, then you can talk about regulation all you want, but the facts remain that more points were scored in 2015 than 2016.

And to another point: had Shafer given up more points in 2015 compared to Dino's defense in 2016 (due to Shafer's extra overtime periods), then I would assuredly state that Shafer gave up more points than Dino--without any caveats.

I absolutely give you the fact (as I have already stated earlier) that based on other factors, like yards per play/game, that we have a rosier offensive outlook in 2017 with Dino than we probably would have with Shafer.

 

[Moontan]

The 47 points against that Rhode Island team, which was the one of the 5 worst teams we have played in the last 20+ years, makes last years stats look a lot better then they were.

That's only 31 points for the offense vs. URI. DFB's offense matched that 4 times this year.

 

[Moontan]

Guys. Were the Post Standard stats wrong? If they were, which I wouldn't be surprised, then fine. But the figures stated that more points were scored in 2015 than 2016. Is this wrong? If not, then you can talk about regulation all you want, but the facts remain that more points were scored in 2015 than 2016.

And to another point: had Shafer given up more points in 2015 compared to Dino's defense in 2016 (due to Shafer's extra overtime periods), then I would assuredly state that Shafer gave up more points than Dino--without any caveats.

I absolutely give you the fact (as I have already stated earlier) that based on other factors, like yards per play/game, that we have a rosier offensive outlook in 2017 with Dino than we probably would have with Shafer.

Your original post made a claim about "Shafer's offense". I showed, above, that that wasn't accurate.

 

[KaiserUEO]

Yeah i'll be honest i had no idea how to end that post.

it needs to be 1 word that packs a wallup.

sometimes you have to hope things go your way and to work at it for it to really land.

like...


GLORIOUS

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Ya know what blows up your argument a little bit? You can call it tempo all you want but the fact is...We were down to UL 21-0 after 3 possessions. Do you realize that in UL's first 7 plays from scrimmage they had scored 4 TDs and gained 292 yds. I don't give a flying rats behind how much time transpired between those possessions. Because they scored on all of them, pretty much on 1 or 2 plays. That's worse defense in anyone's book. Let me ask you this. During that last record breaking game, during the 4th quarter did you actually think we were in the game? I didn't. The reason I didn't is that I had zero faith that our defense could stop Pitt. Absolutely none. And it wasn't just UL. We had no answer for UL, ND, Clemons, FSU, Pitt. We gave up 45+ points 6 times this year. It wasn't just because of tempo. I don't want Shafer back but at the same time it's not ok to give Dino a pass on this defense. They were flat out horrible. Like Grob's offense horrible. Based on what I saw in the Pitt game there wasn't alot of progression out of the group this year either.

I would rather have no hope in my defense than no hope in my offense.

We've done the no hope offense thing. We sucked and pissed away our Dome advantage going that way.

All chips in offense. Get whatever the defense does. It will be a winning formula for us and people will have a lot more fun.

 

[Pyle]

I would rather have no hope in my defense than no hope in my offense.

We've done the no hope offense thing. We sucked and pissed away our Dome advantage going that way.

All chips in offense. Get whatever the defense does. It will be a winning formula for us and people will have a lot more fun.

Wrong, just expect more Pitt type games. At least with a decent defense you can actually stop the other team from scoring and hope for a defensive or ST score. You can get a turnover at their end and kick a FG, something, anything to chip away. If your defense can't stop them at all then you can score on offense, defense, or ST and are still going to end up losing. You need both, well all 3 really. To think otherwise is foolish and futile. I'm not saying we need to be Bama or OSU good on defense, i'd be happy being average on defense with a great offense. The problem is that we are really really far away from being an average defense. 45+ points in half our games this year. Go watch the Pitt game again, when you're done, then again, and again, and again, until you realize that it didn't matter if we kept scoring because we couldn't stop them. We gave up 70+ points to PITT!!!!! Let that marinate for a while and let's talk again. I wasn't excited by that game either, everytime I watched Pitt score it was just more deflating knowing that we couldn't catch them.

 

[Millhouse]

Guys. Were the Post Standard stats wrong? If they were, which I wouldn't be surprised, then fine. But the figures stated that more points were scored in 2015 than 2016. Is this wrong? If not, then you can talk about regulation all you want, but the facts remain that more points were scored in 2015 than 2016.

And to another point: had Shafer given up more points in 2015 compared to Dino's defense in 2016 (due to Shafer's extra overtime periods), then I would assuredly state that Shafer gave up more points than Dino--without any caveats.

I absolutely give you the fact (as I have already stated earlier) that based on other factors, like yards per play/game, that we have a rosier offensive outlook in 2017 with Dino than we probably would have with Shafer.

this is so dumb

if you want to say that shafer's defense was better at scoring points than babers - go for it!

 

[Millhouse]

i love the unfrozen cavemen lawyers here

offense vs defense, regulation vs overtime ... it confuses and frightens me

but what i do know is SCOARBORED

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Wrong

NO! We spent a decade and a half generally sucking trying to do things a boring, conventional way putting defense first. YOU DO NOT GET TO TELL THE REST OF US WE'RE DONE TAKING AN OFFENSE FIRST APPROACH AFTER ONE FULL SEASON. If the approach is going to suck, we've got a good fourteen years of crapping the bed this way before I even consider giving an inch on this. You do not get your way on this.

 

[Millhouse]

NO! We spent a decade and a half generally sucking trying to do things a boring, conventional way putting defense first. YOU DO NOT GET TO TELL THE REST OF US WE'RE DONE TAKING AN OFFENSE FIRST APPROACH AFTER ONE FULL SEASON. If the approach is going to suck, we've got a good fourteen years of crapping the bed this way before I even consider giving an inch on this. You do not get your way on this.

pitt is probably thinking they should hire a respected defensive coach with big 10 experience in Michigan to put an end to playstation nation soft NERRRD football like that SU game

 

[OttoinGrotto]

pitt is probably thinking they should hire a respected defensive coach with big 10 experience in Michigan to put an end to playstation nation soft NERRRD football like that SU game

Punt team! Punt team!

 

[Pyle]

NO! We spent a decade and a half generally sucking trying to do things a boring, conventional way putting defense first. YOU DO NOT GET TO TELL THE REST OF US WE'RE DONE TAKING AN OFFENSE FIRST APPROACH AFTER ONE FULL SEASON. If the approach is going to suck, we've got a good fourteen years of crapping the bed this way before I even consider giving an inch on this. You do not get your way on this.

That's not even true. Grob was supposed to bring us the WCO remember? He was an offensive hire. Marrone was also an offensive guy who hit lightning in a bottle with Shafer. Yeah sure Spence's offense sucked but the reality is that Hackett's was pretty good and so was our defense and we won 8 games. What's really irking me about you guys is that you seem to believe that offense and defense are mutually exclusive, they are not. We were good in 2012 because we could do both. We can do both again, Dino's defense needs to get better. I didn't say go hire Schwartz to be our HC, but everyone here should be saying wow we lost a game we scored over 60 points in by 2 TDs, maybe all offense and no defense doesn't get it done either. We need at least an average defense to go with all this offense or we will just lose more high scoring games instead of low scoring ones. And it doesn't make it exciting to watch the other team score every single time they touch the ball. It's infuriating.

 

[Millhouse]

That's not even true. Grob was supposed to bring us the WCO remember? He was an offensive hire. Marrone was also an offensive guy who hit lightning in a bottle with Shafer. Yeah sure Spence's offense sucked but the reality is that Hackett's was pretty good and so was our defense and we won 8 games. What's really irking me about you guys is that you seem to believe that offense and defense are mutually exclusive, they are not. We were good in 2012 because we could do both. We can do both again, Dino's defense needs to get better. I didn't say go hire Schwartz to be our HC, but everyone here should be saying wow we lost a game we scored over 60 points in by 2 TDs, maybe all offense and no defense doesn't get it done either. We need at least an average defense to go with all this offense or we will just lose more high scoring games instead of low scoring ones. And it doesn't make it exciting to watch the other team score every single time they touch the ball. It's infuriating.

gerg was an offensive hire because... he tried to put in an offense?

 

[TheCusian]

Agree to disagree.

So you're saying you think this years team would take their more prolific offense into 4 extra OT periods and do worse than the less prolific 2015 team.

 

[TheCusian]

Without going through a bunch of posts, aren't you the one that is arguing that our defense gave up so many points based on Dino's tempo being faster and leading to more plays/possessions per game? If not my apologies to you, and to the person who was arguing that point I say tempo had very little to do with WRs being wide open down the middle of the field, over and over and over again.

More possessions = higher your chances of scoring

This is not debatable. Bad defense make the percentage even higher. We need it to be better to win.

But if it only gets 25% better at stopping people and our O gets 25% better at scoring - we win a lot more games than this - YEAR 1 - of both systems.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

That's not even true. Grob was supposed to bring us the WCO remember? He was an offensive hire. Marrone was also an offensive guy who hit lightning in a bottle with Shafer. Yeah sure Spence's offense sucked but the reality is that Hackett's was pretty good and so was our defense and we won 8 games. What's really irking me about you guys is that you seem to believe that offense and defense are mutually exclusive, they are not. We were good in 2012 because we could do both. We can do both again, Dino's defense needs to get better. I didn't say go hire Schwartz to be our HC, but everyone here should be saying wow we lost a game we scored over 60 points in by 2 TDs, maybe all offense and no defense doesn't get it done either. We need at least an average defense to go with all this offense or we will just lose more high scoring games instead of low scoring ones. And it doesn't make it exciting to watch the other team score every single time they touch the ball. It's infuriating.

I agree that Robinson was an offensive hire, but what does that have to do with the kind of offense he tried to bring? :rimshot:

Marrone was an offensive hire that put his chips behind defense and didn't really leap forward until his breakthrough on offense.

Shafer had no conviction on offense and couldn't recover on rolling the dice on a guy that turned out to not be ready and may not ever be.

Listen, being good on both defense and offense is ideal. I'm not saying I want us to pull our defensive players off the field. But being good on defense can be a lot more illusion than people want to admit, and we have a whole lot of recent history to suggest it doesn't translate into wins. I am saying that we need an identity and need to do something well first. The Dome begs to have a high flying offense, nobody else has a Dome, and nobody else in our near geography tries to establish their identity on offense. So let's carve out that we're the premier program in the Northeast for offense and let the defense try to catch up. If it can't ever catch up, or is only periodically good, that may be how it goes. But people will have a lot more fun if we master offense first. I get that you didn't like that Pitt scored a bunch. But the opponent scoring a bunch while you score a bunch but a little less is way more enjoyable than the excruciating situation we've endured far too long of our opponent scoring a little bit and us not being able to score at all.

FORTISSIMO*

KaiserUEO working on it, not there yet