Three point woes | Page 3 | Syracusefan.com

Three point woes

cooney is a practice shooter -
do we have proof that he even makes the shots in practice? I recall reading some posts a couple years back that basically were stating he couldn't make shots in pick up games.
 
Capt. Tuttle said:
Truth be told, we are rarely more talented. JB's schemes and system make players appear more talented than they are: Moten, Nichols, Warrick, Jackson, AO, Brown. All of those guys excelled in college. None did much of anything in the pros. Pros are about talent. Guys with it play. Guys without it go home, or to Europe or the D league.

This is just absurd on so many levels. Thank you for making me laugh.
 
OttoinGrotto said:
The game isn't coming easily to him right now. Even the good looks are an adventure.
yep. Cooney, kjo, BJ and trob look like they are playing in a game ten times the speed they're going. Just need to slow it down.
 
TBCuse11 said:
he gets to the rack and the ball gets swatted in to the 10th row. I guess people jut see what they want to in regards to Cooney. the opposing sides will never agree, and the truth is probably in the middle. I see a guy who the oppposing team puts ONE defender on, never doubles him, and yes Trevor is never open. I see a guy who runs loops around the court non-stop... agree to disagree.
They are constantly trying to screen Cooney open. Mostly staggered baseline screens.
 
CuseFaninVT said:
What do you think is the root cause here? I saw someone mention a week or so ago that practicing in the Melo Center might be the problem. I'd love to see the stats on our team shooting at home versus on the road. Visual perspective is a huge thing to a shooter, and maybe we need to have our guys shooting more at the dome with those ridiculous open sight lines. Or are we just not that good as shooters in a game situation?
I think some of it is physical. I wonder if thy practice wide open jumpers or move into them with defenders closing.

But the bigger part is mental. You can see it one every shot these guys take almost trying to will it in. Compared to an Andy or devo that would be swaggering back to half court
 
I think some of it is physical. I wonder if thy practice wide open jumpers or move into them with defenders closing.

But the bigger part is mental. You can see it one every shot these guys take almost trying to will it in. Compared to an Andy or devo that would be swaggering back to half court

Last game I watched it felt like many of the shots were aimed, not just shot. Coach needs to find a way to get shooters easy looks - closer ones - at the beginning of the game and let the shooters build their confidence. Easier said than done.

And I still don't understand why anyone would think the shot where Cooney comes tearing off a screen moving away from the basket is a fundamentally sound one. That has to go. He can't make that shot nor can about 99.999% of human beings alive today. It's something that happens every game so clearly it's a designed play. Huh, just thought of something. Maybe it's his speed that is screwing that play up. If he slowed it down just a bit, his momentum wouldn't drag him farther away from the bucket and he's have a better shot of getting squared up with his feet set. Hmmm. I think I'll ask Coach Orange about that one.
 
CuseFaninVT said:
Last game I watched it felt like many of the shots were aimed, not just shot. Coach needs to find a way to get shooters easy looks - closer ones - at the beginning of the game and let the shooters build their confidence. Easier said than done. And I still don't understand why anyone would think the shot where Cooney comes tearing off a screen moving away from the basket is a fundamentally sound one. That has to go. He can't make that shot nor can about 99.999% of human beings alive today. It's something that happens every game so clearly it's a designed play. Huh, just thought of something. Maybe it's his speed that is screwing that play up. If he slowed it down just a bit, his momentum wouldn't drag him farther away from the bucket and he's have a better shot of getting squared up with his feet set. Hmmm. I think I'll ask Coach Orange about that one.
Agreed it's an awful look. He can dribble once and be wide open.
 
What do you think is the root cause here? I saw someone mention a week or so ago that practicing in the Melo Center might be the problem. I'd love to see the stats on our team shooting at home versus on the road. Visual perspective is a huge thing to a shooter, and maybe we need to have our guys shooting more at the dome with those ridiculous open sight lines.

Or are we just not that good as shooters in a game situation?

My opinion only, but I don't put much stock in the "open sight lines" disadvantage of the Dome. Sadly, it never seems to adversely impact any of the teams we play against... :(

I don't think I've ever seen a team have a sustained run of shooting so poorly. We're going on three years. And guys like MCW, Cooney, Triche, and CJ showed all had the tools--MCW was the skills competition winner at the McD's all american game, Cooney had the reputation of a big time shooter, Triche shot better earlier in his career, and then inexplicably slipped to sub .300 his senior year from there. Ditto CJ. Not sure what's going on--but we need to reverse it.

Its ironic to me that we DESPERATELY could have used post scoring the previous two years to help free up some other things offensively. This year, we have post scoring in abundence with Rak / McCullough, but can't hit the broad side of the barn from outside. Frustrating.
 
The definition of insanity is panicking 25% of the way through the season.

Tons of season left, absolutely.

But the issues we have are very real, and things like not being able to shoot, for a few years now, are frustrating, because, ya know, the entire premise of the game is to put a basket through a hoop by...shooting.
 
My opinion only, but I don't put much stock in the "open sight lines" disadvantage of the Dome. Sadly, it never seems to adversely impact any of the teams we play against... :(

I don't think I've ever seen a team have a sustained run of shooting so poorly. We're going on three years. And guys like MCW, Cooney, Triche, and CJ showed all had the tools--MCW was the skills competition winner at the McD's all american game, Cooney had the reputation of a big time shooter, Triche shot better earlier in his career, and then inexplicably slipped to sub .300 his senior year from there. Ditto CJ. Not sure what's going on--but we need to reverse it.

Its ironic to me that we DESPERATELY could have used post scoring the previous two years to help free up some other things offensively. This year, we have post scoring in abundence with Rak / McCullough, but can't hit the broad side of the barn from outside. Frustrating.

And from what I've read, Triche is shooting really well in Italy...
 
Yeah, you're probably right.

Other coaches aren't as smart as Lavin.

Instead of packing the paint, double-teaming Christmas and face guarding Cooney, Duke will probably face guard Buss, double-team BJ and ignore Christmas altogether.

Do you seriously think that what the other team's defense does has zero impact on who gets shots and who doesn't?

St. John's left Patterson wide open and double-teamed Xmas everytime he touched it.

i absolutely agree with your point. what i'm saying, though, is that when rak gets 15 points in a game on just eight shots and the rest of the team manages only nine points on 22 attempts from three, s.u. wouldn't have anything to lose by calling some plays designed for rak to shoot, even if he is double teamed.

maybe they do that five times and he goes 0-5. or 5-5. or 0-4 and 1-2 from the line. whatever. if this team is going to be any good this year -- and unlike most people i think you can do a lot worse than rak, mccullough and silent g -- it's going to be because of their inside game.

however, if s.u. plans to shy away from rak as soon as opposing defenses double team him, then it's going to be one long-ass season.
 
i absolutely agree with your point. what i'm saying, though, is that when rak gets 15 points in a game on just eight shots and the rest of the team manages only nine points on 22 attempts from three, s.u. wouldn't have anything to lose by calling some plays designed for rak to shoot, even if he is double teamed.

maybe they do that five times and he goes 0-5. or 5-5. or 0-4 and 1-2 from the line. whatever. if this team is going to be any good this year -- and unlike most people i think you can do a lot worse than rak, mccullough and silent g -- it's going to be because of their inside game.

however, if s.u. plans to shy away from rak as soon as opposing defenses double team him, then it's going to be one long-ass season.

Down the stretch, Rak did try to muscle his way through a double-team.

He turned it over.

Not advisable. He's not Carmelo.
 
Down the stretch, Rak did try to muscle his way through a double-team.

He turned it over.

Not advisable. He's not Carmelo.

Exactly. At this point in his career Rak is still adjusting to the role of being a scorer. Asking him to do more right now probably isn't the best way to go about things. As the season progresses he'll continue to improve...and hopefully adjust to double-teams, etc., as teams focus more on shutting off he and McCullough and forcing anyone else to beat them. He's the least of my worries though - if he wants to go at some double-teams, have it, just learn from it.

The issue will continue to be what happens when Rak and McCullough aren't touching the ball. :(
 
Last game I watched it felt like many of the shots were aimed, not just shot. Coach needs to find a way to get shooters easy looks - closer ones - at the beginning of the game and let the shooters build their confidence. Easier said than done.

And I still don't understand why anyone would think the shot where Cooney comes tearing off a screen moving away from the basket is a fundamentally sound one. That has to go. He can't make that shot nor can about 99.999% of human beings alive today. It's something that happens every game so clearly it's a designed play. Huh, just thought of something. Maybe it's his speed that is screwing that play up. If he slowed it down just a bit, his momentum wouldn't drag him farther away from the bucket and he's have a better shot of getting squared up with his feet set. Hmmm. I think I'll ask Coach Orange about that one.

Hitting jump shots cutting off of screens is definitely more difficult for most players than sinking them when their feet are set upon the catch. I agree that Trevor plays too fast at times. He's impatient when reading screens, he rushes to get shots off, and he often speeds through his shot mechanics. As you point out, hurrying as he cuts away from the basket off of these pin-sown screens leads him to fade or lean as he shoots because he is off-balance. He is not a good enough shooter to compensate for poor mechanics.

The real key is for the player to set his feet before receiving the ball. Cooney is not great at this. Also, he doesn't curl the screen or fade off (bump) of the screen well. When a player cuts off of a screen the same way no matter how the defense plays it, he is wasting the screen. Occasionally, Trevor curls the screen (once every few games), which usually leads to good things in the lane. However, he does this far less often than he should. Furthermore, I can't remember the last time I saw him bump a screen. Andy Rautins executed this move well by his senior season. Even when he correctly cuts straight off a screen, Trevor still needs to use shot and pass fakes more to create space for his shots.

The good news is that Trevor has shown some growth in his game this season. His handle has improved, and he seems more confident when taking the ball to the hoop. He has also improved his passing some. If he can keep developing his fundamental technical and tactical skills, he could be a valuable piece to a solid tournament team this year and next.

In terms of the offense as a whole, getting more looks at the hoop with our shooters' feet set on the catch would help. This could be done in transition, but it can also be done through half-court offensive design. Coach Boeheim loves two types of screens in his set-play offense: pin-down screens and ball screens. He also has players execute a stagger screen for the best shooter in the "Double Fist" play, and will occasionally work in a cross screen to isolate a player on one side of the floor ("53" and "54" plays). That's about it, which is part of the shooting problem. We rarely use fade screens, zipper screens, UCLA screens, flex screens, etc. We don't even use dribble handoffs as much as we used to when Gerry McNamara was running the show.

In short, more player and ball movement would help players get more looks moving toward the basket or with their feet set prior to catching the ball. Moving the help defense allows for driving lanes, which should create layups and kick-outs. Additionally, fighting through screen after screen takes a toll on a defense over time, causing slower closeouts on shooters and more fouls. Finally, this movement would hurt defenses that want to double Christmas in the post.

That said, it doesn't matter how many open looks bad shooters get; bad shooting is bad. Only a couple of the players look like "true shooters"--McCullough and BJ, for example (yes, BJ. Each shot he takes looks good, even though he hasn't hit many outside jumpers yet. The young man also understands the fundamental tactical reads in an offense, sliding to the correct areas based on ball position); the rest of them look like they can occasionally hit shots. This is not a recipe for consistent offensive success, regardless of offensive scheme.
 
Hitting jump shots cutting off of screens is definitely more difficult for most players than sinking them when their feet are set upon the catch. I agree that Trevor plays too fast at times. He's impatient when reading screens, he rushes to get shots off, and he often speeds through his shot mechanics. As you point out, hurrying as he cuts away from the basket off of these pin-sown screens leads him to fade or lean as he shoots because he is off-balance. He is not a good enough shooter to compensate for poor mechanics.

The real key is for the player to set his feet before receiving the ball. Cooney is not great at this. Also, he doesn't curl the screen or fade off (bump) of the screen well. When a player cuts off of a screen the same way no matter how the defense plays it, he is wasting the screen. Occasionally, Trevor curls the screen (once every few games), which usually leads to good things in the lane. However, he does this far less often than he should. Furthermore, I can't remember the last time I saw him bump a screen. Andy Rautins executed this move well by his senior season. Even when he correctly cuts straight off a screen, Trevor still needs to use shot and pass fakes more to create space for his shots.

The good news is that Trevor has shown some growth in his game this season. His handle has improved, and he seems more confident when taking the ball to the hoop. He has also improved his passing some. If he can keep developing his fundamental technical and tactical skills, he could be a valuable piece to a solid tournament team this year and next.

In terms of the offense as a whole, getting more looks at the hoop with our shooters' feet set on the catch would help. This could be done in transition, but it can also be done through half-court offensive design. Coach Boeheim loves two types of screens in his set-play offense: pin-down screens and ball screens. He also has players execute a stagger screen for the best shooter in the "Double Fist" play, and will occasionally work in a cross screen to isolate a player on one side of the floor ("53" and "54" plays). That's about it, which is part of the shooting problem. We rarely use fade screens, zipper screens, UCLA screens, flex screens, etc. We don't even use dribble handoffs as much as we used to when Gerry McNamara was running the show.

In short, more player and ball movement would help players get more looks moving toward the basket or with their feet set prior to catching the ball. Moving the help defense allows for driving lanes, which should create layups and kick-outs. Additionally, fighting through screen after screen takes a toll on a defense over time, causing slower closeouts on shooters and more fouls. Finally, this movement would hurt defenses that want to double Christmas in the post.

That said, it doesn't matter how many open looks bad shooters get; bad shooting is bad. Only a couple of the players look like "true shooters"--McCullough and BJ, for example (yes, BJ. Each shot he takes looks good, even though he hasn't hit many outside jumpers yet. The young man also understands the fundamental tactical reads in an offense, sliding to the correct areas based on ball position); the rest of them look like they can occasionally hit shots. This is not a recipe for consistent offensive success, regardless of offensive scheme.

Just got a little bit smarter about hoops once again. Bringing you into the conversation always works out for me.
 
I think the 2 guard position in the Syracuse offense is the most difficult position to play. Out of all the positions on the court I feel like they are often put in the hardest position to succeed. I felt that way when Triche was here as well. I feel like the way our sets are designed, to often the 2 is just standing somewhere on the court for spacing reasons and is to easy to guard. When Triche was here I thought that was a total waste of his talent. He wasn't really a 2 guard. He would of been better suited to be the primary ball handler, but obviously he played with Scoop and MCW so that never happened.

We complained about Trevor wearing down because he ran like a chicken last year, and this year he's been the complete opposite. To often he is just standing there. No wonder he can't get open. Maybe he needs to handle the ball more and that will help him get going.
 

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