Time Management

smillerband

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I’d like the opinion of members on how our team executes late game time management. I understand the concept of limiting the number of possessions for the opponent which certainly makes sense but it’s the way we execute it that is frustrating to watch. A 25 foot jump shot with 3 seconds off the clock should be frowned upon and would be a one way ticket to coach‘s dog house. However the answer to this seems to be sticking the ball in your shorts for 18 seconds and scrambling to get free for a shot often resulting in a turnover or desperation brick. How often do we see players get wide open for a high percentage shot only to eschew it completely in favor of continuing to pass the ball around as if burning 24 seconds is more important than 2 more points. I’d say take the 2 points and then burn more clock by playing tenacious defense.

What am I missing guys and gals? Feel free to be brutally honest.
 

Capt. Tuttle

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I’d like the opinion of members on how our team executes late game time management. I understand the concept of limiting the number of possessions for the opponent which certainly makes sense but it’s the way we execute it that is frustrating to watch. A 25 foot jump shot with 3 seconds off the clock should be frowned upon and would be a one way ticket to coach‘s dog house. However the answer to this seems to be sticking the ball in your shorts for 18 seconds and scrambling to get free for a shot often resulting in a turnover or desperation brick. How often do we see players get wide open for a high percentage shot only to eschew it completely in favor of continuing to pass the ball around as if burning 24 seconds is more important than 2 more points. I’d say take the 2 points and then burn more clock by playing tenacious defense.

What am I missing guys and gals? Feel free to be brutally honest.
You’re missing the fact that SU almost always wins when JB takes the air out of the ball, as they say. It’s math. Not sure how JB does it (for instance does he assume 25 seconds for SU and 15 for the other team, and that the other team will score on 50% of possessions, and we will score on 1/3? Whatever it is, it works.)
The fact that we all might remember a time or two that it didn’t work proves how rarely it doesn’t.
Also, usually we would be getting fouled, but not this year.
 

Killdozer

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You’re missing the fact that SU almost always wins when JB takes the air out of the ball, as they say. It’s math. Not sure how JB does it (for instance does he assume 25 seconds for SU and 15 for the other team, and that the other team will score on 50% of possessions, and we will score on 1/3? Whatever it is, it works.)
The fact that we all might remember a time or two that it didn’t work proves how rarely it doesn’t.
Also, usually we would be getting fouled, but not this year.
It almost always works when they have a double digit lead, not so much when less then 10 points. It is more about the timing of when the stall happens. I personally believe it is started to early in the game clock. They started the stall with 5+ minutes left last night. SU was on a roll with the pace but once they started the "slow down" it all changed. If not for that AG gifted three it may have been a different out come.
 

SU94

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I’d like the opinion of members on how our team executes late game time management. I understand the concept of limiting the number of possessions for the opponent which certainly makes sense but it’s the way we execute it that is frustrating to watch. A 25 foot jump shot with 3 seconds off the clock should be frowned upon and would be a one way ticket to coach‘s dog house. However the answer to this seems to be sticking the ball in your shorts for 18 seconds and scrambling to get free for a shot often resulting in a turnover or desperation brick. How often do we see players get wide open for a high percentage shot only to eschew it completely in favor of continuing to pass the ball around as if burning 24 seconds is more important than 2 more points. I’d say take the 2 points and then burn more clock by playing tenacious defense.

What am I missing guys and gals? Feel free to be brutally honest.
Horizon League top-seed Wright State "kept playing" earlier this week, blew a 24-point lead with 6+ minutes left to sub-.500 UM Milwaukee. Their season is now over.

Gonzaga/Few, a top 10 program, wasn't good as in 2016. See our Sweet 16 game. We came back from 9 down with ~5 minutes left (or something close to this)

And while these are just a couple of examples, just know that SU/JAB are on a short list of the best programs at winning games that they should. People around here call it the slide rule.
 

Newhouser

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This is one area that I think JB handles very well. This year especially with our ability to hit FT's. It gets dicey because of our abysmal ball handling, but for me the strategy is sound.
 

upperdeck

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its not like we dont go on long scoring droughts in game all the time anyway.. last night down 7 and still in the 1-1 Clemson didnt even try to foul and see what happens..
 

Tobias Funke

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Agree with what a few have already said. As a fan it is not fun to watch and frankly adds to the anxiety. That said some coaches look to push deeper into the game and perhaps switch up their defense to fit, but run standard offensive sets with some natural delay. JB chooses the obvious clock management approach. It really is a math equation for him. As for the poster who referenced free throw shooting, and ball handling that is spot on. Oddly its usually the inverse where we can handle the ball, but can't shoot.
 

CardiacCuse

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It is really frustrating when the team is scoring at will and getting a good shot every possession...as was the case in the second half. ..to see the slow down lead to some bad shots and less points/possession. They got some lucky bounces and scored so it didnt matter...but it mattered vs UNC and Pitt.

It started really early vs Clemson...like at the 8min left mark. Kadary does mitigate it though and makes it palatable bc with his drives he can get the team a good shot with only a few seconds left.

I look at it like this:

with 20 or so seconds left - only shoot a great shot.

from 20-5 seconds shoot a good shot but look for a great one.

Under 10 seconds...you need to start trying to create something.

as time winds down...the quality of shot generally decreases...especially if jg3 or buddy are forced to shoot against an expiring clock...bc they dont really separate easily from defenders...but its also true for the other players on the team and the all bball players generally...

this team in particluar isnt that great in ISO...so the slow down really hurts them more than other JB teams, imo. bc it leads to iso shots.

a big Problem is...when the team is killing clock...the team starts too late and often ends with up very poor quality shots...especially without Kadary in there.

So the trade is poor quality shots for more time killed...the opponent almost always narrows the gap during this time...which is frustrating when the gap had either increased or ballooned to get to that point.

still...A bunch of quick misses is basically what the other team needs to make a huge comback...combined with a bunch of makes on the other end...which indeed CAN HAPPEN.

But when SU is ROLLING and scoring at will ...very very unlikely to happen...and i think overall the slow down strategy makes a loss slightly more likely than if they just played normal and turned the game into a blowout...or maintained the cushion.

Blowouts are useful when the schedule is crammed ...like this season or NCAA time.

Imagine the starters could rest last 8 minutes or so...could help next game. So they should try if theres a chance.

i think the way JB coaches this team...he makes it less likely that there would ever be a blowout...especially starting the slow down with a bunch of time still left. It usually works out fine...but it seems a bit paranoid at times.

but close game management is good practice too...this team is very bad at it...but has good ft shooters so that helps a lot.
 

shu 49

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I’d like the opinion of members on how our team executes late game time management. I understand the concept of limiting the number of possessions for the opponent which certainly makes sense but it’s the way we execute it that is frustrating to watch. A 25 foot jump shot with 3 seconds off the clock should be frowned upon and would be a one way ticket to coach‘s dog house. However the answer to this seems to be sticking the ball in your shorts for 18 seconds and scrambling to get free for a shot often resulting in a turnover or desperation brick. How often do we see players get wide open for a high percentage shot only to eschew it completely in favor of continuing to pass the ball around as if burning 24 seconds is more important than 2 more points. I’d say take the 2 points and then burn more clock by playing tenacious defense.

What am I missing guys and gals? Feel free to be brutally honest.
We start it with six minutes left which is a bit early cause as u said we get 3-4 late sec bad shots instead of good ones. I say maybe five min slow down but dang not at six.
 

Col. Bleep

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You’re missing the fact that SU almost always wins when JB takes the air out of the ball, as they say. It’s math. Not sure how JB does it (for instance does he assume 25 seconds for SU and 15 for the other team, and that the other team will score on 50% of possessions, and we will score on 1/3? Whatever it is, it works.)
The fact that we all might remember a time or two that it didn’t work proves how rarely it doesn’t.
Also, usually we would be getting fouled, but not this year.
This is not a skill that came easily for Jim Boeheim.
He struggled for a number of years to get a good handle on this aspect of "momentum."
(The most notable failure here was the last game at Manley Fieldhouse).
Now, as noted, he does a pretty good job and the Orange rarely blow a game when running clock.

But games can get "closer than they should be" because SU often does wait until the very end before hoisting whatever they can get.
It would be nice if the team had a few plays to try to get better shots at the end of the clock.
And if the defense slips, the other team can score quickly.
(UNC hit some 3's and cut a 10 point deficit to 2 in the last 1:55 this week)

Also, much depends on ball handling and free throw shooting.
Fortunately foul shots are a strong point for the Orange this season.
 

upperdeck

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there is also the assumption built in that the other team will foul rather than just let us run 30 secs down every time.. given 6 possessions unless we go 0-6 and the other team goes 6-6 the 10-15 pt lead still stays around 2-3 possessions.

we could also play normal pace in which case say 10 possessions and we score 2 and they score 8 times? He just feels better controlling the pace because on side effect over looked is that when we take the pace of play down the other team tends to rush even more and that helps us as well..

Its not just about us.
 

upperdeck

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This is not a skill that came easily for Jim Boeheim.
He struggled for a number of years to get a good handle on this aspect of "momentum."
(The most notable failure here was the last game at Manley Fieldhouse).
Now, as noted, he does a pretty good job and the Orange rarely blow a game when running clock.

But games can get "closer than they should be" because SU often does wait until the very end before hoisting whatever they can get.
It would be nice if the team had a few plays to try to get better shots at the end of the clock.
And if the defense slips, the other team can score quickly.
(UNC hit some 3's and cut a 10 point deficit to 2 in the last 1:55 this week)

Also, much depends on ball handling and free throw shooting.
Fortunately foul shots are a strong point for the Orange this season.
yeah but UNC was also helped by us making mistakes like not just holding the ball on the sideline for a tie up when we had the arrow and throwing an inbounds pass OB without being touched.. those are simple things we know not to do..
 

721Comstock

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This has been brought up here before, but it is tough to argue with this:


It's funny - BOTH Dan Hurley and Fran McCaffrey are basically the ANTI-Boeheim in terms of winning (or NOT winning) close games.

Maybe we should share that tidbit (along with respective NCAA records, and lack of getting dudes in the Association) when we're trying to recruit against those programs?
 

JoeSU

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I have no problem with JB's approach; the results speak for themselves.
I do wish we we executed better, however. This season it seems that we stand around until there are <10 secs left on the shot clock, then there's a frantic scramble to get off a decent shot (all too often resulting in a poor shot).
What about having a handful of "set" plays that JB can call from the sidelines, depending on the score/time and personnel on the floor?
 

Consigliere

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I’d like the opinion of members on how our team executes late game time management. I understand the concept of limiting the number of possessions for the opponent which certainly makes sense but it’s the way we execute it that is frustrating to watch. A 25 foot jump shot with 3 seconds off the clock should be frowned upon and would be a one way ticket to coach‘s dog house. However the answer to this seems to be sticking the ball in your shorts for 18 seconds and scrambling to get free for a shot often resulting in a turnover or desperation brick. How often do we see players get wide open for a high percentage shot only to eschew it completely in favor of continuing to pass the ball around as if burning 24 seconds is more important than 2 more points. I’d say take the 2 points and then burn more clock by playing tenacious defense.

What am I missing guys and gals? Feel free to be brutally honest.
Count the number of possessions your lead computes to (Points ahead divided by three), determine the number of potential possessions the opponent can be limited to (Seconds left divided by 30 +10) and if the former exceeds the latter running off thirty seconds enhances your probability of victory. Most good coaches do this.
 

upperdeck

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And only in games where they shoot way better than 50/50 from 3. and you score way less than like 30% of the time does it ever matter what happens.

it happens and a team makes 3-4-5 in a row. but not very often
 

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