Token starter frustration

[br801]

I completely agree well not completely. I'm not convinced of DC2 talent, but I love the strategy by JB. The funny thing is JB has been criticized for not playing or developing his bench for years and now he has created a system to do just that and he is being ripped for it! You can't have it both ways! Starting DC2 gives the team the maximum amount of time to recover from a hole and it gives JB game film that the he can use as a teaching tool to help develop DC2.

You and Sgt Cuse make great cases for the "token starter" approach.

 

[HarrisonJBounel]

This is what I don't understand, who says he had potential? He's a big guy but there doesn't seem to be one skill that he is above average on. As a matter of fact I would say he is far below average at every aspect of the game. Every big that we've had who was disappointing showed SOMETHING or some sort of potential. I have not seen one thing from DC2. I rarely throw the bust tag on somebody as young as him and so early in his career, but I don't see it getting better for him here. He should probably transfer after this year because Chin will probably get BMK's minutes next year if Coleman doesn't show anything. I hope I eat crow on this, but I have zero faith at him at this point.

As one example, coming out of HS, he was a five-star recruit with a 97 grade according to ESPN:

http://espn.go.com/colleges/basketball/recruiting/school/_/id/183/class/2012

I agree that so far he has been pretty much a bust. But as anyone who has played sports knows, confidence is everything. We've all had that experience, though granted not at DC's level, that one good game can elevate you and make you believe that "Yeah, I can play at this level". I'm not saying it will happen - DC2 could well turn out to be the bust that he has been so far. I'm trusting the scouting services that unanimously said that the upside is there. But he does need to show that soon, or he deserves to be on the bench. If benched, he should seriously think about transferring. The next month or so is do or die for him, IMO, at least as far as his SU career is concerned.

 

[SBU72]

This is what I don't understand, who says he had potential? He's a big guy but there doesn't seem to be one skill that he is above average on. As a matter of fact I would say he is far below average at every aspect of the game. Every big that we've had who was disappointing showed SOMETHING or some sort of potential. I have not seen one thing from DC2. I rarely throw the bust tag on somebody as young as him and so early in his career, but I don't see it getting better for him here. He should probably transfer after this year because Chin will probably get BMK's minutes next year if Coleman doesn't show anything. I hope I eat crow on this, but I have zero faith at him at this point.

When Coleman was a HS jr, he was rated very highly. Somewhere in the top 5 if not #1. Then as a Sr, he dropped some but many here said that he would be the starter for SU on the team that had Fab Melo and Xmas. I have not seen any of that in him over the last 2 years. And of course what adds to the frustration is people saying "it takes big men longer to decvelop." Well h311, he was so supposed to be so talented that he shouldn't have to take time to develope. Still, I do not fault the "token start" tactic. If he comes in and does some good things for a while it does deveolp him and also relieves pressure from Xmas and BMK.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

This response is so annoying. Yes , you can question one of the greatest basketball coaches ever. There's not much to question him about but the whole token starter thing is one.

But in this instance, the record is relevant. If the OP's objection to the use of token starters is not based on losing, the complaint loses a lot of its legitimacy. What is the problem then, the point spread is not enough?

Also people don't seem to review the successes of this strategy. It started with the token start of RJ at pf next to AO - next year at pf RJ was DPOY. Fab tokened, then DPOY. Rak has tokened and is starting to show some benefits. Hard to believe with that track record people want to bail on the development of a McD, possible AO clone after one game.

If the OP's concern is not the losses this strategy has brought, it sounds like people want to extend the point spread at the expense of player development. That is insane.

 

[OttoMets]

I completely agree well not completely. I'm not convinced of DC2 talent, but I love the strategy by JB. The funny thing is JB has been criticized for not playing or developing his bench for years and now he has created a system to do just that and he is being ripped for it! You can't have it both ways! Starting DC2 gives the team the maximum amount of time to recover from a hole and it gives JB game film that the he can use as a teaching tool to help develop DC2.

Good post.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

I completely agree well not completely. I'm not convinced of DC2 talent, but I love the strategy by JB. The funny thing is JB has been criticized for not playing or developing his bench for years and now he has created a system to do just that and he is being ripped for it! You can't have it both ways! Starting DC2 gives the team the maximum amount of time to recover from a hole and it gives JB game film that the he can use as a teaching tool to help develop DC2.

I was a former critic of JB's use of subs and I like what he is currently doing so much better. I hope he never goes back.

I think that in addition to player development, defensive attitude, team chemistry, and even recruiting have been positively affected by the change.

I also think that DC2 has talent. If SU can add an AO type post game we will be a NC contender.

 

[Trueblue25]

DC2 has far too much upside to not give playing time to.

 

[Gabjon]

I was a former critic of JB's use of subs and I like what he is currently doing so much better. I hope he never goes back.

I think that in addition to player development, defensive attitude, team chemistry, and even recruiting have been positively affected by the change.

I also think that DC2 has talent. If SU can add an AO type post game we will be a NC contender.

I think he has talent but "oozes potential" I'm not so sure. That term is reserved for future first rounders IMO. Can he be a very good college? sure. Big picture though I agree JB is doing the right thing and our Bigs have benefited from it and I believe DC2 will too.

 

[two3zone]

But in this instance, the record is relevant. If the OP's objection to the use of token starters is not based on losing, the complaint loses a lot of its legitimacy. What is the problem then, the point spread is not enough?

Also people don't seem to review the successes of this strategy. It started with the token start of RJ at pf next to AO - next year at pf RJ was DPOY. Fab tokened, then DPOY. Rak has tokened and is starting to show some benefits. Hard to believe with that track record people want to bail on the development of a McD, possible AO clone after one game.

If the OP's concern is not the losses this strategy has brought, it sounds like people want to extend the point spread at the expense of player development. That is insane.

Uggggg, can the Coleman AO clones/comparisons please stop for the love of god, they're not similar at all. When Coleman throws down a monster jam taking the Dome down or sends a shot 20 feet out of bounds then maybe but until he can do anything other than make an uncontested layup or a rebound over somebody if similar size it needs to stop. I'm the same size of Michael Jordan but I'm not his clone.


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[Ghost]

I felt like I saw far more potential out of players like Watkins, and Onuaku early on than I've seen out of Coleman to date. He's going to be a useful cog going forward, but as of right now he still seems extremely limited. That being said, I have no big issue with starting him. Against smaller teams he won't hurt us all that much, and he's still a big body. As someone else mentioned previously, I don't see any specific thing he does better than average. Seems a tad limited athletically, a horrible tendency of playing small, doesn't have a smooth shot. I also disagree that he's our best rebounder - he's up there, but I don't see any separation between him and numerous other players.

 

[AZOrange]

It's not always about the starter but how the replacement is being used...baye off the bench works

 

[AZOrange]

When Coleman was a HS jr, he was rated very highly. Somewhere in the top 5 if not #1. Then as a Sr, he dropped some but many here said that he would be the starter for SU on the team that had Fab Melo and Xmas. I have not seen any of that in him over the last 2 years. And of course what adds to the frustration is people saying "it takes big men longer to decvelop." Well h311, he was so supposed to be so talented that he shouldn't have to take time to develope. Still, I do not fault the "token start" tactic. If he comes in and does some good things for a while it does deveolp him and also relieves pressure from Xmas and BMK.

He's played 1 game in his second season!

 

[bevosu]

He's played 1 game in his second season!

And he was injured for a good part of last year.

 

[zhanjuzi]

I completely agree well not completely. I'm not convinced of DC2 talent, but I love the strategy by JB. The funny thing is JB has been criticized for not playing or developing his bench for years and now he has created a system to do just that and he is being ripped for it! You can't have it both ways! Starting DC2 gives the team the maximum amount of time to recover from a hole and it gives JB game film that the he can use as a teaching tool to help develop DC2.

Yeah you have a good point .. and yes, JB does seem to have a quick hook to minimize the damage. Too bad Roberson isn't a 5 because giving him the token start minutes would be more productive since he actually is very athletic, is fundamentally sound and does not have to spend time unlearning a flawed system of post moves.

 

[Oakland]

I don't understand your logic. The five best players can't play the entire game. Why is it bad to have a back up caliber player on the court at the start of the games but not bad at other times?

Resting your better player at the start of the game before he has a chance to get tired is illogical

 

[Oakland]

I completely agree well not completely. I'm not convinced of DC2 talent, but I love the strategy by JB. The funny thing is JB has been criticized for not playing or developing his bench for years and now he has created a system to do just that and he is being ripped for it! You can't have it both ways! Starting DC2 gives the team the maximum amount of time to recover from a hole and it gives JB game film that the he can use as a teaching tool to help develop DC2.

Starting inferior players is not the only way to develop them. My criticism over the years has been that JB is hesitant to put development guys into games in the middle of the second half when the team is up 20+ pts.

 

[Oakland]

If we get into a hole thats too deep for us to get out of in the first 90 seconds, we have bigger problems than we can overcome.

The point of the OP is: why give the opposing team a better chance of putting you in a hole.

 

[Gabjon]

Starting inferior players is not the only way to develop them. My criticism over the years has been that JB is hesitant to put development guys into games in the middle of the second half when the team is up 20+ pts.

No one is suggesting it is the only way to do it, but it's a good way of doing it and IMO it's better than putting in a young player in the middle of the second half up 20 where a run against you turns a game that was over into a fight! Then you need to ask your best players to turn it back on in crunch time. Start of the game is less important than the finish even when you have a lead.

 

[br801]

Starting inferior players is not the only way to develop them. My criticism over the years has been that JB is hesitant to put development guys into games in the middle of the second half when the team is up 20+ pts.

He actually does do this, he just doesn't do it very often in league games or against top non-conference teams where the tide could potentially turn quickly.

 

[orangefan13]

Its harder for Jb's system to take a guy who does alittle of some things but isn't a stat stuffer, A guy who does nothing to well and bring him off the bench. Thats one reason JB goes with Freshmen fabs, raks, and dajuans as starters, they fit that role early on but still get the mcdonalds all american press by starting.

JB uses guys like Baye as energy off the bench. Its good to get a lead with your less evolved players, then bring in the kill team to intimidate even more. By the time your less evolved guys come back in opponents haven't forgot what they did to them early on, or the potential they have. You bring your best offensive/defensive fire off the bench and they are more focused on stoping your runs then seeing opportunity in the meat of the game after warming up early on. Sometimes it even can take the fun out of opponents games, make them roll the dice more, and make you look electric.

One reason starting triche worked so well in 09-10 and 11-12 was scoop, kjo, dion and fair coming off the bench after him, there you have 4 isolation and fire guys that worked well off the bench for a offensive spark. Just like Southerland last year he was hit miss but when he was hit he was offensive fierceness off the bench. Meanwhile Triche would get his points as a 3rd 4th,even 5th scoring option early on those teams, but never really settled into a true second scoring option in all his years here (until that @ michigan final four game, but he still wasn't the second scoring option early on in that game).

Grant is going to be that guy this year, Baye will be the other 6th man as a defensive spark. Tough to tell how Gbinije could try to stand out to help motivate the team with his energy off the bench thusfar. I think he may be trying to take a step back and trying to do less this year running the offense and earn things more off hustle then off of one on one me opportunities. He was a scorer that looked to score his entire life up until the last week. And I give him credit for taking a step back against cornell, as his opportunity to run the scoring will be there as a jr/senior if he is more ready by then. If he mentally believes, undestands and buys into that, Gbinije could look to aid this team in a different way then he expected, and make it alot better.

 

[Hoov50]

Coleman's biggest downfall is something that should have been taught in high school. KEEP THE BALL HIGH! He constantly brings it to his waste against smaller and weaker players allowing them to slap at it.


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[Oakland]

No one is suggesting it is the only way to do it, but it's a good way of doing it and IMO it's better than putting in a young player in the middle of the second half up 20 where a run against you turns a game that was over into a fight! Then you need to ask your best players to turn it back on in crunch time. Start of the game is less important than the finish even when you have a lead.

Not sure I get your logic. If the young player can cause the team to lose a 20 pt lead with 10 min left, couldn't he be just as likely to cause the team to be down 20 after 10 min? The difference would be that in the first case we would be tied, in the second case we would be down 20.

 

[Marsh01]

People make too big of a deal who starts. Grant will play at least 30 minutes every big game this season and will probably end up starting the second half like james did last year.


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[Cusefan10923]

Wouldn't it be sweet to hear Boeheim's logic as to why he starts certain guys and brings others off the bench? I would love to hear his point of view and reasoning.

I personally have no problem with the so called "token start" by these guys, and love what he has done with the bench the past few seasons. It has much to do with our recent success. I am of the mindset that while I may not agree with what Boeheim does 100% of the time with the playing time of certain guys, it is without a doubt for the better of the team. If it wasn't, we wouldn't have the success we do and he wouldn't be second all time in wins. Simple as that, he knows what he's doing better than we do.

 

[Eagles20]

Thoughts on token start potentially killing a kids confidence?? What does it do to a kids psyche? there have been occurrences where the tokened player has been pulled in under a minute and a half. The player is playing on such thin ice that they have no confidence to play freely. Fab's freshman year was hard to watch...I literally felt bad for him some games. I trust in JB, so it doesn't really bother me.