Top 5 pitchers going back to the 50's

[victor]

My top five are in no particular order: Sandy Koufax, Warren Spahn, Bob Gibson, Randy Johnson, Tom Seaver. Being a lefty, I am partial to lefties.

 

[jekelish]

I don't know baseball history beyond what I see in the record books prior to, say, 1985 (I was born in 80)...but I would have a tough time keeping Greg Maddux off of this list.

 

[JJReddawg]

Nolan Ryan
Greg Maddux
Mariano Rivera
Tom Seaver
and.....hmm.

 

[Hoo's That]

My top five are in no particular order: Sandy Koufax, Warren Spahn, Bob Gibson, Randy Johnson, Tom Seaver. Being a lefty, I am partial to lefties.

You're a lefty and forget Whitey Ford?

 

[cliftonparksufan]

Nolan Ryan
Greg Maddux
Mariano Rivera
Tom Seaver
and.....hmm.

I love Maddux but I would pick Clemens over him.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

 

[victor]

You're a lefty and forget Whitey Ford?

Yankee fan very familiar with Whitey's work but thought the ones I mentioned were better. Did not include Clements because of PED's and Nolan Ryan because of his won and lost record.

Even though he was the enemy, Koufax was incredible. He had a five year stretch where he was basically untouchable and retired at the top of his game due to arm problems.

 

[Knicks411]

I don't think Ryan really belongs in this discussion. His longevity is incredible, for sure, but he was never consistently elite as guys like Maddux/Seaver/Clemens/Johnson/Carlton etc

 

[NineOneSeven]

I'm surprised SWC75 hasn't been in this thread yet which a bunch of historical data.

 

[bevosu]

My top five are in no particular order: Sandy Koufax, Warren Spahn, Bob Gibson, Randy Johnson, Tom Seaver. Being a lefty, I am partial to lefties.

Spahn and Koufax were both great. Koufax in his prime was the best pitcher I've ever seen.

Gibson deserves to be on that list, but Jim Palmer won a few more games, had a higher winning percentage and a slightly lower ERA.

 

['72 Orange]

Yankee fan very familiar with Whitey's work but thought the ones I mentioned were better. Did not include Clements because of PED's and Nolan Ryan because of his won and lost record.

Even though he was the enemy, Koufax was incredible. He had a five year stretch where he was basically untouchable and retired at the top of his game due to arm problems.

While Tom Seaver had a very productive 20 year career, I would take Whitey Ford over him. Whitey won 69% of the games he pitched during the regular season 236W 106L and had a 2.75 career ERA. Tom Terrific won 60% of his regular season games 311W 205L and had a 2.86 ERA.

Another pitcher I think warrants consideration is Juan Marichal. 243W 142L 63% ERA 2.89 He also wasn't too bad with a bat. Just ask John Roseboro

 

[Knicks411]

While Tom Seaver had a very productive 20 year career, I would take Whitey Ford over him. Whitey won 69% of the games he pitched during the regular season 236W 106L and had a 2.75 career ERA. Tom Terrific won 60% of his regular season games 311W 205L and had a 2.86 ERA.

You don't think Whitey pitching his career for a Yankee team that was in the world series every year and Seaver spending a lot of time for a mediocre Met team might have something to do with that?

 

['72 Orange]

You don't think Whitey pitching his career for a Yankee team that was in the world series every year and Seaver spending a lot of time for a mediocre Met team might have something to do with that?

The ERA stat proves that Whitey was a more effective pitcher. Yankee offense had nothing to do with that.

 

[Knicks411]

The ERA stat proves that Whitey was a more effective pitcher. Yankee offense had nothing to do with that.

He did have a lower ERA, but Ford threw 3100 IP in his career and Seaver threw 4700. If you just took Seaver's first 3100 IP of his career, give or take, his career ERA would be 2.51. Seaver pitching till he was 42 and putting up some poor numbers at the end of his career to draw down his career ERA doesn't make him worse than Ford in my mind.

But even so, Ford had an ERA that was slightly better than Seavers. Seaver threw 50% more innings. That's a prertty massive difference

 

['72 Orange]

You don't think Whitey pitching his career for a Yankee team that was in the world series every year and Seaver spending a lot of time for a mediocre Met team might have something to do with that?

When looking at their careers as effective pitchers I compared the BA, OBP, Runs, Earned Runs and HRs they allowed per average 162 game season over their careers:

Whitey: .235-BA .300-OBP 80-Runs 70-ER 17-HRs
Tom S: .226-BA .283-OBP 87-Runs 79-ER 20-HRs

Interestingly Tom was more successful in keeping runners off base was was not as effecting in preventing them from scoring.

 

[Knicks411]

When looking at their careers as effective pitchers I compared the BA, OBP, Runs, Earned Runs and HRs they allowed per average 162 game season over their careers:

Whitey: .235-BA .300-OBP 80-Runs 70-ER 17-HRs
Tom S: .226-BA .283-OBP 87-Runs 79-ER 20-HRs

Interestingly Tom was more successful in keeping runners off base was was not as effecting in preventing them from scoring.

I think that is because Seaver pitched more innings, so the rate stats look better but the counting stats look worse because he threw more innings (though obviously we know the ERA for Ford was slightly lower, I don't debit Seaver for that because he stuck around longer at the end of his career)

Just using ESPN.com, since baseball reference is blocked at work, seaver pitched 240 IP in an average season, Ford pitched 198.

I also wish I could compare league contexts, but like i said, for whatever reason baseball reference is out right now

 

['72 Orange]

I think that is because Seaver pitched more innings, so the rate stats look better but the counting stats look worse because he threw more innings (though obviously we know the ERA for Ford was slightly lower, I don't debit Seaver for that because he stuck around longer at the end of his career)

Just using ESPN.com, since baseball reference is blocked at work, seaver pitched 240 IP in an average season, Ford pitched 198.

I also wish I could compare league contexts, but like i said, for whatever reason baseball reference is out right now

The reason that Whitey pitched fewer innings in a season is that Casey Stengel had the habit of pitching him no more than every 5th day often holding him out to match him against the best pitcher on the opposing team. Beginning in 1961 Ralph Houk began pitching him every 4th day. that is when he posted some of his best yearly results.

When the OP tried to list the best pitchers, I interpreted that to mean who had the best numbers over their entire career. To me that is the only basis for comparison. One does not ignore poor performance because it does not support their case. You could also argue who were the 5 best pitchers in their prime years - a totally different consideration.

Seaver had some rediculous ERA numbers in his best years (1.76 in '71 & 2.08 in '73). He was also a power pitcher while Whitey was a finess pitcher thus accounting for the dramtaic difference in strikeouts. You could argue that Seaver's prime years were better than Whitey's but I believe that Whitey was the more effective pitcher over his career.

 

[Knicks411]

When the OP tried to list the best pitchers, I interpreted that to mean who had the best numbers over their entire career. To me that is the only basis for comparison. One does not ignore poor performance because it does not support their case. You could also argue who were the 5 best pitchers in their prime years - a totally different consideration.

That's true, but we're talking about 1/10th of a run difference in ERA, compared to 50% more innings. If Seaver had retired after his first 3100 innings would you say he was better than Ford cause his ERA was 2.51 or whatever it was? The fact that Seaver was able to pitch into his 40's, to me, is more a sign of greatness, because most guys who pitch that long are pretty damn good. (Yeah, Mike Morgan, Jamie Moyer, I get it)

But even just look at the season averages. Would you rather have a pitcher with a 2.75 ERA and 198 IP (average Ford season, and like I said, that's probably not a great comp, I'd love to pull down the per 162 game numebrs if BBref has it) or 239 IP and a 2.85 ERA? I'd much rather have the second guy, those 40 innings are more valuable to me the .1 ERA difference. (The true difference is probably not 40 IP per season, maybe closer to 20-30?) If Ford pitched till he was 42, his ERA wouldn't be 2.75.

But if the raw innings are less of a factor, Pedro has to be on this list. 2.93 ERA in a much tougher era for hitters than either Ford or Seaver.

 

['72 Orange]

That's true, but we're talking about 1/10th of a run difference in ERA, compared to 50% more innings. If Seaver had retired after his first 3100 innings would you say he was better than Ford cause his ERA was 2.51 or whatever it was? The fact that Seaver was able to pitch into his 40's, to me, is more a sign of greatness, because most guys who pitch that long are pretty damn good. (Yeah, Mike Morgan, Jamie Moyer, I get it)

But even just look at the season averages. Would you rather have a pitcher with a 2.75 ERA and 198 IP (average Ford season, and like I said, that's probably not a great comp, I'd love to pull down the per 162 game numebrs if BBref has it) or 239 IP and a 2.85 ERA? I'd much rather have the second guy, those 40 innings are more valuable to me the .1 ERA difference. (The true difference is probably not 40 IP per season, maybe closer to 20-30?) If Ford pitched till he was 42, his ERA wouldn't be 2.75.

But if the raw innings are less of a factor, Pedro has to be on this list. 2.93 ERA in a much tougher era for hitters than either Ford or Seaver.

Whitey for his career (162 game average) IP was 230. Since he started to be pitched every 4th day in 1961 until 1965 he averaged 259 IP per season! Once again - the reason why Whitey has lower career IP numbers is that Stengel missued him for his first 9 seasons not be cause he was ineffective!
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players//fordwh01.shtml

Seaver's career 162 game average IP was 250.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/seaveto01.shtml

Call me crazy - but if I had to choose between these two guys to win one game for me in their prime, I would go with the Chairman of the Board! Other than these two I would pick either Sandy or Gibby to pitch that game!

 

[Knicks411]

Whitey for his career (162 game average) IP was 230. Since he started to be pitched every 4th day in 1961 until 1965 he averaged 259 IP per season! Once again - the reason why Whitey has lower career IP numbers is that Stengel missued him for his first 9 seasons not be cause he was ineffective!

Yeah I wasn't saying it was cause he was ineffective. But it's still innings he wasn't giving to the team that Seaver was.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players//fordwh01.shtml

Seaver's career 162 game average IP was 250.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/seaveto01.shtml

Thanks. I realized that is a little misleading, in the sense that Seaver won't get the credit for pitching more seasons. But even so, an extra 20-30 innings a year is pretty valuable.

Call me crazy - but if I had to choose between these two guys to win one game for me in their prime, I would go with the Chairman of the Board! Other than these two I would pick either Sandy or Gibby to pitch that game!

If I could pick any pitcher at their best to win a game give me Pedro from 99.

 

[bevosu]

. If I could pick any pitcher at their best to win a game give me Pedro from 99.

You never saw Koufax pitch in his prime?

 

[Knicks411]

You never saw Koufax pitch in his prime?

Unfortunately (forunately?) I'm not old enough to have seen him. But check Pedro's 99 numbers vs Koufax, and that's without adjusting for the fact that one guy was pitching in one of the most pitcher friendly environments in league history anf the other one of the least pitcher friendly environments in league history.

Edit: My fault, 2000 was the better year. 1.74 ERA in a league where the average ERA was 4.91. Koufax had a 1.74 ERA in 64 and 1.73 in 66, which were of course both amazing, but the league ERA was 3.61, and Dodger stadium was the best place on the planet to pitch.

The inning difference is huge, but in a one game scenario, that worries me much less

 

[bevosu]

I'm a Red Sox fan, and although the Yankees aren't my favorite team I love Whitey Ford. Needless to say I like Pedro a lot.

The reason I'd pick Koufax...I saw him pitch (on TV) when he was in his prime. He was amazing. The scariest curve ball I've ever seen. Came in hard, broke a ton (mostly down), and it was basically unhittable.

Give me Whitey, Pedro, Spahn, Gibson, Koufax...any one of them would be a good bet in an important game.

 

[Ghost]

I'm a Red Sox fan, and although the Yankees aren't my favorite team I love Whitey Ford. Needless to say I like Pedro a lot.

The reason I'd pick Koufax...I saw him pitch (on TV) when he was in his prime. He was amazing. The scariest curve ball I've ever seen. Came in hard, broke a ton (mostly down), and it was basically unhittable.

Give me Whitey, Pedro, Spahn, Gibson, Koufax...any one of them would be a good bet in an important game.

I'm a Yankees fan, and although the Red Sox aren't my favorite team - well, I still hate Pedro to be honest. With that being said, Pedro throughout their prime years was so much better than Maddux. Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much. It's almost laughable - almost as laughable as the strike zone the Braves' pitchers were provided in the 90s (and prolly most of the NL).

I would imagine you would agree. Maddux can't be top 5 - I'll try to work on my list, but I doubt I have him top 10 even.

 

[Crusty]

My top five are in no particular order: Sandy Koufax, Warren Spahn, Bob Gibson, Randy Johnson, Tom Seaver. Being a lefty, I am partial to lefties.

Spahn
Ford
Gibson
Koufax
Clemons

 

[victor]

I've got to admit. I did not check any stats. when I made my choices. I was going purely on recollection. One can make a case for Palmer, Carlton, Ford or Martinez. Not a big fan of Maddox. Tend to favor power pitchers and Maddox like Glavine as others have said was the recipient of a wide strike zone. I also remember the Yankee fans teasing Pedro with who's your daddy.