Top 5 pitchers going back to the 50's

[Knicks411]

I'm a Yankees fan, and although the Red Sox aren't my favorite team - well, I still hate Pedro to be honest. With that being said, Pedro throughout their prime years was so much better than Maddux. Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much. It's almost laughable - almost as laughable as the strike zone the Braves' pitchers were provided in the 90s (and prolly most of the NL).

I'll take Pedro at his best over anyone, but Maddux in 94/95 was pretty damn incredible. (He was incredible for a lot of other years but 94/95 was insane)

He had a 1.60 ERA over those 2 years. It's hard to do much better than that. (Even Koufax at his best, in much more favorable run environments, never went that low)

 

[Ghost]

I'll take Pedro at his best over anyone, but Maddux in 94/95 was pretty damn incredible. (He was incredible for a lot of other years but 94/95 was insane)

He had a 1.60 ERA over those 2 years. It's hard to do much better than that. (Even Koufax at his best, in much more favorable run environments, never went that low)

I don't know. 99/00 Pedro went 41-10, 2.07, 1.74 ERA.....and in the American League. It would be close, Maddux with a slight edge by numbers alone - but pitching in the AL w/ the DH gives Pedro the win imo.

 

[Toga]

There was an All-Star game where over a 2 inning stretch, Marichal faced a murderer's row of future Hall of Famers. He threw pitches that would make your jaw drop and turned in the most dominating (albeit brief) display of pitching I've ever seen before or since. It was like watching Secretariat in the Belmont.

While Tom Seaver had a very productive 20 year career, I would take Whitey Ford over him. Whitey won 69% of the games he pitched during the regular season 236W 106L and had a 2.75 career ERA. Tom Terrific won 60% of his regular season games 311W 205L and had a 2.86 ERA.

Another pitcher I think warrants consideration is Juan Marichal. 243W 142L 63% ERA 2.89 He also wasn't too bad with a bat. Just ask John Roseboro

n

 

[Knicks411]

I don't know. 99/00 Pedro went 41-10, 2.07, 1.74 ERA.....and in the American League. It would be close, Maddux with a slight edge by numbers alone - but pitching in the AL w/ the DH gives Pedro the win imo.

Don't get me wrong, I'm taking Pedro too. But I think it is closer than you made it out to be is all.

 

[SWC75]

You're a lefty and forget Whitey Ford?

He's a lefty and forgot Lefty. The two greatest years a starting pitcher has had in my lifetime were Steve Carleton's 1972, when he went 27-9 for a team that went 59-97 and Ron Guidry who went 25-3 in 1978, a year where 24-4, (Dwight Gooden and Roger Clemen's record in their greatest years), would not have been enough.

I agree that Marichal is under-rated and I'm not sure why. Through most of the 60's it was understood that Koufax was #1, Marichal #2 and everybody else lined up behind that. I think he may have been hurt because the Giants were a perennial second place team behind Koufax's Dodgers and then Gibson's Cardinals.

But one think you have to consider with the pitchers of the 60's is that Ford Frick, when Roger Maris broke the supposedly unbreakable home run record of his pal Babe Ruth, ordered that the pitcher's mound be raised and the strike zone enlarged, thus producing what has been called the "Second Dead Ball Era". The All-time composite major league batting average is .262. From 1963, when Frick's rulings were instituted until 1968, after which Bowie Kuhn lifted them,
the NL hit .245, .254, .249, .256, .249 and .243 while...
the AL hit .247, .247, .242, .240, .236 and .230.

 

[Toga]

Marichal had magical stuff and a leg kick of a Rockette.

 

['72 Orange]

Marichal had magical stuff and a leg kick of a Rockette.

That 16 inning complete game by Spahn & Marichal with the Giants winning 1-0 on Mays HR has to be the greatest single game accomplishment by 2 pitchers in MLB hitsory.

In that same game, Willie Mays threw out Norm Locker at the plate in the 4th inning to preserve the shutout and Warren Spahn hit a double in the 7th inning after Del Crandall (who singled) was thrown out at 2nd trying to steal.

Warren Spahn was one of the best hitting pitchers in baseball. His lifeitmg BA was .194 with 363 career hits and 35 HRs. In 1961 he hit .333 in 108 plate appearances!

 

[SWC75]

That 16 inning complete game by Spahn & Marichal with the Giants winning 1-0 on Mays HR has to be the greatest single game accomplishment by 2 pitchers in MLB hitsory.

In that same game, Willie Mays threw out Norm Locker at the plate in the 4th inning to preserve the shutout and Warren Spahn hit a double in the 7th inning after Del Crandall (who singled) was thrown out at 2nd trying to steal.

Warren Spahn was one of the best hitting pitchers in baseball. His lifeitmg BA was .194 with 363 career hits and 35 HRs. In 1961 he hit .333 in 108 plate appearances!

I think if he'd played every day, Spahn's batting numbers would have resembled that of a utility infielder. His batitng average would be higher, maybe by 40-50 points. 35 home runs in 2056 plate appearances is average power.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/spahnwa01.shtml

The other good hitting pitchers they used to talk about back then were Red Ruffing, Wes Ferrell and Bob Lemon. (Yes, we know Babe Ruth was a pitcher: we are talking about guys primarily known as pitchers). Looking at their records:

Ruffing is very erratic, a .300 hitter several times but mediocre in others with similar power to Spahn:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/ruffire01.shtml

Lemon is a legitimate power hitter but didn't hit for a high average:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lemonbo01.shtml
Bob used to pinch-hit for his light-hitting catcher, Jim Hegan, (when Bob wasn't pitching, obviously).

Ferrell is the best of these:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players//ferrewe01.shtml
Solid averages, at least through his prime with real power. He was also a better hitter than a catcher, his brother Rick, who for some reason is in the Hall of Fame but not Wes.

They say the real reason Babe Ruth stopped pitching is that the preparation and post game routine interfered with his night-life. He could have been a 700 home run man AND a 300 game winner.

 

[Toga]

I think it was in the late 60s, the Syracuse Chiefs had (very good) pitcher named Willie Smith who had a cup of coffee with the Tigers. Recall he was the best hitter on the Chiefs.

I think if he'd played every day, Spahn's batting numbers would have resembled that of a utility infielder. His batitng average would be higher, maybe by 40-50 points. 35 home runs in 2056 plate appearances is average power.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/spahnwa01.shtml

The other good hitting pitchers they used to talk about back then were Red Ruffing, Wes Ferrell and Bob Lemon. (Yes, we know Babe Ruth was a pitcher: we are talking about guys primarily known as pitchers). Looking at their records:

Ruffing is very erratic, a .300 hitter several times but mediocre in others with similar power to Spahn:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/ruffire01.shtml

Lemon is a legitimate power hitter but didn't hit for a high average:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lemonbo01.shtml
Bob used to pinch-hit for his light-hitting catcher, Jim Hegan, (when Bob wasn't pitching, obviously).

Ferrell is the best of these:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players//ferrewe01.shtml
Solid averages, at least through his prime with real power. He was also a better hitter than a catcher, his brother Rick, who for some reason is in the Hall of Fame but not Wes.

They say the real reason Babe Ruth stopped pitching is that the preparation and post game routine interfered with his night-life. He could have been a 700 home run man AND a 300 game winner.

 

[SWC75]

I think it was in the late 60s, the Syracuse Chiefs had (very good) pitcher named Willie Smith who had a cup of coffee with the Tigers. Recall he was the best hitter on the Chiefs.

Wonderous Willie. In 1963, he batted .380 while going 14-2!!!!
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=smith-043wil

 

[longtimefan]

There was an All-Star game where over a 2 inning stretch, Marichal faced a murderer's row of future Hall of Famers. He threw pitches that would make your jaw drop and turned in the most dominating (albeit brief) display of pitching I've ever seen before or since. It was like watching Secretariat in the Belmont.


n

Interesting comment on "murderers row of hall of famers". Because the National League had more HOF players at that time, and it wasn't close. Mays, Aaron, Robinson (didn't go to O's until '66), Clemente, McCovey, Cepeda, Mathews, etc.

But the All-Star reference harkens back to the best pitching performance ever on that stage: 1934, when Carl Hubbell struck out 5 HOFer's in a row--Ruth, Gehrig, Foxx, Simmons, Cronin.