Us: some unpopular thoughts.

[SWC75]

Okay, so, six losses.

• Each loss has been to a team with inferior personnel.
• In our 22 wins, we have not defeated a team with equal or superior talent.

Jimmy must be a heck of a recruiter. We are 22-6 and 10-5 in the Big East. But we should have been way better.

I'm actually surprised our record and ranking has been as high as it has been with this bunch.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Jimmy must be a heck of a recruiter. We are 22-6 and 10-5 in the Big East. But we should have been way better.

I'm actually surprised our record and ranking has been as high as it has been with this bunch.

I think your last sentence is pretty spot on. Sure, everybody and the recruitniks probably overvalued some guys but this team has serious flaws. Pretty lucky we are where we are and if we can right the ship somehow then JB will deserve lots of credit.

This team is not overly quick at the guard spots. Cadougan was getting free passes into the lane. When you can't shoot and can't score in the post then you have to shoot jumpers and just hope for the best, I guess. Heck, some shrimpy first round Tourney opponent may go zone against us.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

These teams don't have inferior talent. SU's talent is, unfortunately, overrated. Guys can do certain things, but have glaring weaknesses, which the opposition has no problem exposing (shooting, ball handling, interior play). We have some tall, athletic players that tantalize with the occasional highlight reel play, yet struggle so mightily with such important aspects of the game like jump shooting and being strong with the ball. The teams we've lost to take advantage of our weaknesses and have enough talent to overcome. They aren't inferior in terms of talent...

They absolutely do have inferior talent. At least, at the time they step onto their respective campuses. We can't just say all the recruiting experts and JB were wrong and over-regarded them. Some fault has to come in what is done with them after they arrive. And, i think you're incidentally corroborating my point — those other coaches do more with meager talent than JB does with better talent. If we had Notre Dame's or Pitt's or Georgetown's, or Temple's, or Marquette's recruiting classes over the last four years, we would have screamed that JB was done — no longer able to bring in the talent we need. JB+staff keep us in 'good' stead with the recruiting. Not necessarily the coaching.

And the other teams are all, certainly, more disciplined. It's one thing to say that JB "lets his guys play," and we all love an alley-oop. But, that needs to be balanced with some intellectual understanding. Against GT, for instance, MCW and James combined on that pretty tossback and long bomb. It was a showcase play.

But, then, everyone seemed to feel like that's what we should be doing. Making highlights, instead of playing solid, smart basketball. We fall in love with ourselves, and everyone, save Keita, seems to have that typical SU sense of entitlement. Kinda feels to me like the rich kids versus the poor kids, and the poor kids are going to scrap and claw, while we 'expect' and 'wait' and play around. Not just in games. In preparation. Weak analogy, i know, but it's what often comes to mind while watching us.

 

[capeorange]

Good and accurate post, thanks.

 

[bpo57]

You make several excellent points. My one quibble is that, like many here, you overrate our talent when you talk about losing to inferior personnel. Don't get me wrong- this has not been JB's best year but plenty of flaws with this team. Obviously our bigs have been very unproductive. Show me a team where all three guards shoot below 30% from three. JS is pretty good from three but is a one trick pony who is a weak defender and mediocre rebounder. Our PG is wildly inconsistent and very bothered by smaller defenders who get in his grill. We're pretty good on defense but get exposed by teams that are patient to probe inside. Most of our players are role players and not guys that can carry a big load.

 

[bpo57]

Jimmy must be a heck of a recruiter. We are 22-6 and 10-5 in the Big East. But we should have been way better.

I'm actually surprised our record and ranking has been as high as it has been with this bunch.

I tend to agree with you but would also explain the 22 wins to some degree as a byproduct of a soft schedule. The OOC was weak and there are plenty of softies in the BE.

 

[billsin01]

I agree with some parts of your post (limited playbook, apparent regression, Triche's frustrating shooting, awful performance in the last 9 games, etc). But there are some things to take issue with. Such as:

Okay, so, six losses.

• Each loss has been to a team with inferior personnel.
• In our 22 wins, we have not defeated a team with equal or superior talent. Louisville is borderline, but player-f0r-player, before the season started, i would certainly rather have our guys than theirs. We can say that, because we have talent, we don't often come up against 'better' teams. But, when was the last time we actually upset someone/beat a clearly better team? I can't remember that occasion. That says something, to me, about coaching. On the other hand, it's a credit to our recruiting, but, then you've gotta switch back to the other hand...

But couldn't this be because we A) overvalue our own players and B) schedule relatively soft and play pretty well early in the season, which inflates our ranking and sense of self-worth? I mean, Louisville is a perfect example -- they went to the final four last year and returned everyone, including a low-post scoring threat (behanan), a play-maker who is a streaky shooter but a handful for every opponent (russ smith), and a guy who quietly dominates games on the glass and in the paint (Dieng). I mean, even Siva vs. MCW, which looked lopsided in our favor early in the season, isn't a huge gap. I'm not the world's biggest siva fan, but 2:1 assist/TO ratio along with 43% from the floor and 33% (by far better than MCW and Triche) from 3 look pretty good right now.

• I love James. I'm kinda sick of the James-off-the-bench trick. It's not working. Just because we do win a game doesn't mean that strategy is working. Maybe it was cute with Dion, but Dion put himself in the situation where JB didn't want to start him. And we had the luxury of a super-deep team. That doesn't apply this year. Put your best five out there and let them build chemistry, timing, and confidence. It's not as if we have an overabundance of scoring options out there.

I'm not sure I buy some sort of direct line between James coming off the bench and cohesion. I mean, the dude has logged 27 minutes per game this season. That average would probably be closer to 30 had he not missed the six games due to academic suspension. I'm pretty sure that's plenty of time to build cohesion.

• MCW just isn't learning. That jump-to-pass thing... Here's a riddle: How many weeks does it take a Hall of Fame coach to rid him of that tendency? You've got JB, Red, Hop, and GMac — all guards, and MCW is still trying to make a play that would get you benched in a CYO league.

This is the kind of stuff that makes message board posters like us look ridiculous. Are you insinuating that JB hasn't "strongly urged" MCW to lay off the atrocious jump-passes? Do you suggest that he should be benching him in favor of Trevor Cooney? Aren't there a lot of things kids all around college hoops do that would get you benched in CYO? Giving up the baseline on a drive, not boxing out, going up with the right hand on the left side of the basket ... "It's not as simple as saying don't do it or you're benched."

 

[BlackSquirrels]

Okay, so, six losses.

• Each loss has been to a team with inferior personnel.

I disagree, Pitt has similar talent and that game was on the road. This is why Syracuse was a 3-point underdog. Plus, while I'd rate Syracuse's talent to be better than that of teams like UConn and Marquette, home court advantage matters in college hoops.

• In our 22 wins, we have not defeated a team with equal or superior talent. Louisville is borderline, but player-f0r-player, before the season started, i would certainly rather have our guys than theirs. We can say that, because we have talent, we don't often come up against 'better' teams. But, when was the last time we actually upset someone/beat a clearly better team? I can't remember that occasion. That says something, to me, about coaching. On the other hand, it's a credit to our recruiting, but, then you've gotta switch back to the other hand...

I would take Louisville's roster over Syracuse's. I don't know if you could have found anyone who would have "certainly" taken UL's roster over the Cuse during the preseason. That is why Louisville was rated ahead of Syracuse in polls and Ken Pomeroy's projections.

• It's easy as to say that 'guys aren't hitting shots,' but if you're giving JB credit for 900 wins, you've got to suggest that he's got to put people in the right mindset and position to do well what they're capable of, and to prepare them to compete. Other teams are just out-hustling us. Out-toughing us. And beating us at our own game.

I'd say Cuse was outhustled at UConn and maybe a little last night, although SU has no one who can deal with Gardner. Teams are beating SU at its own game with zone because it's a logical strategy to employ against a team with guards shooting under 30% on 3s.

• We're seeing blatant regression, not development. It was fun (for some) to watch us feast on early season chum, but maybe we could have learned these lessons sooner, and had more time to re-evaluate and develop in advance of the tournaments.

I would like to see Cuse play better teams before Big East play.

• How much of this has to do with the fact that we, traditionally, have such a limited offensive playbook? How difficult is it to us? We're seeing that BE teams 'have our book' and the more frustrated we get with our inefficiency and ineptitude, the more our shortcomings come to light and are exacerbated.

Probably very little. SU has the #2 offense in points/possession in Big East play.

• What was up with Triche tonight? So far off on so many jumpers. Did he hurt his hand in the previous game?

I don't know.

• Hire Coleman or Warrick to coach the bigs. Immediately, if not sooner. Someone. Anyone.

It sounds good in theory, but when you consider that assistant coaches must have excellent recruiting connections and Coleman and Warrick have no coaching experience, I doubt this is the panacea that others seem to believe.

• I love James. I'm kinda sick of the James-off-the-bench trick. It's not working. Just because we do win a game doesn't mean that strategy is working. Maybe it was cute with Dion, but Dion put himself in the situation where JB didn't want to start him. And we had the luxury of a super-deep team. That doesn't apply this year. Put your best five out there and let them build chemistry, timing, and confidence. It's not as if we have an overabundance of scoring options out there.

Southerland plays plenty of minutes--I don't care if some of them don't come at the start of the game.

• CJ is clearly our best player, and yet it never seems as if he's our #1 option. He's a 'quiet player,' but maybe he out to be featured more. He's a 'go-to-guy' who only seems 'gone-to' in an incidental sense. Treat him like our star.

That's much easier said than done when the opponent is playing a packed-in zone and Fair normally needs the ball within 15 feet of the basket to operate.

• MCW just isn't learning. That jump-to-pass thing... Here's a riddle: How many weeks does it take a Hall of Fame coach to rid him of that tendency? You've got JB, Red, Hop, and GMac — all guards, and MCW is still trying to make a play that would get you benched in a CYO league.

At the highest levels of basketball against elite defenses, sometimes a player needs to jump to complete a pass. It doesn't always mean it's the prudent decision.

• What are we? 4 and 5 in our last 9 games? Just not acceptable, considering who we have, versus who we've been playing.

Teams go through slumps.

• Vindicating Gottleib turns my stomach.

I don't mind Gottlieb that much.

 

[thebigeast44]

Louisville was the top rated team coming into this season in the BE. While SU has recruited well of late, we still are not one of the elite programs in college basketball on par with Duke, NC, Kansas, Kentucky etc. There is not a huge talent gap between us and the teams that have beaten us this year. We have not lost to a sub top 54 RPI team all year. Can't say that about many other top 20 teams this year who have lost to worse teams. Give some credit to our opponents. No program in college basketball goes undefeated. Not even Kentucky who gets the best recruiting classes every year. Every team this year has flaws and we're one of them. I'm frustrated as well and I'm sure JB is with some of our play this year. And most every other top team's fans this year could say the same about their team. Let's Go Orange!

 

[kingtidge]

Great post.
Hustle for loose balls. Rebound like your life depends on it. Show some alertness.

This it what bothers me the most...

The final 8 minutes yesterday...

We were soft, lazy and unfocused.

We should have had heel-on-throat and we got outhustled and were soft on D... leading to fouls and multiple stripe visits for marquette...

Marquette simply wanted it more and took over the game and took us behind the woodshed down the stretch.

Losing happens, but that losing that way was feeble.

 

[bpo57]

Louisville was the top rated team coming into this season in the BE. While SU has recruited well of late, we still are not one of the elite programs in college basketball on par with Duke, NC, Kansas, Kentucky etc. There is not a huge talent gap between us and the teams that have beaten us this year. We have not lost to a sub top 54 RPI team all year. Can't say that about many other top 20 teams this year who have lost to worse teams. Give some credit to our opponents. No program in college basketball goes undefeated. Not even Kentucky who gets the best recruiting classes every year. Every team this year has flaws and we're one of them. I'm frustrated as well and I'm sure JB is with some of our play this year. And most every other top team's fans this year could say the same about their team. Let's Go Orange!

On the other hand we only have three wins against top 50 RPI teams.

 

[realorange]

You make several excellent points. My one quibble is that, like many here, you overrate our talent when you talk about losing to inferior personnel. Don't get me wrong- this has not been JB's best year but plenty of flaws with this team. Obviously our bigs have been very unproductive. Show me a team where all three guards shoot below 30% from three. JS is pretty good from three but is a one trick pony who is a weak defender and mediocre rebounder. Our PG is wildly inconsistent and very bothered by smaller defenders who get in his grill. We're pretty good on defense but get exposed by teams that are patient to probe inside. Most of our players are role players and not guys that can carry a big load.

As has been said several times, we are a flawed team. Triche is not the player we adorned him to be. For whatever reason, he is not capable of turning on his potential.
MCW is simply finding it is more difficult to play against good players every night and ones with far more game experience than he has.
Christmas is unfortunately, much like he was as a high school player. A guy with very good athleticism, but one who takes time off at the strangest moments. It was said by one of the broadcasters a couple of games ago that Hop has tried a lot of things to try and motivate Roc, but obviously hasn't hit a hot button.
JS is, as bpo indicated, a one trick pony. It's why I've said for weeks that if he isn't hitting the trey, bring on Jerami. Of course you have to figure how much time you're going to give JS to see if it's his night.
Jerami only lacks experience. High BB IQ, great motor and athleticism.
Trevor simply needs playing time.
BMK is a good reserve.
Thank goodness for CJ. As consistent a player as Syracuse has ever had. Another high BB IQ. I'll go so far as to say that he will be an AA next year and maybe should be one this year.
All in all, a great team to watch when things are clicking like the Providence game and a team that will tear your heart out when things aren't.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

I disagree, Pitt has similar talent and that game was on the road. This is why Syracuse was a 3-point underdog. Plus, while I'd rate Syracuse's talent to be better than that of teams like UConn and Marquette, home court advantage matters in college hoops.

I would take Louisville's roster over Syracuse's. I don't know if you could have found anyone who would have "certainly" taken UL's roster over the Cuse during the preseason. That is why Louisville was rated ahead of Syracuse in polls and Ken Pomeroy's projections.

I'd say Cuse was outhustled at UConn and maybe a little last night, although SU has no one who can deal with Gardner. Teams are beating SU at its own game with zone because it's a logical strategy to employ against a team with guards shooting under 30% on 3s.

I think, perhaps, i'm not stating some things as simply as i should.

Of course these teams are on equal ground with us at this point. The games are competitive, at least. What i'm saying is that (not sure how to best put this, but...):
• Put on your time travel beanie. Go back to each of the past four years. Take each recruit, before they step onto each of their respective campuses — before they get into the hands of their coaches. Compile the list of those recruits for those four years.
• Without remembering how they have developed or haven't developed, i'm saying our list of players coming in over those four years is significantly greater in talent than what the other teams offer.
• The fact that those other teams can be competitive with us and beat us during those four years is a testament to the work, preparation, and hustle those other teams display. I'm suggesting those other teams do more with their talent than we do with ours.

Marquette's players (no disrespect meant) wouldn't be starters on our team. We wouldn't/didn't(?) recruit them. Same with Pitt. Definitely Temple...

Louisville was rated ahead of us because of many factors post-matriculation/development.

Saying that our guards shot 30% is sort of the point, as well. Why are highly regarded players shooting 30%? There was nothing in their high school games to suggest they'd have these struggles now. I completely understand streaks, and sample sizes and the like. I'm essentially pointing to examples like Duke and Carolina — teams that traditionally have a huge recruiting advantage versus the rest of their conferences, and who traditionally finish (nearly) 1-2 in those conferences. We (along with UConn) have owned recruiting in the conference, and have finished on average below 4th over the past 15 years. That owes a great deal to greater parity and deeper competition in the BE versus ACC, but still — my point remains — our results don't match the talent.

Again — i'm trying to make a point simply, and i'm ignoring a lot. I'm citing only one 'real' statistic, one that means a lot to me, knowing that anyone can find a statistic to match his point of view. I'm going strictly on the 'eye test,' because there is no empirical way to quantify talent...

 

[timkay99]

Move GMac to Tim O'Toole's current position (sorry Tim) and hire a big man coach who preferably has NO Syracuse ties. We need fresh opinions on the bench.

I really, really doubt that Boeheim is going to demote a player that he recruited and helped him win the National Championship. For the simple reason of the ill will it would create when he is getting ready to retire.

I think this is the staff Cuse will have until JB retires or someone gets plucked for another job.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Okay, so, six losses.

• Each loss has been to a team with inferior personnel.
• In our 22 wins, we have not defeated a team with equal or superior talent. Louisville is borderline, but player-f0r-player, before the season started, i would certainly rather have our guys than theirs. We can say that, because we have talent, we don't often come up against 'better' teams. But, when was the last time we actually upset someone/beat a clearly better team? I can't remember that occasion. That says something, to me, about coaching. On the other hand, it's a credit to our recruiting, but, then you've gotta switch back to the other hand...
• It's easy as to say that 'guys aren't hitting shots,' but if you're giving JB credit for 900 wins, you've got to suggest that he's got to put people in the right mindset and position to do well what they're capable of, and to prepare them to compete. Other teams are just out-hustling us. Out-toughing us. And beating us at our own game.
• We're seeing blatant regression, not development. It was fun (for some) to watch us feast on early season chum, but maybe we could have learned these lessons sooner, and had more time to re-evaluate and develop in advance of the tournaments.
• How much of this has to do with the fact that we, traditionally, have such a limited offensive playbook? How difficult is it to us? We're seeing that BE teams 'have our book' and the more frustrated we get with our inefficiency and ineptitude, the more our shortcomings come to light and are exacerbated.
• What was up with Triche tonight? So far off on so many jumpers. Did he hurt his hand in the previous game?
• Hire Coleman or Warrick to coach the bigs. Immediately, if not sooner. Someone. Anyone.
• I love James. I'm kinda sick of the James-off-the-bench trick. It's not working. Just because we do win a game doesn't mean that strategy is working. Maybe it was cute with Dion, but Dion put himself in the situation where JB didn't want to start him. And we had the luxury of a super-deep team. That doesn't apply this year. Put your best five out there and let them build chemistry, timing, and confidence. It's not as if we have an overabundance of scoring options out there.
• CJ is clearly our best player, and yet it never seems as if he's our #1 option. He's a 'quiet player,' but maybe he out to be featured more. He's a 'go-to-guy' who only seems 'gone-to' in an incidental sense. Treat him like our star.
• MCW just isn't learning. That jump-to-pass thing... Here's a riddle: How many weeks does it take a Hall of Fame coach to rid him of that tendency? You've got JB, Red, Hop, and GMac — all guards, and MCW is still trying to make a play that would get you benched in a CYO league.
• What are we? 4 and 5 in our last 9 games? Just not acceptable, considering who we have, versus who we've been playing.
• Vindicating Gottleib turns my stomach.

Lots of good observations here. Let me respond to a few.

I agree that the team has regressed recently. I think there are a couple things at play. One is that JB has been trying to encourage Brandon to be more assertive, and Brandon isn't up to the pressure. Poor man management by JB. If he had done the same thing to Wes Johnson, I don't think he would have responded well, either.

Neither one has that alpha dog mentality, but both are exceptional complementary players. We lack an alpha dog on offense this year - that guy you can rely on to get you a basket or get to the line in a tough spot.

"James off the bench" is only for the first half now, and that's to give Grant 5 to 7 minutes to try to impact the game. If he can make a few plays, JB will be able to use him again in the second half. If he doesn't make anything positive happen, he probably won't play again in the second half unless somebody gets into foul trouble, or things are going bad and he needs to shake things up in the front court.

That's why you don't see Cooney in the second half unless somebody is pressing us and a player is gassed or gets into foul trouble. He's just too undependable and the games are way too important right now. Cooney is unbelievable that he can miss by so much AFTER he's made a shot. You think with most guys, they get one and they settle down. Cooney is just as likely to throw up an airball after making a three and he is to even hit rim on the next one. I absolutely cannot see this kid starting next year. Somebody else will have to step up. He could share the position, like Triche and Scoop once shared the point when they were both young players. But he can't handle it for 30+ minutes next year. Just too erratic. He plays with effort, but he was hyperactive out there on defense, and actually kind of messed up our defensive balance/positioning and rotations by over-chasing guys a couple times until he was out of position.

Geez, I can't believe Mike is jumping on his passes so damn much. How many times did he throw it away when either jumping or trying to make a back pass after driving? Rookie mistakes. He really needs another year, but some team will pay him. He's a D League player right now, if he's lucky. How many teams want a guy who gets rattled, has an insecure handle, jumps in the air with no idea what he's going to do with the ball, and shoots under 30% from the field? You are absolutely right on that one. Driving me crazy. This teams is on the verge of a big collapse after such a great start to the season. These kids have fragile psyches and fragile chemistry, and all the media attention Mike got back in December, like he was a better version of Sherman Douglas, really messed up the chemistry this team was developing, and then of course James getting suspended for 6 games kind of blew things up. Two or three games wouldn't have hurt as much, but James missed 3 to 4 weeks of games. That hurt a lot.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Okay, so, six losses.

• Each loss has been to a team with inferior personnel.
• In our 22 wins, we have not defeated a team with equal or superior talent. Louisville is borderline, but player-f0r-player, before the season started, i would certainly rather have our guys than theirs. We can say that, because we have talent, we don't often come up against 'better' teams. But, when was the last time we actually upset someone/beat a clearly better team? I can't remember that occasion. That says something, to me, about coaching. On the other hand, it's a credit to our recruiting, but, then you've gotta switch back to the other hand...
• It's easy as to say that 'guys aren't hitting shots,' but if you're giving JB credit for 900 wins, you've got to suggest that he's got to put people in the right mindset and position to do well what they're capable of, and to prepare them to compete. Other teams are just out-hustling us. Out-toughing us. And beating us at our own game.
• We're seeing blatant regression, not development. It was fun (for some) to watch us feast on early season chum, but maybe we could have learned these lessons sooner, and had more time to re-evaluate and develop in advance of the tournaments.
• How much of this has to do with the fact that we, traditionally, have such a limited offensive playbook? How difficult is it to us? We're seeing that BE teams 'have our book' and the more frustrated we get with our inefficiency and ineptitude, the more our shortcomings come to light and are exacerbated.
• What was up with Triche tonight? So far off on so many jumpers. Did he hurt his hand in the previous game?
• Hire Coleman or Warrick to coach the bigs. Immediately, if not sooner. Someone. Anyone.
• I love James. I'm kinda sick of the James-off-the-bench trick. It's not working. Just because we do win a game doesn't mean that strategy is working. Maybe it was cute with Dion, but Dion put himself in the situation where JB didn't want to start him. And we had the luxury of a super-deep team. That doesn't apply this year. Put your best five out there and let them build chemistry, timing, and confidence. It's not as if we have an overabundance of scoring options out there.
• CJ is clearly our best player, and yet it never seems as if he's our #1 option. He's a 'quiet player,' but maybe he out to be featured more. He's a 'go-to-guy' who only seems 'gone-to' in an incidental sense. Treat him like our star.
• MCW just isn't learning. That jump-to-pass thing... Here's a riddle: How many weeks does it take a Hall of Fame coach to rid him of that tendency? You've got JB, Red, Hop, and GMac — all guards, and MCW is still trying to make a play that would get you benched in a CYO league.
• What are we? 4 and 5 in our last 9 games? Just not acceptable, considering who we have, versus who we've been playing.
• Vindicating Gottleib turns my stomach.

Dieng, Bohanan and Smith all start at SU with Fair and MCW.
You over rate our players.

Sent from my SCH-I200 using Tapatalk 2

 

[BlackSquirrels]

I think, perhaps, i'm not stating some things as simply as i should.

Of course these teams are on equal ground with us at this point. The games are competitive, at least. What i'm saying is that (not sure how to best put this, but...):
• Put on your time travel beanie. Go back to each of the past four years. Take each recruit, before they step onto each of their respective campuses — before they get into the hands of their coaches. Compile the list of those recruits for those four years.
• Without remembering how they have developed or haven't developed, i'm saying our list of players coming in over those four years is significantly greater in talent than what the other teams offer.
• The fact that those other teams can be competitive with us and beat us during those four years is a testament to the work, preparation, and hustle those other teams display. I'm suggesting those other teams do more with their talent than we do with ours.

Marquette's players (no disrespect meant) wouldn't be starters on our team. We wouldn't/didn't(?) recruit them. Same with Pitt. Definitely Temple...

Louisville was rated ahead of us because of many factors post-matriculation/development.

Saying that our guards shot 30% is sort of the point, as well. Why are highly regarded players shooting 30%? There was nothing in their high school games to suggest they'd have these struggles now. I completely understand streaks, and sample sizes and the like. I'm essentially pointing to examples like Duke and Carolina — teams that traditionally have a huge recruiting advantage versus the rest of their conferences, and who traditionally finish (nearly) 1-2 in those conferences. We (along with UConn) have owned recruiting in the conference, and have finished on average below 4th over the past 15 years. That owes a great deal to greater parity and deeper competition in the BE versus ACC, but still — my point remains — our results don't match the talent.

Again — i'm trying to make a point simply, and i'm ignoring a lot. I'm citing only one 'real' statistic, one that means a lot to me, knowing that anyone can find a statistic to match his point of view. I'm going strictly on the 'eye test,' because there is no empirical way to quantify talent...

Well you have your own "eye test" and have already made up your mind that SU's players had superior talent to their opponents when they arrived on campus. However, I scanned through the final rankings of rscihoops.com for the classes of 2008-12 for various teams in the Big East. I list the teams and the players I saw below, with the players' rankings in parentheses. Players are listed in reverse chronological order.

Syracuse: Coleman (18), Grant (41), Christmas (21), MCW (25), Cooney (79), Fair (96)
Pitt: Adams (5), Robinson (63), Ziegler (29), Moore (67), Taylor (13), Zanna (89)
Louisville: Harrell (85), Behanan (24), Blackshear (26), Price (58), Ware (74), Dieng (69), Siva (27)
Marquette: Taylor (82), Anderson (81), Blue (48), Wilson (40), Cadougan (47)
Georgetown: Smith-Rivera (37), Porter (34), Hopkins (98), Lubick (42), Starks (94)

Again, I think you are overestimating Syracuse's talent. I'd say you can certainly argue Louisville and Pitt have better rosters this year, with Marquette and Georgetown a slight notch below.

Why are they competitive with SU this year? I would say that SU's coaches mistakenly projected that Triche and MCW would be at least average 3-point shooters this year and that Coleman would be able to offer some low-post production. On the other hand, Marquette and Georgetown have probably benefited from guys like Gardner and Porter developing into even better players than their respective coaching staffs hoped for. These things happen.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Well you have your own "eye test" and have already made up your mind that SU's players had superior talent to their opponents when they arrived on campus. However, I scanned through the final rankings of rscihoops.com for the classes of 2008-12 for various teams in the Big East. I list the teams and the players I saw below, with the players' rankings in parentheses. Players are listed in reverse chronological order.

Syracuse: Coleman (18), Grant (41), Christmas (21), MCW (25), Cooney (79), Fair (96)
Pitt: Adams (5), Robinson (63), Ziegler (29), Moore (67), Taylor (13), Zanna (89)
Louisville: Harrell (85), Behanan (24), Blackshear (26), Price (58), Ware (74), Dieng (69), Siva (27)
Marquette: Taylor (82), Anderson (81), Blue (48), Wilson (40), Cadougan (47)
Georgetown: Smith-Rivera (37), Porter (34), Hopkins (98), Lubick (42), Starks (94)

Again, I think you are overestimating Syracuse's talent. I'd say you can certainly argue Louisville and Pitt have better rosters this year, with Marquette and Georgetown a slight notch below.

Why are they competitive with SU this year? I would say that SU's coaches mistakenly projected that Triche and MCW would be at least average 3-point shooters this year and that Coleman would be able to offer some low-post production. On the other hand, Marquette and Georgetown have probably benefited from guys like Gardner and Porter developing into even better players than their respective coaching staffs hoped for. These things happen.

True. Not to mention Cooney's struggles and lets face it; ALL the recruitniks and probably many coaches missed and overvalued Rak. Also, James Robinson (Grant's teammate) was a high ranked recruit.