Want to see the biggest dropoff statistically since the Duke win

[Jack Hall]

Number of assists per game and shooting percentage. Think the two are related? Which came first the chicken or the egg?

 

[STEVEHOLT]

well, many assists are simply the result of swing passes leading to made jumpers. so if you stop hitting those jumpers, you dont get the assists even if you are still sharing the ball just as well.

 

[Jack Hall]

well, many assists are simply the result of swing passes leading to made jumpers. so if you stop hitting those jumpers, you dont get the assists even if you are still sharing the ball just as well.

I agree but thats just part if it. So our assists went from 16 a game to 8 a game simply because of missed shots. Maybe maybe not. What i do is basically the only guy making assists since Duke gam

 

[Jack Hall]

....Since Duke game is Tyler (altho Grant did have two nice alley oops to Ric the last two games). The passing is a problem

 

[orangedave]

Number of assists per game and shooting percentage. Think the two are related? Which came first the chicken or the egg?

There are no assists awarded for missed shots.

 

[orangedave]

...Since Duke game is Tyler (altho Grant did have two nice alley oops to Ric the last two games). The passing is a problem

Shooting is the problem.

 

[jncuse]

I don't think its purely the shooting (that is part of it). But we are making no effort to generate better looks, after ACC teams have adjusted to us. We don't run a good offence (in part due to roster limitations)

The quality of shot is just as important.

 

[orangedave]

I don't think its purely the shooting (that is part of it). But we are making no effort to generate better looks, after ACC teams have adjusted to us. We don't run a good offence (in part due to roster limitations)

The quality of shot is just as important.

I agree that's part of it but last night we took a lot of good shots that just didn't fall. Some seemed like they were halfway down the cylinder and then came out.
Also, wouldn't he number of assists go down when our leading assist maker is, by necessity, forced to become a primary scorer?

 

[SWC75]

The shooter assists the passer in getting the assist as much as the passer assists the shooter in getting the basket.

 

[SBU72]

First if you miss 2 thirds more shots than you make, assists go down. And when the point guard starts doubling the number of shots he takes, he doesn't get an assist for those he makes.

 

[Coach Orange]

Good spacing, player movement, and ball movement usually lead to better, more meaningful passes. These passes usually cause higher percentage shots to be taken. Still, those shots have to be made (to SWC's point). Even then, making shots doesn't guarantee more assists--to be awarded an assist, the pass has to lead directly to a field goal. Hence, assists are ultimately subjectively determined; the official scorer has to decide what passes lead directly to a score and which do not.

That said, teams that effectively space the floor, move the ball, and move without the ball often get better looks generated by better passes. Since Syracuse doesn't shoot well, lacks a true "star" player, and doesn't possess outstanding one-on-one scorers, it should stress creating higher percentage shots through spacing and movement.

Unfortunately, the team hasn't consistently utilized these skills. As a result, the scoring numbers and assists have declined.

 

[007]

Good spacing, player movement, and ball movement usually lead to better, more meaningful passes. These passes usually cause higher percentage shots to be taken. Still, those shots have to be made (to SWC's point). Even then, making shots doesn't guarantee more assists--to be awarded an assist, the pass has to lead directly to a field goal. Hence, assists are ultimately subjectively determined; the official scorer has to decide what passes lead directly to a score and which do not.

That said, teams that effectively space the floor, move the ball, and move without the ball often get better looks generated by better passes. Since Syracuse doesn't shoot well, lacks a true "star" player, and doesn't possess outstanding one-on-one scorers, it should stress creating higher percentage shots through spacing and movement.

Unfortunately, the team hasn't consistently utilized these skills. As a result, the scoring numbers and assists have declined.

Or, the team is getting the same "decent" looks that it has gotten since the start of conference play and is missing those same shots with such consistency that the creation of even "higher percentage" shots is almost irrelevant. With the exception of shooting lay ups created by fast break opportunities, or off of turnovers, where are those higher percentage shots going to come from?

I am not trying to be argumentative here. Obviously, you have coached. At the end of the day, as you have probably also experienced in your career, this team has to make a higher percentage of the good shots they are already getting. The impact of floor spacing and movement will only get you so far because this team lacks a legitimate inside scoring threat which makes it much easier for any good team to defend options created by what you suggest. This is further compounded by the fact that other teams only have to defend one legitimate deep threat - Cooney.

No amount of movement or floor spacing is going to significantly improve the quality of the shots SU will get when you have no interior scoring threat and only one deep shooting threat to defend, IMO.

It is going to come down SU managing to shoot greater than 40-42% on the shots it is already getting, IMO.

 

[Coach Orange]

Or, the team is getting the same "decent" looks that it has gotten since the start of conference play and is missing those same shots with such consistency that the creation of even "higher percentage" shots is almost irrelevant. With the exception of shooting lay ups created by fast break opportunities, or off of turnovers, where are those higher percentage shots going to come from?

I am not trying to be argumentative here. Obviously, you have coached. At the end of the day, as you have probably also experienced in your career, this team has to make a higher percentage of the good shots they are already getting. The impact of floor spacing and movement will only get you so far because this team lacks a legitimate inside scoring threat which makes it much easier for any good team to defend options created by what you suggest. This is further compounded by the fact that other teams only have to defend one legitimate deep threat - Cooney.

No amount of movement or floor spacing is going to significantly improve the quality of the shots SU will get when you have no interior scoring threat and only one deep shooting threat to defend, IMO.

It is going to come down SU managing to shoot greater than 40-42% on the shots it is already getting, IMO.

I appreciate your thoughts here. Though there is some truth in what you're saying, there are ways to get higher percentage shots (layups/dunks, less contested jumpers, free throws based on drawing fouls) through screening and cutting actions. SU, unfortunately, often doesn't employ these tactics. This is not just a "this year" problem--the offense has ignored some of these tactics for several years.

Watch Virginia's Blocker/Mover offense, Wisconsin's Swing offense, Villanova's 4-Out 1-In offense, Michigan's Open Post offense, or Michigan St.'s Set-Play offense (as just five examples)--players routinely get high percentage shots, only some of which are jump shots. Many of their screens/cuts generate action toward the hoop (back screens, back cuts, flex screens) and are designed to occupy the help-side defenders.

In contrast, the majority of SU's off-ball screens are down screens, where the cutter is running away from the hoop. Though Fair has improved his use of these screens in terms of "bumping" off of them, he rarely curls the screens the way that he should when his defender chases him. Cooney doesn't read these screens well at all, though he does occasionally back cut if his defender overplays. 90% of the time he pops to the perimeter off the screen. As a defender, if I know that's what he will do, it makes life easier to for me while defending him.

The team rarely employs back screens. Furthermore, outside of the initial pass and cut-to-fill by our point guard to start some of the sets, it almost never uses meaningful basket cuts unless it is an offensive rebounding situation.

Down screens do get the players some good looks from the outside and from the mid-range game. However, the offense rarely-if-ever uses flare screens. Watch Open Post teams and many 4-Out 1-In teams play--most utilize the flare screen quite well to get open three-pointers for shooters.

SU's offense generally uses the ball screen as its only consistent method of attacking towards the basket. This offense tends to be this team's most effective, but it would be even more so if the players spaced themselves better within it. Even with that said, the ball screen offense should help the post players find their offense more regularly. For example, side ball screens should lead to consistent offensive rebounding opportunities for the weak-side post. That's really not the case for this team, though when it does, the kids often take advantage of it.

Where you're correct is that offensive design can only get a team so far. Players have to have the skills and confidence to make the plays that present themselves. This year's squad is lacking players who have refined mastery of fundamentals in key areas. The most glaring lack is their ability to shoot.

Also, the lack of depth is an issue. If Fair or Ennis are struggling, where can the team turn?

Still, given the limitations that your post points out, the task is to find ways to minimize the situations where the players' weaknesses are exposed and to maximize the percentages in their favor. Running down screens that turn into isolations for Fair, who is not a consistent one-on-one star player whose skill set effectively creates shots for himself and others, is not an offense that achieves a consistently successful solution. Likewise, repeatedly running Cooney off of down screens, forcing him to shoot on the move (a difficult shooting situation), isn't helping when the poor young man is struggling to hit shots with his feet set.

Creating diverse scoring opportunities through utilizing a variety of cuts and screens, some of which directly attack the paint, would seem to be a better choice with such limited shooting.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Team passing has been garbage all year.

 

[SUfanNC]

I really think our spacing is bad! I noticed this in the last game. We made more 3 ft passes than I can remember.

 

[007]

I appreciate your thoughts here. Though there is some truth in what you're saying, there are ways to get higher percentage shots (layups/dunks, less contested jumpers, free throws based on drawing fouls) through screening and cutting actions. SU, unfortunately, often doesn't employ these tactics. This is not just a "this year" problem--the offense has ignored some of these tactics for several years.

Watch Virginia's Blocker/Mover offense, Wisconsin's Swing offense, Villanova's 4-Out 1-In offense, Michigan's Open Post offense, or Michigan St.'s Set-Play offense (as just five examples)--players routinely get high percentage shots, only some of which are jump shots. Many of their screens/cuts generate action toward the hoop (back screens, back cuts, flex screens) and are designed to occupy the help-side defenders.

In contrast, the majority of SU's off-ball screens are down screens, where the cutter is running away from the hoop. Though Fair has improved his use of these screens in terms of "bumping" off of them, he rarely curls the screens the way that he should when his defender chases him. Cooney doesn't read these screens well at all, though he does occasionally back cut if his defender overplays. 90% of the time he pops to the perimeter off the screen. As a defender, if I know that's what he will do, it makes life easier to for me while defending him.

The team rarely employs back screens. Furthermore, outside of the initial pass and cut-to-fill by our point guard to start some of the sets, it almost never uses meaningful basket cuts unless it is an offensive rebounding situation.

Down screens do get the players some good looks from the outside and from the mid-range game. However, the offense rarely-if-ever uses flare screens. Watch Open Post teams and many 4-Out 1-In teams play--most utilize the flare screen quite well to get open three-pointers for shooters.

SU's offense generally uses the ball screen as its only consistent method of attacking towards the basket. This offense tends to be this team's most effective, but it would be even more so if the players spaced themselves better within it. Even with that said, the ball screen offense should help the post players find their offense more regularly. For example, side ball screens should lead to consistent offensive rebounding opportunities for the weak-side post. That's really not the case for this team, though when it does, the kids often take advantage of it.

Where you're correct is that offensive design can only get a team so far. Players have to have the skills and confidence to make the plays that present themselves. This year's squad is lacking players who have refined mastery of fundamentals in key areas. The most glaring lack is their ability to shoot.

Also, the lack of depth is an issue. If Fair or Ennis are struggling, where can the team turn?

Still, given the limitations that your post points out, the task is to find ways to minimize the situations where the players' weaknesses are exposed and to maximize the percentages in their favor. Running down screens that turn into isolations for Fair, who is not a consistent one-on-one star player whose skill set effectively creates shots for himself and others, is not an offense that achieves a consistently successful solution. Likewise, repeatedly running Cooney off of down screens, forcing him to shoot on the move (a difficult shooting situation), isn't helping when the poor young man is struggling to hit shots with his feet set.

Creating diverse scoring opportunities through utilizing a variety of cuts and screens, some of which directly attack the paint, would seem to be a better choice with such limited shooting.

Really, really good response, Coach. Agree with almost all of that, especially the underlying implication.

Mostly definitely not just a this year problem.

There is no arguing with JB's sustained success and HOF career. From a coach's perspective, I have always been absolutely amazed how his teams - year after year after year - always "seem" to be lacking in even basic fundamental skills and disciplined execution on both ends of the floor, and yet he continues to win and win and win.

This year's team has nowhere near enough offensive talent to not set every screen correctly, to not come off every screen hard and at the right angle, or to run 1:1 iso plays at the end of the shot clock with a player who can only go left.