We have plenty of weapons

[RF2044]

1. What it does illustrate is that outside of a couple of the best defenses in the sport last year the team was capable of moving the ball.

2. No . Pretty funny when I pointed out the efficiency problem after CMU, and it was consistent with the year prior, you told me I was hand wringing and that it was too early to make an assessment. Some of us don't need a seasons worth of data.

Amazing--you can make snap judgements after one game, and yet with these amazing powers of observation you watched an entire season and fail to recognize that our skilled offensive talent is subpar compared to comparable peer programs. All it takes is watching non-SU games [especially games from other conferences] to see the difference.

There's being hopeful, and there's rhetoric overstating how good our talent is. Claiming that last year's skilled offensive talent was adequate relative to other programs is the latter. Nobody disputes that the offensive performance could / should have been better than it was with the personnel on hand, but that doesn't mean that the skilled offensive talent is "good enough." Last year, it wasn't.

We're all hopeful that the situation will improve. Because if it doesn't, and the offense is woefully inadequate again, we're going to be replacing our coach for the fourth time in a decade.

 

[kcsu]

Sometimes words are just that, words. I saw every game and as much as the offense struggled, I don't remember once saying to myself that these players don't know the plays. It was always either a bad play call for the situation or more often lack of execution/talent.

I saw every game as well flew back for many of them and i believe that last year was a complete cluster on the O side. I saw confusion on groupings, play calling that was beyond horrible and a team that had zero O identity. Lack of execution is often a direct result of not knowing the plays or at a minimum thinking too much vs doing. They were lost and it showed

 

[GoSU96]

Amazing--you can make snap judgements after one game, and yet with these amazing powers of observation you watched an entire season and fail to recognize that our skilled offensive talent is subpar compared to comparable peer programs. All it takes is watching non-SU games [especially games from other conferences] to see the difference.

There's being hopeful, and there's rhetoric overstating how good our talent is. Claiming that last year's skilled offensive talent was adequate relative to other programs is the latter.

We're all hopeful that the situation will improve. Because if it doesn't, and the offense is woefully inadequate again, we're going to be replacing our coach for the fourth time in a decade.

Well I was right about the issues with the offense.

There are three guys from 2012 that were clearly better than guys currently on the roster, Pugh, Lemon, and Nassib. That's it. Those three guys do not explain the difference between being 17th in total offense and 113th.

In terms of overall depth of talent this roster is better. Team speed, size, athletic ability as a whole is better. There is enough talent on this team to have a functional, competent offense that will make this team very competitive with most opponents on the schedule.

Fact is that even after Wake they were still 70th, and that was two games after Hunt got hurt, top 50 before that.

 

[Millhouse]

Surely you don't believe this. The word out of camp for two years was the thickness of the playbook. Many here rallied for simplicity ala 2012.

mazzone knew there was no money in selling a 1 page N Zone book. so i'm sure it had a lot of stuff in it. but mcdonald only ran the bubble screen page

 

[Millhouse]

There are three guys from 2012 that were clearly better than guys currently on the roster, Pugh, Lemon, and Nassib. That's it..

that's it, eh? how many guys do you think play offense?

(and you left off sales)

 

[TheCusian]

mazzone knew there was no money in selling a 1 page N Zone book. so i'm sure it had a lot of stuff in it. but mcdonald only ran the bubble screen page

In one corner was have comments from a guy with copies of both play books and in the other we... have ... Millhouse.

 

[RF2044]

that's it, eh? how many guys do you think play offense?

(and you left off sales)

Sales AND Beckett Wales. In other words, just about all of the skilled offensive talent from 2012 was markedly better than what we had last year.

The point Go is attempting to make is that other than an NFL drafted QB, two 1000 yard WRs, a first round pick LT, and a TE who had the second most receptions in program history for the position in 2012, our offense last year had comparable offensive talent.

Nonsense. Those two teams couldn't be further apart in terms of skilled offensive talent. The roster might [emphasis on "might"] have improved talent / depth at SOME positional units from 2012, but we're not talking about OL or LB -- we're discussing skilled offensive positions.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

that's it, eh? how many guys do you think play offense?

(and you left off sales)

Sales proved himself to be a very very good college receiver. He wasn't the hardest worker, didn't lift the most weights or throw big tractor tires around with no shirt on and post it on instagram, nor did he run all that fast, but he got open, knew how how get open and he caught the football and as the meatheads say," made plays". Lemon and Sales were a good duo.

In addition, those 3 guys were a QB, WR and and NFL tackle. In addition, Smith was a very good battering ram type of RB. Again, not the most gifted athletically but a good running back. Also you had Macky who was a very very good college center. So out of those 6 guys on that offense that have now been named, I wouldn't replace any of them with what we have now. we need more guys like Sales and Macky who are good college football players, maybe not NFL guys but very good at this level. Won't overwhelm anyone but good players. Provo and Wales were good too and I will put, Reddish as well. Reddish was fantastic last year, wont make an NFL roster but had a great year

 

[Millhouse]

In one corner was have comments from a guy with copies of both play books and in the other we... have ... Millhouse.

i am sure mcdonald's playbook was giant. having a giant playbook and calling few plays is not mutually exclusive

 

[kcsu]

Sales proved himself to be a very very good college receiver. He wasn't the hardest worker, didn't lift the most weights or throw big tractor tires around with no shirt on and post it on instagram, nor did he run all that fast, but he got open, knew how how get open and he caught the football and as the meatheads say," made plays". Lemon and Sales were a good duo.

In addition, those 3 guys were a QB, WR and and NFL tackle. In addition, Smith was a very good battering ram type of RB. Again, not the most gifted athletically but a good running back. Also you had Macky who was a very very good college center. So out of those 6 guys on that offense that have now been named, I wouldn't replace any of them with what we have now. we need more guys like Sales and Macky who are good college football players, maybe not NFL guys but very good at this level. Won't overwhelm anyone but good players. Provo and Wales were good too and I will put, Reddish as well. Reddish was fantastic last year, wont make an NFL roster but had a great year

Good post and i agree with one exception. Injuries aside I believe that if Doug and Hack had our current talent they would have done much better with it than George. Coaching is a huge part of the college game and George was a really bad OC.

 

[RF2044]

Good post and i agree with one exception. Injuries aside I believe that if Doug and Hack had our current talent they would have done much better with it than George. Coaching is a huge part of the college game and George was a really bad OC.

That's true. But that is a completely separate topic than whether the talent last year was comparable to other successful programs, let alone "good enough" for us to get to a bowl.

We've dropped off--steeply--from three years ago. I hope that this year's skilled talent improves over last year's contributions, with players like Custis [who didn't provide any impact last year] stepping into more prominent roles, Hunt performing better, etc. but after last year I'm more skeptical and want to see the results on the field. We'll have to wait and see, and not put too much stock into a spring game that wasn't even a real game.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Good post and i agree with one exception. Injuries aside I believe that if Doug and Hack had our current talent they would have done much better with it than George. Coaching is a huge part of the college game and George was a really bad OC.

Can't disagree with you there

 

[Millhouse]

Sales proved himself to be a very very good college receiver. He wasn't the hardest worker, didn't lift the most weights or throw big tractor tires around with no shirt on and post it on instagram, nor did he run all that fast, but he got open, knew how how get open and he caught the football and as the meatheads say," made plays". Lemon and Sales were a good duo.

In addition, those 3 guys were a QB, WR and and NFL tackle. In addition, Smith was a very good battering ram type of RB. Again, not the most gifted athletically but a good running back. Also you had Macky who was a very very good college center. So out of those 6 guys on that offense that have now been named, I wouldn't replace any of them with what we have now. we need more guys like Sales and Macky who are good college football players, maybe not NFL guys but very good at this level. Won't overwhelm anyone but good players. Provo and Wales were good too and I will put, Reddish as well. Reddish was fantastic last year, wont make an NFL roster but had a great year

football guys don't like that QB means so much. so they talk about this and that and the other thing to make it more interesting

but nassib was 36th best at passing in 2012. pretty good. way better than i thought he'd be. the offense was better than 36th because they could also run behind pugh.

after nassib, the QBs stunk at throwing the ball. so the offense stunk at moving the ball.

marrone and hackett were much better in 2012 on offense than they were prior to that. simple, fast, lots of simple reads. mcdonald was a moron who called predetermined bubble screens hoping defenses would think we were running packaged plays (they didn't)

i'm perfectly happy to spread blame between mcdonald and hunt. but it's pretty silly for go to say that over a quarter of the players on offense can't have a giant effect on output

 

[007]

Good post and i agree with one exception. Injuries aside I believe that if Doug and Hack had our current talent they would have done much better with it than George. Coaching is a huge part of the college game and George was a really bad OC.

Saying that Doug and Hack would have done much better than George did with the same talent is kind of like saying water is wet. I am assuming that you believe that this means that GM was responsible for holding back or misusing all the weapons we have. IMO, GM was a convenient scapegoat for all that was wrong with the O last season. He was clearly part of the problem. But, there were many other reasons as well. One of which was the talent.

Whatever weapons we do have, the most that can be said at this point is that it is unproven talent. We also have little to no data on which to base the assumption that Lester and the new offense will be the answer to unlocking all those weapons you feel we have.

 

[KaiserUEO]

WE HAVE PLENTY OF WEAPONS!! WE CAN HANDLE THINGS!!! WE'RE SMART!!!!

 

[tipphill]

a good staf will play to its qb's strengths - not force him into doing what he cant-

we will see pretty early on if this season is boom or bust

very true but also a good staff would have recruited a decent quaterback

 

[Scooch]

First 8 games.

Non top six defenses: 320 vs Nova, 464 vs CMU, 589 vs UMd, 429 vs ND, 412 vs FSU, 370 vs Wake.

Vs #6 Lville 245, vs #1 Clemson 170.

McDonald was an idiot. The overall talent on the roster is better than it was 10, 5, and 3 years ago. It's not nearly as bad as they performed last year.

Are these guys good enough to just throw them out there, no, nobody is saying they are just going to out talent opponents, that's why you need great coaching in a program like this.

FWIW, averaging 400 yards per game got you the 68th ranked offense last season, which is closer to the bottom of the rankings than the top. I guess you can characterize that as "moving the ball", but it's moving worse than average.

And FWIW, part 2, 108 of our yards against FSU came when we were down 31-13 in the 4th quarter. 101 of our yards against ND came in the 4th quarter when we were down 28-9. So it's fair to say we racked up some yardage against D's that were in prevent mode.

I think better coaching would maximize our talent more. But we're still subpar, talent-wise.

 

[GoSU96]

that's it, eh? how many guys do you think play offense?

(and you left off sales)

I left off Sales on purpose.

 

[TheCusian]

i am sure mcdonald's playbook was giant. having a giant playbook and calling few plays is not mutually exclusive

Right. And if you assume our players had to know a lot of it - Hunt's comments make sense. Good point.

 

[rrlbees]

Sales proved himself to be a very very good college receiver. He wasn't the hardest worker, didn't lift the most weights or throw big tractor tires around with no shirt on and post it on instagram, nor did he run all that fast, but he got open, knew how how get open and he caught the football and as the meatheads say," made plays". Lemon and Sales were a good duo. In addition, those 3 guys were a QB, WR and and NFL tackle. In addition, Smith was a very good battering ram type of RB. Again, not the most gifted athletically but a good running back. Also you had Macky who was a very very good college center. So out of those 6 guys on that offense that have now been named, I wouldn't replace any of them with what we have now. we need more guys like Sales and Macky who are good college football players, maybe not NFL guys but very good at this level. Won't overwhelm anyone but good players. Provo and Wales were good too and I will put, Reddish as well. Reddish was fantastic last year, wont make an NFL roster but had a great year

QB Nassib > Hunt/committee
RB Smith > Gulley
RB Gulley > Moore/Morris
WR Lemon > West
WR Sales > Committee
TE Wales > Moore
LT Pugh > Hickey
RT Hickey > Foy
LG Chibane > Trudo
RG Trudo = Palmer
C Macky > Miller

2012 is FAR better than 2014, especially at the skill positions. The elephant in the room is that the prior staff did a poor job recruiting to backfill those guys.

 

[OrangeDW]

Ishmael is the only guy that's really been impressive. McFarlane has looked good at times, in limited chances. Hunt is a good runner.

Nobody else has done much of anything yet.

 

[Chip]

There are three guys from 2012 that were clearly better than guys currently on the roster, Pugh, Lemon, and Nassib.

In an alternative universe, there's a certain irony that each of those 3 were originally identified and sold on SU by the Greg Robinson staff.

All other things being equal, the QB, LT, WR would have a fairly significant impact on the success of the offense, wouldn't you think?

 

[Millhouse]

QB Nassib > Hunt/committee RB Smith > Gulley RB Gulley > Moore/Morris WR Lemon > West WR Sales > Committee TE Wales > Moore LT Pugh > Hickey RT Hickey > Foy LG Chibane > Trudo RG Trudo = Palmer C Macky > Miller 2012 is FAR better than 2014, especially at the skill positions. The elephant in the room is that the prior staff did a poor job recruiting to backfill those guys.

What room are you in? Most people get that and talk about it.

 

[Millhouse]

In an alternative universe, there's a certain irony that each of those 3 were originally identified and sold on SU by the Greg Robinson staff. All other things being equal, the QB, LT, WR would have a fairly significant impact on the success of the offense, wouldn't you think?

I know we have a LincolnCuse, maybe go should be MrsLincolnCuse. How was the play?

 

[rrlbees]

Yeah right.

Right.