We need to recruit PGs for 2016

[iommi]

I thought Battle chose Cuse because we offered him the chance t play PG, no?

Sort of. We told Battle the ball will be in his hands. Howard could initiate the offense and Battle could be the iso go-to guy.

 

[iommi]

We're in this predicament because JB doesn't recruit many of the available PG prospects - simply because they're not long enough. Another example of zone being prioritized above everything else.

One target who'd be long enough is Trevon Duval. Unfortunately, he's 2017 and he's prepping very far away in Texas. Kid is a stud PG difference-maker but it would have to be considered a long shot for SU at this juncture.

 

[asj410]

McCullough was a projected lotto pick before setting foot on campus and still was picked in the late 1st despite the ACL injury. Ennis had an incredible year and showed people what he can do. Unless Mali has a Ennis-type season going forward, he's not leaving. Ennis was a sure fire 1st round pick when he declared, short of Mali averaging like 18ppg and shooting over 50% from the field the rest of the way he wouldn't sniff the 1st round this year

I think another factor in Ennis bolting that a lot of people overlook is that he performed well on a team that was ranked #1 for a while. That's going to get you a lot of media attention, which only fuels the draft stock fire. IMO, had last year's team been a top-10 team, Christmas would have been a 1st round pick.

 

[orangefan13]

Sort of. We told Battle the ball will be in his hands. Howard could initiate the offense and Battle could be the iso go-to guy.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Howard as one of our top 3 options next year.

 

[Scotch]

I wouldn't be surprised to see Howard as one of our top 3 options next year.

I don't see Frank as a scoring option necessarily. Anything he gives us there would be gravy. It would be great if he could develop into a Laz Sims type - big lead guard that initiates the offense, gets into the lane and distributes. If he can be that for us, and Chukwu can protect the rim and rebound a little, we will be very good next year.

 

[retro44]

We also need to recruit a big man coach

 

[Jasoncuse]

This program needs to be recruiting actual PG's, not tall kids that they plan to transition to PG.

The offense has been mostly dreadful the past two seasons, and that's with star-caliber players in Rak and G. I'm not a fan of how we run things in the half-court, but the lack of a true, quality PG has only made things worse. Running the same pick and rolls with no real threat of a drive or dish just stagnates the offense more than it needs to be. There is nobody that can break down a defense, nobody to set the offense and nobody to facilitate. Joseph was supposed to be that guy, but that's not happening. I like Howard as a role player going forward, but he doesn't look like he'll be a difference making PG. G is a very good college player, but he's not a PG.

And going forward, what are we looking at? Another combo guard that will be shoehorned into playing PG in Battle. I hope he's up to the task, but I'd much rather have him playing alongside a kid that's played nothing but PG and can get him the ball.

Stop recruiting kids based on their fit for the zone and start recruiting kids that can actually play the PG position.

 

[RF2044]

This program needs to be recruiting actual PG's, not tall kids that they plan to transition to PG.

The offense has been mostly dreadful the past two seasons, and that's with star-caliber players in Rak and G. I'm not a fan of how we run things in the half-court, but the lack of a true, quality PG has only made things worse. Running the same pick and rolls with no real threat of a drive or dish just stagnates the offense more than it needs to be. There is nobody that can break down a defense, nobody to set the offense and nobody to facilitate. Joseph was supposed to be that guy, but that's not happening. I like Howard as a role player going forward, but he doesn't look like he'll be a difference making PG. G is a very good college player, but he's not a PG.

And going forward, what are we looking at? Another combo guard that will be shoehorned into playing PG in Battle. I hope he's up to the task, but I'd much rather have him playing alongside a kid that's played nothing but PG and can get him the ball.

Stop recruiting kids based on their fit for the zone and start recruiting kids that can actually play the PG position.

Great post.

PG is the one position where we need to make an exception to the size / length tailored for the zone philosophy. I don't know how many times I've expressed that same opinion on this forum -- college basketball is a guard driven game, and having exceptional lead guard play is a huge advantage. Just like the lack of it is a huge disadvantage.

Need to recruit the best PGs we can. Period.

 

[asj410]

This program needs to be recruiting actual PG's, not tall kids that they plan to transition to PG.

The offense has been mostly dreadful the past two seasons, and that's with star-caliber players in Rak and G. I'm not a fan of how we run things in the half-court, but the lack of a true, quality PG has only made things worse. Running the same pick and rolls with no real threat of a drive or dish just stagnates the offense more than it needs to be. There is nobody that can break down a defense, nobody to set the offense and nobody to facilitate. Joseph was supposed to be that guy, but that's not happening. I like Howard as a role player going forward, but he doesn't look like he'll be a difference making PG. G is a very good college player, but he's not a PG.

And going forward, what are we looking at? Another combo guard that will be shoehorned into playing PG in Battle. I hope he's up to the task, but I'd much rather have him playing alongside a kid that's played nothing but PG and can get him the ball.

Stop recruiting kids based on their fit for the zone and start recruiting kids that can actually play the PG position.

I agree with the points you made, especially on what seems like the overemphasis on recruiting for the zone. It's been irking me more and more over the years as our offense has gotten worse and worse. However, regarding Battle, wasn't it he and his family that have been insisting on Tyus playing PG in college rather than JB trying to force him into that position?

 

[Cusefan0307]

We've also recruited point guards and moved them to shooting guard (Brandon Triche). I didn't like that move either.

 

[Jasoncuse]

Great post.

PG is the one position where we need to make an exception to the size / length tailored for the zone philosophy. I don't know how many times I've expressed that same opinion on this forum -- college basketball is a guard driven game, and having exceptional lead guard play is a huge advantage. Just lack the lack of it is a huge disadvantage.

Need to recruit the best PGs we can. Period.

In this day and age, you need good/great guard play if you want to go anywhere. Very rarely do you see a team with mediocre or poor guards make much noise in March, especially at PG. It's the equivalent to the importance of having a good QB in the NFL.

I just don't understand why this program has become so reliant on length and zone fit in recruiting. We have 200 lb SF's trying to rebound against 240 lb kids and getting pushed around on the offensive end. We have 6'5" kids with questionable handles trying to man the most important position in the sport. And it's not like we're seeing great defense out of the zone either. Gimme a scrappy, quick rugrat of a PG that can distribute and makes things happen offensively and be a gnat on defense over a kid with potential because he's 6'6". Times have changed, and SU needs to adjust.

I also think it's time to dip our toes into the grad transfer pool. Or dive right in. I'm guessing we'll be seeing more than G and Cooney leaving after the season, so at the bare minimum, we need bodies. We also need talent and proven ability...

 

[orangefan13]

In this day and age, you need good/great guard play if you want to go anywhere. Very rarely do you see a team with mediocre or poor guards make much noise in March, especially at PG. It's the equivalent to the importance of having a good QB in the NFL.

But whats considered good pg play? Is it assists or scoring. Look at Uconns teams with Kemba and Boatwright/Jerami Lamb, Or ND last year with Grant, or Kentucky last year without a really good pg. Look at Novas team they play three guards. Thats plenty of point guards, where did that ever get them?? Kentucky has three great pg's right now, and they are no better then 12th right now. They are lucky they play in a midmajor conference.

I want to agree. But I think a pg who is ferocious attacking the lane and scoring midrange and in the paint is more key then outstanding ballhandling abilities. Give me just decent ball handling/passing abilities instead with a great scorer any day of the week. That is what we had in 03 and 09-10.

I agree turnovers are so key but the more scorers on offense you have the better. We are syraucse we play zone tall athletic. A zone that is tough extending,not extending, and rebounding with the most scorers your can stuff on the court is the perfect recipe any day of the week. Gbinije is a pretty darn good point, but we are lacking the 3rd and 4th consistant scorers to join him.

I feel the same way about transition. Its a wonderful thing it can make you or break you any given game. But what do you do when your up against a good team with good shooters, is physical, passes the ball well, with a decent point guard that only averages 10 turnovers a game? Transition is kind of worthless as opposed to a good halfcourt offense in those kind of games

. You can't force transition playing 2-3 zone, you can only hope the other team gives it to you. But you absolutely have to play half court offense every game. Its just a fact of college basketball. Give me good scorers who can create on their own any day of the week.


We just have been super poor off the dribble since Fair Ennis and Grant left. Roberson, Kaleb, Dajuan, Cooney, Patterson, BJ, Obokoh just haven't been solid enough off the dribble to get it done this year or last, and Malachi Lydon are fresh. Howard is still a quarter step slow for a freshmen. Alot of other freshmen pg's would be a halfstep slow by comparison.

Heres a neat stat we are probably somewhere near 8-50 from three off of offensive rebounds on the season, go back to exhibition games as well. That is the same look a good point guard would get someone in the halfcourt. Actually a better look then a pg would get them because the defense isn't set. Its kind of a transition look. Having a midrange guy or a forward to grab that offensive board and pound it back inside getting to the line or scoring, is so key. But it takes a) dribbling b)welcoming physical contact c) a good feel for the rim and d) position to get the shot over your opponent to finish those plays.
Dajuan lacks d, Roberson lacks c, Lydon lacks b, gbinije kind of lacks d and b at times but is slightly ahead of the other three. Cooney lacks a touch of speed or something, and I think malachi has all of the above growing in his game.

One key possession against miami roberson grabbed the offensive board at the end of the half about 40 seconds left. He went back up missed terribly and it resulted in a dunk the other way. That play really cut the lead down at the end of the half for miami. Its things like that, that really hurt this team.
Go Cuse!

 

[rrlbees]

We also need to recruit a big man coach

Was Bernie a big man coach? He never played himself and was short.

 

[FrancoPizza]

I just don't understand why this program has become so reliant on length and zone fit in recruiting. And it's not like we're seeing great defense out of the zone either.

The only thing I can rationalize is that JB over the years identified himself (and the program) with the zone... but at some point it morphed from being just a tool into a reflection of his legacy as a coach. for him to back away from this approach to building and recruiting strictly for the zone... in any capacity... would be admitting his legacy is a failure... or if you prefer more hyperbole - that his "invention" has been exposed as a fraud. this sort of fixation can happen when someone identifies too strongly with something - emotion overtakes rational judgment. we just have to wait until hop takes over before we can have any meaningful discussion on what might change.

Hang in there.

 

[Rossco123]

But whats considered good pg play? Is it assists or scoring. Look at Uconns teams with Kemba and Boatwright/Jerami Lamb, Or ND last year with Grant, or Kentucky last year without a really good pg. Look at Novas team they play three guards. Thats plenty of point guards, where did that ever get them?? Kentucky has three great pg's right now, and they are no better then 12th right now. They are lucky they play in a midmajor conference.

I want to agree. But I think a pg who is ferocious attacking the lane and scoring midrange and in the paint is more key then outstanding ballhandling abilities. Give me just decent ball handling/passing abilities instead with a great scorer any day of the week. That is what we had in 03 and 09-10.

I agree turnovers are so key but the more scorers on offense you have the better. We are syraucse we play zone tall athletic. A zone that is tough extending,not extending, and rebounding with the most scorers your can stuff on the court is the perfect recipe any day of the week. Gbinije is a pretty darn good point, but we are lacking the 3rd and 4th consistant scorers to join him.

I feel the same way about transition. Its a wonderful thing it can make you or break you any given game. But what do you do when your up against a good team with good shooters, is physical, passes the ball well, with a decent point guard that only averages 10 turnovers a game? Transition is kind of worthless as opposed to a good halfcourt offense in those kind of games

. You can't force transition playing 2-3 zone, you can only hope the other team gives it to you. But you absolutely have to play half court offense every game. Its just a fact of college basketball. Give me good scorers who can create on their own any day of the week.


We just have been super poor off the dribble since Fair Ennis and Grant left. Roberson, Kaleb, Dajuan, Cooney, Patterson, BJ, Obokoh just haven't been solid enough off the dribble to get it done this year or last, and Malachi Lydon are fresh. Howard is still a quarter step slow for a freshmen. Alot of other freshmen pg's would be a halfstep slow by comparison.

Heres a neat stat we are probably somewhere near 8-50 from three off of offensive rebounds on the season, go back to exhibition games as well. That is the same look a good point guard would get someone in the halfcourt. Actually a better look then a pg would get them because the defense isn't set. Its kind of a transition look. Having a midrange guy or a forward to grab that offensive board and pound it back inside getting to the line or scoring, is so key. But it takes a) dribbling b)welcoming physical contact c) a good feel for the rim and d) position to get the shot over your opponent to finish those plays.
Dajuan lacks d, Roberson lacks c, Lydon lacks b, gbinije kind of lacks d and b at times but is slightly ahead of the other three. Cooney lacks a touch of speed or something, and I think malachi has all of the above growing in his game.

One key possession against miami roberson grabbed the offensive board at the end of the half about 40 seconds left. He went back up missed terribly and it resulted in a dunk the other way. That play really cut the lead down at the end of the half for miami. Its things like that, that really hurt this team.
Go Cuse!

I'm sorry but this is an argument for something I hate. Recruiting a bunch of street ballers to play one on one (see MR). It's simply lazy coaching.

 

[Hoov50]

He's a "scoring" guard, imo. Not a traditional PG. I believe he wants to play PG to attempt to make himself more appealing to the NBA.

Like you, I think we need a true PG.

For whatever reason he reminds me of MCW, however MCW had the luxury of sitting while learning and improving his freshman year, that is a luxury Battle won't have. Other than Ennis have we ever had a true PG come in as a freshman and truly be ready to play? GMac was technically a PG, but he was more of a scorer IMHO.

 

[ebucklewis]

We've also recruited point guards and moved them to shooting guard (Brandon Triche). I didn't like that move either.

you may not have liked that move - but you can't argue with the results.

 

[Cusefan0307]

you may not have liked that move - but you can't argue with the results.

It was good for the team, I don't think it was good for the player. He was always more productive on the ball. I think it hurt his pro potential. He was better off the ball than MCW or Scoop ever would of been, but all three were point guards.

 

[Scotch]

It was good for the team, I don't think it was good for the player. He was always more productive on the ball. I think it hurt his pro potential. He was better off the ball than MCW or Scoop ever would of been, but all three were point guards.

Agree that it may have hurt Triche's pro potential, but I never saw him as a pure PG. Solid handle, but nothing crazy, and not an exceptional creator or distributor. Both MCW and Scoop had better vision and playmaking abilities. Triche was the definition of a combo guard. Had B+ offensive skills across the board. Great defender in the zone.

 

[MikeSU02]

For whatever reason he reminds me of MCW, however MCW had the luxury of sitting while learning and improving his freshman year, that is a luxury Battle won't have. Other than Ennis have we ever had a true PG come in as a freshman and truly be ready to play? GMac was technically a PG, but he was more of a scorer IMHO.

Autry? He played with Edwards in the back court, but he made Big East all rookie team, I believe. Jason Hart, perhaps?

 

[RF2044]

For whatever reason he reminds me of MCW, however MCW had the luxury of sitting while learning and improving his freshman year, that is a luxury Battle won't have. Other than Ennis have we ever had a true PG come in as a freshman and truly be ready to play? GMac was technically a PG, but he was more of a scorer IMHO.

Pearl, Autry, Gmac, Edelin, Flynn, Ennis.

 

[Kowbelkat]

But whats considered good pg play? Is it assists or scoring. Look at Uconns teams with Kemba and Boatwright/Jerami Lamb, Or ND last year with Grant, or Kentucky last year without a really good pg. Look at Novas team they play three guards. Thats plenty of point guards, where did that ever get them?? Kentucky has three great pg's right now, and they are no better then 12th right now. They are lucky they play in a midmajor conference.

I want to agree. But I think a pg who is ferocious attacking the lane and scoring midrange and in the paint is more key then outstanding ballhandling abilities. Give me just decent ball handling/passing abilities instead with a great scorer any day of the week. That is what we had in 03 and 09-10.

I agree turnovers are so key but the more scorers on offense you have the better. We are syraucse we play zone tall athletic. A zone that is tough extending,not extending, and rebounding with the most scorers your can stuff on the court is the perfect recipe any day of the week. Gbinije is a pretty darn good point, but we are lacking the 3rd and 4th consistant scorers to join him.

I feel the same way about transition. Its a wonderful thing it can make you or break you any given game. But what do you do when your up against a good team with good shooters, is physical, passes the ball well, with a decent point guard that only averages 10 turnovers a game? Transition is kind of worthless as opposed to a good halfcourt offense in those kind of games

. You can't force transition playing 2-3 zone, you can only hope the other team gives it to you. But you absolutely have to play half court offense every game. Its just a fact of college basketball. Give me good scorers who can create on their own any day of the week.


We just have been super poor off the dribble since Fair Ennis and Grant left. Roberson, Kaleb, Dajuan, Cooney, Patterson, BJ, Obokoh just haven't been solid enough off the dribble to get it done this year or last, and Malachi Lydon are fresh. Howard is still a quarter step slow for a freshmen. Alot of other freshmen pg's would be a halfstep slow by comparison.

Heres a neat stat we are probably somewhere near 8-50 from three off of offensive rebounds on the season, go back to exhibition games as well. That is the same look a good point guard would get someone in the halfcourt. Actually a better look then a pg would get them because the defense isn't set. Its kind of a transition look. Having a midrange guy or a forward to grab that offensive board and pound it back inside getting to the line or scoring, is so key. But it takes a) dribbling b)welcoming physical contact c) a good feel for the rim and d) position to get the shot over your opponent to finish those plays.
Dajuan lacks d, Roberson lacks c, Lydon lacks b, gbinije kind of lacks d and b at times but is slightly ahead of the other three. Cooney lacks a touch of speed or something, and I think malachi has all of the above growing in his game.

One key possession against miami roberson grabbed the offensive board at the end of the half about 40 seconds left. He went back up missed terribly and it resulted in a dunk the other way. That play really cut the lead down at the end of the half for miami. Its things like that, that really hurt this team.
Go Cuse!

Kemba won a national championship almost single handily

 

[MikeSU02]

Pearl, Autry, Gmac, Edelin, Flynn, Ennis.

I categorized Flynn as more of a scoring PG than a floor general. But definitely forgot Edelin. Half court offense, he was fantastic.

 

[Kowbelkat]

In this system we would have never recruited Sherm Douglas or Eddie Moss. Think on that a minute

 

[FrancoPizza]

Are there any 5th year transfer PGs that would be available? We really, really need a PG/facilitator/creator on offense to grease the skids next year. I'm done with the experiment of shooting guards and forwards trying to run the offense. It didn't work with Steven Thompson and it doesn't work with G. We shouldn't be a haven where 2nd-round picks get to cut their teeth at PG just so they can improve their perceived market value. Battle needs to be off the ball. Doesn't mean he won't have the ball in his hands or be asked to make plays.

But for this to work we really need Howard to step up and become a serviceable PG. It would also be nice to see our backcourt actually attempt to push the ball towards the hoop after a rebound at some point in the next decade. God I miss that element.