What's a Rivalry?

[Townie72]

Seems to me that before you can tell whether a "Rivalry" exists, you have to define what a "Rivalry" is and what it is not. You might try and answer the question, "You can tell its a real rivalry when ..."

Let me suggest some Rivalry Tests:

1. You can tell its a real rivalry when if you lose that game the season cannot be viewed as a success or not-much-of-a-success. For example if Auburn goes 10-2 and one of the losses is to Alabama their season has not been a real success in the eyes of the fans. Or if Florida State has a bad year (e.g. 4-8) but beats Florida, is the season considered a success?

2. You can tell its a real rivalry if you talk about that year's game with the opponent way before game week. Army v. Navy is the best example.

I think we were getting to the Rivalry stage with Virginia Tech.

SU v. Georgetown during the 1980's and early 1990's would be a good example of a true rivalry that SU fans might understand. Talking with Rutgers fans about rivalries is like talking to hogs about Easter Sunday. They have no understanding of the concept. They think Princeton was a rival and Princeton has no idea Rutgers exists. Princeton thinks Yale, Harvard and Penn are their rivals.

Games that are really just part of the schedule that don't pass either test aren't rivalries. They are just games with particularly annoying opposing fans.

You can then lay out what causes a "rivalry" to exist. How does one come about?

Seems to me you have to have a period in which there are a great deal of very meaningful games that decide championships of bowls or NCAA berths.

You have to have a lot of games that are "knock down, drag out' battles. Look at SU vs. GU during the 80's. Many of those games were wars.

You have to have some villains and heroes of these games. Like Michael Graham and Pearl.

Anybody that thinks that Rutgers is an SU rival has the rivary bar set way too low.

 

[Scooch]

College football rivalries tend to be a mixture of meaning and proximity. The great one's tend to involved teams that play meaningful games, and are near enough each other to involve some degree of regular fan interaction.

All the great in-state or border-state rivalries tend to follow this formula: Alabama-Auburn, Ohio State-Michigan, etc. There are exceptions, USC-ND for example, but those are rare.

There's also a difference between a "blood rival" and some degree less than that. The difference between circle the calendar rival, and oh-look-we-play-them-this-week rival. There's also rivalries that emerge due to on-field performance, such as SU-VaTech, but those are prone to fading the moment one or both of the programs aren't as successful and the meaningfulness of games decreases.

In our case, for football I suppose the last time we had a real rival was Colgate. Penn State may have been that, but I'm not sure PSU cared about our series nearly as much as we did. Unfortunately had circumstances been different, had there been a true eastern football league, SU-PSU would have certainly grown into a top-tier rivalry in the 90s.

If by some great twist of fate SU and any one of Pitt, BC and/or Maryland became perennial top 15-ish teams then we'd develop a good rivalry. There's enough proximity to make it work.

 

[Chip]

I've been separating a true rivalry game (meaning you only have that one) from a conference rivalry, which is a lot of fun, but not the circled game on the calendar.

I'll use the SEC for some examples. Even though everything in the SEC is multiplied by 100,000 given their passionate fan bases.

You ask an Alabama fan who is your rival. It's Auburn. That's a game they think about all year. You ask a Tennessee fan who their rival is, they'll tell you Florida. Yet Alabama and Tennessee were a logical crossover game, because they have a 3rd weekend in October rivalry. More of the conference rivalry type game.

The Georgia - Florida game is the same way. Great conference rivalry, but no one on either side will tell you it's THE game.

On a lesser scale, this is the extent that we should be soon developing with Maryland, will also apply to BC, Pitt. None of them will be what SU-Georgetown hoops was to our fanbase, but they each have a chance to develop into something special each year. If we step up our play and stand toe to toe with a Clemson, that could be SU-VT part 2, as Scooch has mentioned. That one is more on us though. We have to beat them a few times, make their fan base realize we're not an auto W.

It was never going to work with Rutgers for a few reasons. As I said yesterday, I think most of us view this point of their era as kind of fake, and exaggerated because look what they're comparing it to. I also think there aren't enough players to go around to keep SU/RU/UConn all playing at a high level. Hopefully the ACC move, and them being relegated to CUSA The Sequel, will mean that all more closely resemble the 90s.

 

[cuseguy]

I've been separating a true rivalry game (meaning you only have that one) from a conference rivalry, which is a lot of fun, but not the circled game on the calendar.

I'll use the SEC for some examples. Even though everything in the SEC is multiplied by 100,000 given their passionate fan bases.

You ask an Alabama fan who is your rival. It's Auburn. That's a game they think about all year. You ask a Tennessee fan who their rival is, they'll tell you Florida. Yet Alabama and Tennessee were a logical crossover game, because they have a 3rd weekend in October rivalry. More of the conference rivalry type game.

The Georgia - Florida game is the same way. Great conference rivalry, but no one on either side will tell you it's THE game.

On a lesser scale, this is the extent that we should be soon developing with Maryland, will also apply to BC, Pitt. None of them will be what SU-Georgetown hoops was to our fanbase, but they each have a chance to develop into something special each year. If we step up our play and stand toe to toe with a Clemson, that could be SU-VT part 2, as Scooch has mentioned. That one is more on us though. We have to beat them a few times, make their fan base realize we're not an auto W.

It was never going to work with Rutgers for a few reasons. As I said yesterday, I think most of us view this point of their era as kind of fake, and exaggerated because look what they're comparing it to. I also think there aren't enough players to go around to keep SU/RU/UConn all playing at a high level. Hopefully the ACC move, and them being relegated to CUSA The Sequel, will mean that all more closely resemble the 90s.

I hope you're right about the last part. That will bear watching.

 

[kingottoiii]

In our case, for football I suppose the last time we had a real rival was Colgate. Penn State may have been that, but I'm not sure PSU cared about our series nearly as much as we did. Unfortunately had circumstances been different, had there been a true eastern football league, SU-PSU would have certainly grown into a top-tier rivalry in the 90s.

I think PSU was our last rival but it died in the early 70s despite playing them every year until 1990. It peaked in the Schwartzwalder years 1949-73 when he faced Engle and JoePa. Before then I think it was like SU-Pitt as one team would go on long winning streaks. During Ben's time our record was 11-14 against PSU, losing the last three. We had the longest win streak during that stretch of four games. From 49-70 every game was within 20 points and the combined score was 361-359. IMO the 49-6 drubbing in 1973 marked the ending of the rivalry. After Ben retired we lost the next 13 games (bringing it to 16 total in a row) against PSU before winning in 1987. It certainly was a rivalry on both sides until PSU out grew us in the early 1970s.

 

[orangenauburn]

syracuse vs rutgers

probably would say Syracuse v WVU but they look to Pitt as their main rival

 

[kingottoiii]

I've been separating a true rivalry game (meaning you only have that one) from a conference rivalry, which is a lot of fun, but not the circled game on the calendar.

I think a rivalry can escalate, and seemingly come out of nowhere, because of HCs. That is what gave UConn (when HCRE was there) and RU (when Schiano was there) potential should we have been stuck in the BE. SU doesn't have a natural rival. But should HCRE stay at MD for quite some time, Schiano end up at an ACC school after he fails at TB, or some other hated HC emerge then I can see a rivalry taking off pretty quickly.

 

[Scooch]

I think a rivalry can escalate, and seemingly come out of nowhere, because of HCs. That is what gave UConn (when HCRE was there) and RU (when Schiano was there) potential should we have been stuck in the BE. SU doesn't have a natural rival. But should HCRE stay at MD for quite some time, Schiano end up at an ACC school after he fails at TB, or some other hated HC emerge then I can see a rivalry taking off pretty quickly.

I'm not sure that coaches make a big difference, unless they're legendary. I mean who the hell really cares about Randy Edsall?

I mean SU-Louisville had some juice because it's Boeheim and Pitino.

But Marrone-Edsall?

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

 

[kingottoiii]

I'm not sure that coaches make a big difference, unless they're legendary. I mean who the hell really cares about Randy Edsall?

I mean SU-Louisville had some juice because it's Boeheim and Pitino.

But Marrone-Edsall?

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

If coaches don't like each other it can make the teams and fanbases not like each other.

You didn't take extra pleasure in beating UConn because HCRE was a clown?

 

[Scooch]

If coaches don't like each other it can make the teams and fanbases not like each other.

You didn't take extra pleasure in beating UConn because HCRE was a clown?

Eh, this isn't the SEC, some coaches may not like each other but they're not publically sparring.

 

[JeffCuse]

Syracuse-BC was one IMO for the majority of the time they were in the BEC. Two teams on a similar level as far as football...we were better generally speaking but they had their moments, the games were competitive, overlapping recruiting grounds, and Rutgers was nothing at the time so the Northeast was really a 2 team race.

 

[wfschrec]

I've been separating a true rivalry game (meaning you only have that one) from a conference rivalry, which is a lot of fun, but not the circled game on the calendar.

I'll use the SEC for some examples. Even though everything in the SEC is multiplied by 100,000 given their passionate fan bases.

You ask an Alabama fan who is your rival. It's Auburn. That's a game they think about all year. You ask a Tennessee fan who their rival is, they'll tell you Florida. Yet Alabama and Tennessee were a logical crossover game, because they have a 3rd weekend in October rivalry. More of the conference rivalry type game.

The Georgia - Florida game is the same way. Great conference rivalry, but no one on either side will tell you it's THE game.

On a lesser scale, this is the extent that we should be soon developing with Maryland, will also apply to BC, Pitt. None of them will be what SU-Georgetown hoops was to our fanbase, but they each have a chance to develop into something special each year. If we step up our play and stand toe to toe with a Clemson, that could be SU-VT part 2, as Scooch has mentioned. That one is more on us though. We have to beat them a few times, make their fan base realize we're not an auto W.

It was never going to work with Rutgers for a few reasons. As I said yesterday, I think most of us view this point of their era as kind of fake, and exaggerated because look what they're comparing it to. I also think there aren't enough players to go around to keep SU/RU/UConn all playing at a high level. Hopefully the ACC move, and them being relegated to CUSA The Sequel, will mean that all more closely resemble the 90s.

Um Florida/Georgia is a huge ... huge ... huge game down here ... it is the game that is huge for Georgia and Florida fans ... hell an entire school district in Georgia actually closes school the Friday before "The World's Largest Cocktail Party". On 680 theFan down here if Georgia loses to Florida they have stated that the season is pretty much a failure even if Georgia finishes 10-2 ... that is how big that game is to them.

 

[ImperialOrange]

I will concur that UGA-Florida is very much a rivalry at least from the UGA side. I don;t know any UF fans to confirm with but I can tell you from the UGA side that they loathe UF above all other.

To me a rival is a team that A) you want to beat above others and B) gives you joy when you see them lose other games. In the Big East Georgetown and UConn fit the bill on the hoops side and nobody currently does on the football side for SU.

Although our conference affiliations have taken a breif hiatus I've never stopped actively rooting against Va Tech, Miami, and to a lessor extent BC. I will be happy when they are once again on the schedule in some form.

 

[Scooch]

If only Georgetown had a fan base to care when they lose.

What they have is about the size of an after-school club.

 

[Chip]

Um Florida/Georgia is a huge ... huge ... huge game down here ... it is the game that is huge for Georgia and Florida fans ... hell an entire school district in Georgia actually closes school the Friday before "The World's Largest Cocktail Party". On 680 theFan down here if Georgia loses to Florida they have stated that the season is pretty much a failure even if Georgia finishes 10-2 ... that is how big that game is to them.

Yeah, I don't live there so I shouldn't comment as much I guess. But I always saw that as such a big event because of the cocktail party itself, and it being tradition to just go to Jax and get wasted for the week (side note, I always wanted to go). Seems like if you ask a Florida fan, who do you want to beat more than anyone else, you could get a different answer. Could be FSU, could be Tennessee, could be Georgia I guess, could even be Spurrier and South Carolina. There was a time that it was FSU, but those schools aren't what they were in the Spurrier/Bowden heyday.

I always figured for Georgia, it would be worse to lose the GT game. I know they probably consider themselves above GT, but it has to be a failure to lose that annual regular season finale to the team an hour away.

 

[wfschrec]

Yeah, I don't live there so I shouldn't comment as much I guess. But I always saw that as such a big event because of the cocktail party itself, and it being tradition to just go to Jax and get wasted for the week (side note, I always wanted to go). Seems like if you ask a Florida fan, who do you want to beat more than anyone else, you could get a different answer. Could be FSU, could be Tennessee, could be Georgia I guess, could even be Spurrier and South Carolina. There was a time that it was FSU, but those schools aren't what they were in the Spurrier/Bowden heyday.

I always figured for Georgia, it would be worse to lose the GT game. I know they probably consider themselves above GT, but it has to be a failure to lose that annual regular season finale to the team an hour away.

Well I can say that your assumptions are natural and I normally would assume the same had I not lived here. GT is seemingly an afterthought on the radio down here ... in earnest they haven't been a power in over two decades when you consider the landscape of college football ... I mean 90 was big but ...

Losing the FL game is worse ... for Florida they do have FSU and Miami and Tennessee and ... man that is why I love living here so much ... the college football atmosphere is insane but Georgia/Florida is where it is at if you live in the Atlanta metro area. FL vs SC isn't as hot as I thought it would be ... but if you look at the Florida schools its still FSU vs Miami as the top rivalry which is now becoming a lopsided affair but in terms of animosity it is still numero uno ... I have yet to go to a GA/FL game but you best bet its on my bucket list ... hell the GA Dome turns into a circus whenever a college football game is played there ... usually those kickoff games are a great draw and the tailgaiting is awesome and I hope to make it to next year's Bama/VT game ... I really love watching Bama .. the Nicktator ... (that is what he is called by the talking heads here in the ATL) really has those guys going with a full head of steam. Back when I grew up deep in the middle of CNY (Morrisville area) I could only get 3 channels on TV and on CBS every Saturday I could still watch the SEC on CBS ... I became very familiar with Bama (especially that deep 92 team) and LSU and GA and teams like that. Ahh the memories!

 

[wfschrec]

I will concur that UGA-Florida is very much a rivalry at least from the UGA side. I don;t know any UF fans to confirm with but I can tell you from the UGA side that they loathe UF above all other.

To me a rival is a team that A) you want to beat above others and B) gives you joy when you see them lose other games. In the Big East Georgetown and UConn fit the bill on the hoops side and nobody currently does on the football side for SU.

Although our conference affiliations have taken a breif hiatus I've never stopped actively rooting against Va Tech, Miami, and to a lessor extent BC. I will be happy when they are once again on the schedule in some form.

Believe me I know some FL guys that you swear would slit their wrists if FL loses to GA ... its crazy ... of course I know some Tenn guys who now say ... "We are known as a basketball school" ... LOL ... my reply is always ... "How did that Tobias Harris thing work out for ya?" ... LOL