What's an ideal Syracuse University shooting guard?

[Eric15]

I said it before and I'll say it again: This team really needed a guy like Dion.

Couldn't every team say that they "need" a guy who was a top 5 pick in the NBA draft? I mean sure, that'd be wonderful.

 

[Full_Rebar]

It really depends on the rest of the team (and yes I know it's a bit of a cop-out). Soph. Dion worked because SU lacked a true go-to scorer- no offense to Kris Jo, and would have worked on this team as CJ and Ennis would have probably deferred to him willingly. Soph. Dion would have ruined the Rautins/Wes team with his style of play. Can't you just see him ignoring Andy coming open off a screen or AO posting up?

If you are talking zone defense, then Sr. year Rautins or Duany is probably your pick. Size at the top of the zone, threat from 3, but smart enough to look for others as well. Can contribute in many ways even if shot isn't falling...could Gbinije grow into a Duany-type with a better ability to drive?

 

[NineOneSeven]

1. Shoot
2. Score
3. Take pressure off PG by being able to handle the ball

 

[sufandu]

What's an ideal shooting guard, or what's a realistic expectation for a syracuse shooting guard? The ideal would be about 6' 6" with great outside shooting, unstoppable going to the basket, and a top level defender. Wait, I think I just described Kobe Bryant at this peak. I think a Dion Waiters type player is a realistic expectation for a great shooting guard, but how many different types of guards have we had over the years? We've had slow unathletic guys that weren't great shooters but could score (Moten). We've had uber athletic guys that couldn't shoot but could dunk with anyone (Stevie Thompson). We've had unathletic guys that could shoot (Matt Roe, Greg Monroe, Jason Cipolla). We've had athletic guys that were decent but not great shooters and were good going to the basket (Waiters, Devendorf). I don't think there is a prototype guard for SU the same way that we've seemed to establish a prototype forward.

 

[SWC75]

From my post "Four Year Basketball":

I’m not going to include Fab Melo in this group because, given his academic problems, I don’t think his coming back was an option, even if he hadn’t gone to the NBA.


DION WAITERS
Here are Dion’s numbers in his last year here, when we went 34-3:
2011-12 24.1m 21.0p 3.8r 4.1a 3.0s 0.5b 32.4+ 8.4mfg 1.4mft 2.2to 3.1pf 15.1- = 17.3NP 11.2OE 6.1FG

Here are the numbers for his replacement, Trevor Cooney:
2012-13: 11.2m 12.2p 2.9r 2.1a 2.6s 0.3b 20.1+ 9.1mfg 0.4mft 1.7to 3.0pf 14.2- = 5.9NP 2.7OE 3.2FG
2013-14: 32.6m 15.3p 2.6r 1.5a 2.4s 0.1b 21.9+ 7.2mfg 0.3mft 0.9to 1.3pf 9.7- = 12.2NP 7.8OE 4.4FG

Our last two teams have been offensive challenged and Dion Waiters is exactly what we needed to solve that problem.


MICHAEL CARTER-WILLIAMS
Let’s compare MCW last year to Tyler Ennis this year:
MCW: 35.2m 13.5p 5.5r 8.3a 3.2s 0.5b 31.0+ 6.8mfg 1.6mft 3.9to 2.6pf 14.9- = 16.1NP 5.1OE 11.0FG
Ennis: 35.5m 14.0p 3.8r 6.2a 2.3s 0.2b 26.5+ 6.6mfg 1.3mft 2.0to 2.3pf 12.2- = 14.3NP 6.1OE 8.2FG
Tyler is actually scoring slightly more but MCW was a better rebounder, passer and ball-hawk. He did have more turnovers- a lot more. But on balance, he was the better player. And he would have been better this year than last, with Tyler Ennis to back him up, (which I think was JB’s plan).

Imagine if we had a backcourt of MCW as a junior and Dion Waiters as a senior. Here are their NBA numbers this year, (per 40 minutes, rather than 48):
MCW: 34.4m 19.5p 6.5r 7.3a 2.3s 0.8b 36.4+ 10.7mfg 1.9mft 4.4to 3.5pf 20.5- = 15.9NP 6.9OE 9.0FG
Waiters: 27.7m 20.8p 4.1r 3.7a 1.3s 0.3b 30.2+ 10.8mfg 1.4mft 3.2to 3.1pf 18.5- = 11.7NP 8.6OE 3.1FG

There’s a lot of missed shots there and more turnovers than we’ve been having but these are 1st and 2nd year players in the NBA. Will Tyler Ennis and Trevor Cooney even be NBA players? Surely if MCW and Neon Dion were our starting backcourt, we’d have no trouble scoring.

 

[Millhouse]

It really depends on the rest of the team (and yes I know it's a bit of a cop-out). Soph. Dion worked because SU lacked a true go-to scorer- no offense to Kris Jo, and would have worked on this team as CJ and Ennis would have probably deferred to him willingly. Soph. Dion would have ruined the Rautins/Wes team with his style of play. Can't you just see him ignoring Andy coming open off a screen or AO posting up?

If you are talking zone defense, then Sr. year Rautins or Duany is probably your pick. Size at the top of the zone, threat from 3, but smart enough to look for others as well. Can contribute in many ways even if shot isn't falling...could Gbinije grow into a Duany-type with a better ability to drive?

i'll take waiters over rautins every single time, i don't care

 

[Cusefan0307]

i'll take waiters over rautins every single time, i don't care

I know this is going to be unpopular with a lot of people, but even Dion was prone to having bad games at inopportune times like against ohio state. You can have all the talent in the world, but if you don't produce in the tournament you are still going home. Andrew Wiggins is supposed to be the number one pick in the draft, and he's the main reason Kansas is sitting home. Everyone wants to focus on one position, but one position doesn't make you win. We were good in other years when we had our production spread out amongst our players. Dion only averaged 11 points a game in 2011-2012. We had about 6 or 7 guys average over 7 points that year. That team was good because our production was spread out and we could rely on other guys if one guy had a bad game. This team we needed all our starters to play well every game, and if they didn't we had nobody else to go to. It's important to have a diversified offensive team in basketball like we did in 09-10.

 

[CuseFanInFl]

Can hit consistently from outside the arc while also hitting anywhere inside the arc.

 

[Millhouse]

I know this is going to be unpopular with a lot of people, but even Dion was prone to having bad games at inopportune times like against ohio state. You can have all the talent in the world, but if you don't produce in the tournament you are still going home. Andrew Wiggins is supposed to be the number one pick in the draft, and he's the main reason Kansas is sitting home. Everyone wants to focus on one position, but one position doesn't make you win. We were good in other years when we had our production spread out amongst our players. Dion only averaged 11 points a game in 2011-2012. We had about 6 or 7 guys average over 7 points that year. That team was good because our production was spread out and we could rely on other guys if one guy had a bad game. This team we needed all our starters to play well every game, and if they didn't we had nobody else to go to. It's important to have a diversified offensive team in basketball like we did in 09-10.

i think waiters is a lot better. no people have bad games and no one position doesn't make you win

 

[Trueblue25]

Brandon Triche was also pretty wonderful

 

[jec1521]

I'd take any shooting guard that can hit an open jump shot at this point.

 

[Cusefan0307]

i think waiters is a lot better. no people have bad games and no one position doesn't make you win

Lol thanks for the daily comedy.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Everybody's arguing over Coondawg, G and Buss.

So lets hear what everyone expects out of a proper shooting guard for this team.

Somebody like Andy Rautins or Dion Waiters. Guys who can generate their own offense. Guys who can defend at the top of the zone and have a knack for steals. Guys who can deliver a good pass, even though they are not the point guard. Guys who can hit from 3.

You might say "Rautins couldn't get his own shot", but even though he was not a driver first, he ran off picks relentlessly and always seemed to get open, and Andy got out and ran on the break well enough to create chances at the rim and get himself to the line.

Cooney can still improve. That was only his first real season. He needs more swagger, but he could turn into a very good player for us. He's not that far away. Buss might be the next best guard we currently have on the roster. Gbinije has coach's trust more than Patterson, but Patterson has more of a shooter's mentality.

I think we may use Ennis and Kaleb Joseph together at times next year (assuming Ennis returns, which I think he will at this point ...). Joseph is a promising talent. I'm really looking forward to watching him. I think if we can get Tyus Battle in the 2015 class, he will be our next great 2 guard.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Brandon Triche was also pretty wonderful

Brandon was a great glue guy, but lacking an alpha dog scorer in the lineup, he kind of hurt us with his lack of offense as a senior.

 

[Beast]

All things considered (defense, ability to drive, perimeter threat, creating for teammates), I think Brandon Triche was the closest to "ideal" that we've seen since Lawrence Moten.

 

[Millhouse]

All things considered (defense, ability to drive, perimeter threat, creating for teammates), I think Brandon Triche was the closest to "ideal" that we've seen since Lawrence Moten.

better than devendorf?

i think devendorf gets forgotten about a little because he was so annoying and because he was on some pretty weak teams. gets dragged down by getting stuck with harris, greene, watkins, roberts, nichols.

 

[Beast]

better than devendorf?

i think devendorf gets forgotten about a little because he was so annoying and because he was on some pretty weak teams. gets dragged down by getting stuck with harris, greene, watkins, roberts, nichols.

You're right, Devo was an excellent player, but his baggage puts him lower than Triche on my scale. It would have been interesting to see what Devo could have done with a couple better players and stronger on-court leadership.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Loved Devo, had some good times with him when on I was on the hill and he was super talented, quite immune to defense tho IMO. He had everything else though. Triche was really a point playing the two.

 

[SBU72]

From my post "Four Year Basketball":

I’m not going to include Fab Melo in this group because, given his academic problems, I don’t think his coming back was an option, even if he hadn’t gone to the NBA.


DION WAITERS
Here are Dion’s numbers in his last year here, when we went 34-3:
2011-12 24.1m 21.0p 3.8r 4.1a 3.0s 0.5b 32.4+ 8.4mfg 1.4mft 2.2to 3.1pf 15.1- = 17.3NP 11.2OE 6.1FG

Here are the numbers for his replacement, Trevor Cooney:
2012-13: 11.2m 12.2p 2.9r 2.1a 2.6s 0.3b 20.1+ 9.1mfg 0.4mft 1.7to 3.0pf 14.2- = 5.9NP 2.7OE 3.2FG
2013-14: 32.6m 15.3p 2.6r 1.5a 2.4s 0.1b 21.9+ 7.2mfg 0.3mft 0.9to 1.3pf 9.7- = 12.2NP 7.8OE 4.4FG

Our last two teams have been offensive challenged and Dion Waiters is exactly what we needed to solve that problem.


MICHAEL CARTER-WILLIAMS
Let’s compare MCW last year to Tyler Ennis this year:
MCW: 35.2m 13.5p 5.5r 8.3a 3.2s 0.5b 31.0+ 6.8mfg 1.6mft 3.9to 2.6pf 14.9- = 16.1NP 5.1OE 11.0FG
Ennis: 35.5m 14.0p 3.8r 6.2a 2.3s 0.2b 26.5+ 6.6mfg 1.3mft 2.0to 2.3pf 12.2- = 14.3NP 6.1OE 8.2FG
Tyler is actually scoring slightly more but MCW was a better rebounder, passer and ball-hawk. He did have more turnovers- a lot more. But on balance, he was the better player. And he would have been better this year than last, with Tyler Ennis to back him up, (which I think was JB’s plan).

Imagine if we had a backcourt of MCW as a junior and Dion Waiters as a senior. Here are their NBA numbers this year, (per 40 minutes, rather than 48):
MCW: 34.4m 19.5p 6.5r 7.3a 2.3s 0.8b 36.4+ 10.7mfg 1.9mft 4.4to 3.5pf 20.5- = 15.9NP 6.9OE 9.0FG
Waiters: 27.7m 20.8p 4.1r 3.7a 1.3s 0.3b 30.2+ 10.8mfg 1.4mft 3.2to 3.1pf 18.5- = 11.7NP 8.6OE 3.1FG

There’s a lot of missed shots there and more turnovers than we’ve been having but these are 1st and 2nd year players in the NBA. Will Tyler Ennis and Trevor Cooney even be NBA players? Surely if MCW and Neon Dion were our starting backcourt, we’d have no trouble scoring.

Your post made me remember one of my responses to people saying the JB was responsible for not recruiting more shooters. Did these people consider that without players leaving early, the backcourt would have had Waiters, Williams, Ennis, Gbinijni, and Cooney? Yeah JB had time to account for Waiters leaving but to do it 2 years in a row accounting for MCW is really hard. You just don't pick up a phone and ask some kid who shoots 50% for the 3 if he would like to come to SU and be a backup.