Why is physical play rewarded?

[SBU72]

This probably been discussed before but why is physical play accepted if not rewarded? And I mean on defense. You all know what I mean. Teams who body up on defense all the time get a way with it. Guys ride a ball handler all the way down court get free rain, but let SU who plays a perceived finesse defense (zone) body up on a guy and the whistle gets blown. Defense in the paint gets reduced to shoving matches. Arm bars are suppose to be disallowed but still happen. Any pushing below the waist seems to be ok. There have been several articles of late about the absence of offense in the NCAA but I think if they begin to stop the physical defenses then the flow of the game will get better and scoring will go up.

 

[jordoo]

Because for some reason the NCAA and its refs have the game of basketball mixed up with football. Basketball is supposed to be a game of skill, position, precision and FREEFLOWING! I think it actually coincided with the Jordan era of NBA ball where they played super physical defense especially out top on the perimeter guys. The NBA cleaned this up and now has a much more aesthetically pleasing game. The NCAA needs to do the same thing but unfortunately the refs are pretty much a goodold boys network predicated on seniority without proper supervision, punishment and evaluations. IMO its to the point where they need to blow up the whole thing with the refs and start over. Grade them and the better graded they are the more they make, plus they get the better conferences and the NCAA's.

 

[scottynguyen]

Because in the backwards world of college basketball your style dictates how the refs call your game.

The game needs to be called way tighter, even if it results in free throw parades in the short-term. Long-term I think it would be beneficial.

 

[jordoo]

Because in the backwards world of college basketball your style dictates how the refs call your game.

The game needs to be called way tighter, even if it results in free throw parades in the short-term. Long-term I think it would be beneficial.

Agreed and like in the NBA its supposed to be difficult to stop the most athletically talented offensively skilled players from putting the ball in the hoop as opposed to it being difficult for them to.

 

[Oakland]

Blame the late 80's Detroit Pistons - and, of course, everyone who allowed them to keep playing thugball.

This probably been discussed before but why is physical play accepted if not rewarded? And I mean on defense. You all know what I mean. Teams who body up on defense all the time get a way with it. Guys ride a ball handler all the way down court get free rain, but let SU who plays a perceived finesse defense (zone) body up on a guy and the whistle gets blown. Defense in the paint gets reduced to shoving matches. Arm bars are suppose to be disallowed but still happen. Any pushing below the waist seems to be ok. There have been several articles of late about the absence of offense in the NCAA but I think if they begin to stop the physical defenses then the flow of the game will get better and scoring will go up.

 

[RF2044]

The NBA got smart and realized that overly physical play bogged scoring down and detracted from the overall product. So they implemented rule changes to emphasize clean offensive play and increase scoring. But perhaps more importantly, they enforced changes to how games were officiated and how referees call games.

That's the differentiator between the NBA and NCAA. Sure, the NCAA changed rules and put out points of emphasis to clean up the scrums, but the officials call games however they want. There was a groundswell of support for the points of emphasis in the national sports media, but it seems like ages ago [and it was only last year that the changes were ostensibly implemented] since virtually no progress was made, and very little tangibly changed. At the beginning, NCAA officials seemed to follow the changes, but those changes reverted quickly to same old, same old.

 

[CusefanATL]

I'm not sure if this is about Syracuse specifically or not, but if you have a center that is in the talks as being the "best center in the country" teams are going to be physical with you. There is always one guy that specifically face guards Cooney no matter what else is going on. Christmas will be double teamed. And to be quite honest i think Christmas needs to toughen up and stop complaining to the refs and play the game.

I def agree about Christmas and the complaining. He complains anytime he is touched.

It comes back to haunt him more than anyone else too - we NEED him in the game. I'd much rather a few fouls on him not be called as long as those same fouls aren't going to be called when he is the defender. He needs to stop bringing attention to it.

 

[RF2044]

. He needs to stop bringing attention to it.

That's an interesting point that I haven't seen brought up before.

 

[Oakland]

A couple of those non-calls Rak complained about occurred when he banged into the defender - could have been called offensive fouls.

I'm not sure if this is about Syracuse specifically or not, but if you have a center that is in the talks as being the "best center in the country" teams are going to be physical with you. There is always one guy that specifically face guards Cooney no matter what else is going on. Christmas will be double teamed. And to be quite honest i think Christmas needs to toughen up and stop complaining to the refs and play the game.

 

[jordoo]

A couple of those non-calls Rak complained about occurred when he banged into the defender - could have been called offensive fouls.

IMO not offensive fouls at all but you cannot expect to get a whistle when you are initiating contact. To me Rak is frustrated from how physical players are being with him on the post up. They have to though because he finishes consistently even through contact and they would almost rather use the fouls denying him the ball than sending him to the line. Either way Rak is frustrated by this and it carries over to him complaining after the shot over minimal contact that sometimes he creates more than the offensive player. I agree in general that he needs to just shut up about it and play. Let JB point it out to the refs and in the post game if need be. He gets more calls while holding position waiting for the pass than while shooting and IMO he is fouled much more in the position battle than while shooting. I do feel he gets little respect from the refs especially on the defensive end where it often appears they are looking to call fouls on him and he should get even more whistles while posting because the defender has two hands or one hand and a forearm on him almost every time.

 

[Brooky03]

I'm okay with the contact, with two exceptions: 1) When the offensive player drives into a defender (stationary or not), the defender has his arms straight up but collapses them after being hit full force in the chest, that is not a defensive foul! Call it a charge or don't call anything. 2) Hand checking around the perimeter or during full court pressure. This is literally how Louisville wins games and it's infuriating.

I generally prefer more loosely officiated games, but I'll admit there is a lot of work to be done as far as consistency is concerned. Although, I do not want the college game to resemble the pro game at all, in terms of officiating. The fact that James Harden can make a career for himself by shooting 20 free throws per game is flat out ridiculous.

 

[upperdeck]

actually its the captains job to talk with the refs and thats what he does.

 

[jordoo]

actually its the captains job to talk with the refs and thats what he does.

It looks more like what my 7 year old does when she doesn't get her way, pouting and whining not so much talking or discussing.

 

[Brooky03]

I agree pretty much all of that. Its JBs job to talk with the refs.. Its Christmas' job to play the game... All the complaining is doing nothing but hurting him whether his complaining is justified or not.

I don't know that the complaining is hurting him. It doesn't seem to impact his focus on offense or defense, so I don't think his play is hindered. As long as he doesn't take it to the point of getting a T, it doesn't really bother me. It's small, quick complaints most of the time and he usually has a point.

 

[jordoo]

I don't know that the complaining is hurting him. It doesn't seem to impact his focus on offense or defense, so I don't think his play is hindered. As long as he doesn't take it to the point of getting a T, it doesn't really bother me. It's small, quick complaints most of the time and he usually has a point.

It doesn't usually effect his play but I think it can effect the refs reaction to him specifically when they call defensive fouls on him. Basically they can say hey you want it called against you I have to call it when you do it.

 

[OttoMets]

Many of these college officials don't like when players show them up. Calls have gone against Christmas for four years, but upping his whining to a Michael Carter-Williams level in the last month hasn't helped his cause.

Officials remember this kind of thing.

 

[jordoo]

Many of these college officials don't like when players show them up. Calls have gone against Christmas for four years, but upping his whining to a Michael Carter-Williams level in the last month hasn't helped his cause.

Officials remember this kind of thing.

Yes because they are unprofessional hacks when it comes to their profession since the NCAA fails to truly regulate or punish them. He does need to just play however because its certainly not helping him get any calls.

 

[Flacusian]

Raks wincing and whining are not helping his cause---given. But he is certainly justified in his being upset about the continual veritable assault he endures during each game with few of what are certainly fouls committed while defending him being called by the refs.

Him not handling it correctly and becoming agitated and then fouling doesn't lessen the fact he's getting butchered down low by the opposing defenders and it's not being called.

As far as the OP. I couldn't agree more. It is a big portion of why the game has become nearly unwatchable over the past 10 years. I remember back when Big East games would be in the 80's and 90's with respect to scoring. Defensive coma inducing games characterized by scoring ineptitude are not at all pleasant to watch IMO.

 

[shermstheman]

Physical play-ge.t used to it. This is The Big East after all. Oh, wait.

 

[realorange]

Physical play or not, I think most of us would just like a game called evenly on both ends regardless of the level of physicality.

 

[OttoMets]

Raks wincing and whining are not helping his cause---given. But he is certainly justified in his being upset about the continual veritable assault he endures during each game with few of what are certainly fouls committed while defending him being called by the refs.

Him not handling it correctly and becoming agitated and then fouling doesn't lessen the fact he's getting butchered down low by the opposing defenders and it's not being called.

As far as the OP. I couldn't agree more. It is a big portion of why the game has become nearly unwatchable over the past 10 years. I remember back when Big East games would be in the 80's and 90's with respect to scoring. Defensive coma inducing games characterized by scoring ineptitude are not at all pleasant to watch IMO.

You summed up my thoughts better than I did.

 

[SBU72]

I heard an interesting comment the other day mostly about the Seahawks defense but was also included B-ball. Defenders are told to play physical (defensive backfields) because refs can't call a foul on every play. I think they even mention Pitino agreeing with that philosophy.

 

[Hoov50]

Most of what you all have posted is the reason I literally only watch SU games. Around 9-10 years ago I would watch any game that was on television. Now I can barely stand to watch the games of the team I love. The constant contact, not only on ball handlers, but the cutters is ridiculous. Watch Cooney move without the ball for a few possessions. I guarantee you, you will see him bumped, shoved or having his jersey literally grabbed at least 3-4 times each possession. Watch teams set "screens" on the top defenders of our zone. They are constantly moving to stay in front of the defender which should be an obvious offensive foul. The way the games are being called is ruining the game of college basketball and it all started with Pitt and quickly spread to Louisville and the others in the early '00's! Somewhere along the line great defense became getting as close to the player as possible and bodying him up.

 

[RF2044]

Most of what you all have posted is the reason I literally only watch SU games. Around 9-10 years ago I would watch any game that was on television. Now I can barely stand to watch the games of the team I love. The constant contact, not only on ball handlers, but the cutters is ridiculous. Watch Cooney move without the ball for a few possessions. I guarantee you, you will see him bumped, shoved or having his jersey literally grabbed at least 3-4 times each possession. Watch teams set "screens" on the top defenders of our zone. They are constantly moving to stay in front of the defender which should be an obvious offensive foul. The way the games are being called is ruining the game of college basketball and it all started with Pitt and quickly spread to Louisville and the others in the early '00's! Somewhere along the line great defense became getting as close to the player as possible and bodying him up.

Agree 100% on the highlighted point above. Drives me bonkers--that obvious moving screen that is rarely called is a huge pet peeve of mine.

That, and coaches being 10 feet outside of the coaches box or out on the floor while the game is going on. Should be an automatic "T" and instead the refs let them do it.

 

[jordoo]

Most of what you all have posted is the reason I literally only watch SU games. Around 9-10 years ago I would watch any game that was on television. Now I can barely stand to watch the games of the team I love. The constant contact, not only on ball handlers, but the cutters is ridiculous. Watch Cooney move without the ball for a few possessions. I guarantee you, you will see him bumped, shoved or having his jersey literally grabbed at least 3-4 times each possession. Watch teams set "screens" on the top defenders of our zone. They are constantly moving to stay in front of the defender which should be an obvious offensive foul. The way the games are being called is ruining the game of college basketball and it all started with Pitt and quickly spread to Louisville and the others in the early '00's! Somewhere along the line great defense became getting as close to the player as possible and bodying him up.

The Ben Howlend legacy. I think his system more than anything else drove Bill Walton crazy. You know he looked at it as a bastardization of the game he loved and it was happening at his beloved UCLA.