Why Wagner Will Win | Syracusefan.com

Why Wagner Will Win

SWC75

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- When they pick up the paycheck and take it to the bank.

I find it disgusting that some small-time schools basically sell their players out by getting themselves a spot in FCS so they can get ‘guarantee games’ from schools that legitimately belong in Division 1. Wagner is not App State. My brother went to Hamilton College back in the 60’s and we used to visit him on a football weekend in the fall. Wagner was the toughest game on Hamilton’s schedule. They had three unbeaten teams in the 1960’s and were always tough to beat at that level:
In 1987, they reached the pinnacle of their gridiron achievements when they won the NCAA Division II championship. But their kids will never have another shot at a championship because the school moved up to FCS in 1993. This enables them to use their football players like boxing’s ‘tomatoes cans’ – opponents who are brought in to give the big time schools an extra home game and a sure but meaningless win where they can play everybody in exchange for a big check. The small-time school will say that that enables them to fund the rest of their athletic program but how did they do that before they sold out their football players by rising to a division they could never win? And that’s the purpose of divisions- to give everyone the possibility of winning a championship if they can keep winning games. The Wagner players cannot do that. They are just taking their lumps so the school can make money. What kind of an educational experience is that?

The Seahawks are likely the worst team Syracuse will have played in the entire post World War II Era. Before the war, Syracuse, like a lot of big-time schools, would start the season by playing 2-3 small college teams, then play the “big-time portion of their schedule”. Their real record would be how they fared against the latter:
Look at 1929, for example. We beat Hobart 77-0, St. Lawrence 55-0 and John’s Hopkins 85-6. Against everybody else, we were 3-3 and outscored the big-time opposition 42-40. In the post-war era the games against small college teams disappeared, although some of our opponents are now FCS. But keep in mind that ‘FCS’ is Division 1 but there’s a championship those teams can’t win. Wagner can’t win at all in FCS, having lost 23 games in a row. They’ve twice played Syracuse before. A 3-8 Wagner team lot 0-54 in 2013 and a 4-7 Wagner team lost 10-62 in 2018. This team is worse than those teams.

And what does it do for SU to blow-out teams from the lower divisions? Let’s look at the Dome Era.
In 1981 we beat Colgate 47-24 and lost to Navy 23-35 the next week.
In 1982 we beat Colgate 49-15 and lost to Navy 18-20, the first of three straight losses to end the season.
In 1987 we beat Colgate 52-6 and then won our last four games.
In 2002 we beat Rhode Island 63-17 and then lost out last four games.
In 2008 we beat Northeaster 30-21 but lost our next four games.
In 2009 we beat Maine 41-24 but lost our next two and five of six games.
In 2010 we beat Maine 38-14 and then Colgate 42-7 and then beat South Florida 13-9, lost to Pitt 14-45 but won 3 of the next four.
In 2011 we beat Rhode Island 21-14, then lost to Southern California 17-38 before winning 3 of 4.
In 2012 we beat Stony Brook 28-17, then lost 10-17 at Minnesota, beat Pitt 14-13 and lost to Rutgers 15-23
In 2013 we beat Wagner 54-0 after an 0-2 start, then beat Tulane 52-17 before losing 2 of 3.
In 2014 we barely got by Villanova 27-26, blew out Central Michigan 40-3 and went 1-9 the rest of the season.
In 2015 we beat Rhode Island 47-0 and then beat Wake Forest and Central Michigan before finishing 1-8.
In 2016 we opened beating Colgate 33-7, then came the Lamar Jackson game, 28-62 and 4 losses in 5 games.
In 2017 we opened beating Central Connecticut 50-7 and then lost to Middle Tennessee 23-30 and 3 for 4 games. (The middle of Tennessee is tougher than the middle of Connecticut.)
In 2018 we beat Wagner 62-10 and won the next two to go 4-0 on the way to 10-3.
In 2019 we beat Holy Cross 41-3 and then lost four in a row.
In 2021 we beat Albany 62-24 and then played four games in a row decided by a field goal, winning the first and losing the last three.
My conclusion is that a blow-out over an overmatched opponent doesn’t predict how well we will do against our other opponents and a closer-than-expected win doesn’t’ necessarily foretell disaster, either. You basically return to your mean, whatever that it is, no matter how mean you were to your visitors.
 

David332

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Wagner has no chance, just have to hope both sides walk away with no injuries. It’s a great game for homecoming though, will be nice to settle in and relax while watching the boys dominate.
 

SU in Hershey

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- When they pick up the paycheck and take it to the bank.

I find it disgusting that some small-time schools basically sell their players out by getting themselves a spot in FCS so they can get ‘guarantee games’ from schools that legitimately belong in Division 1. Wagner is not App State. My brother went to Hamilton College back in the 60’s and we used to visit him on a football weekend in the fall. Wagner was the toughest game on Hamilton’s schedule. They had three unbeaten teams in the 1960’s and were always tough to beat at that level:
In 1987, they reached the pinnacle of their gridiron achievements when they won the NCAA Division II championship. But their kids will never have another shot at a championship because the school moved up to FCS in 1993. This enables them to use their football players like boxing’s ‘tomatoes cans’ – opponents who are brought in to give the big time schools an extra home game and a sure but meaningless win where they can play everybody in exchange for a big check. The small-time school will say that that enables them to fund the rest of their athletic program but how did they do that before they sold out their football players by rising to a division they could never win? And that’s the purpose of divisions- to give everyone the possibility of winning a championship if they can keep winning games. The Wagner players cannot do that. They are just taking their lumps so the school can make money. What kind of an educational experience is that?

The Seahawks are likely the worst team Syracuse will have played in the entire post World War II Era. Before the war, Syracuse, like a lot of big-time schools, would start the season by playing 2-3 small college teams, then play the “big-time portion of their schedule”. Their real record would be how they fared against the latter:
Look at 1929, for example. We beat Hobart 77-0, St. Lawrence 55-0 and John’s Hopkins 85-6. Against everybody else, we were 3-3 and outscored the big-time opposition 42-40. In the post-war era the games against small college teams disappeared, although some of our opponents are now FCS. But keep in mind that ‘FCS’ is Division 1 but there’s a championship those teams can’t win. Wagner can’t win at all in FCS, having lost 23 games in a row. They’ve twice played Syracuse before. A 3-8 Wagner team lot 0-54 in 2013 and a 4-7 Wagner team lost 10-62 in 2018. This team is worse than those teams.

And what does it do for SU to blow-out teams from the lower divisions? Let’s look at the Dome Era.
In 1981 we beat Colgate 47-24 and lost to Navy 23-35 the next week.
In 1982 we beat Colgate 49-15 and lost to Navy 18-20, the first of three straight losses to end the season.
In 1987 we beat Colgate 52-6 and then won our last four games.
In 2002 we beat Rhode Island 63-17 and then lost out last four games.
In 2008 we beat Northeaster 30-21 but lost our next four games.
In 2009 we beat Maine 41-24 but lost our next two and five of six games.
In 2010 we beat Maine 38-14 and then Colgate 42-7 and then beat South Florida 13-9, lost to Pitt 14-45 but won 3 of the next four.
In 2011 we beat Rhode Island 21-14, then lost to Southern California 17-38 before winning 3 of 4.
In 2012 we beat Stony Brook 28-17, then lost 10-17 at Minnesota, beat Pitt 14-13 and lost to Rutgers 15-23
In 2013 we beat Wagner 54-0 after an 0-2 start, then beat Tulane 52-17 before losing 2 of 3.
In 2014 we barely got by Villanova 27-26, blew out Central Michigan 40-3 and went 1-9 the rest of the season.
In 2015 we beat Rhode Island 47-0 and then beat Wake Forest and Central Michigan before finishing 1-8.
In 2016 we opened beating Colgate 33-7, then came the Lamar Jackson game, 28-62 and 4 losses in 5 games.
In 2017 we opened beating Central Connecticut 50-7 and then lost to Middle Tennessee 23-30 and 3 for 4 games. (The middle of Tennessee is tougher than the middle of Connecticut.)
In 2018 we beat Wagner 62-10 and won the next two to go 4-0 on the way to 10-3.
In 2019 we beat Holy Cross 41-3 and then lost four in a row.
In 2021 we beat Albany 62-24 and then played four games in a row decided by a field goal, winning the first and losing the last three.
My conclusion is that a blow-out over an overmatched opponent doesn’t predict how well we will do against our other opponents and a closer-than-expected win doesn’t’ necessarily foretell disaster, either. You basically return to your mean, whatever that it is, no matter how mean you were to your visitors.
So, what you’re saying is, there’s…

Oh wait. You got zilch. Nada. Bupkis.

Well, Mr. Bored Historian…you just made your own bit of board history!

(But props to you. Your rant was informative, and yeah, a little sad :()
 

pfister1

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I don't disagree that some schools should do a better job of level setting so that the players they have not only don't get hurt, but can actually compete against the competitors on their schedule, but how do you definitively make that determination. I think Rhode Island and Maine are flagship state institutions in their respective states. They should have the resources available to compete that the D-1 level.

If we only went by margin of defeat than our hoops team might have been downgraded after we lost to DePaul 91-69 in 1980-81.
 

Pyle

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- When they pick up the paycheck and take it to the bank.

I find it disgusting that some small-time schools basically sell their players out by getting themselves a spot in FCS so they can get ‘guarantee games’ from schools that legitimately belong in Division 1. Wagner is not App State. My brother went to Hamilton College back in the 60’s and we used to visit him on a football weekend in the fall. Wagner was the toughest game on Hamilton’s schedule. They had three unbeaten teams in the 1960’s and were always tough to beat at that level:
In 1987, they reached the pinnacle of their gridiron achievements when they won the NCAA Division II championship. But their kids will never have another shot at a championship because the school moved up to FCS in 1993. This enables them to use their football players like boxing’s ‘tomatoes cans’ – opponents who are brought in to give the big time schools an extra home game and a sure but meaningless win where they can play everybody in exchange for a big check. The small-time school will say that that enables them to fund the rest of their athletic program but how did they do that before they sold out their football players by rising to a division they could never win? And that’s the purpose of divisions- to give everyone the possibility of winning a championship if they can keep winning games. The Wagner players cannot do that. They are just taking their lumps so the school can make money. What kind of an educational experience is that?

The Seahawks are likely the worst team Syracuse will have played in the entire post World War II Era. Before the war, Syracuse, like a lot of big-time schools, would start the season by playing 2-3 small college teams, then play the “big-time portion of their schedule”. Their real record would be how they fared against the latter:
Look at 1929, for example. We beat Hobart 77-0, St. Lawrence 55-0 and John’s Hopkins 85-6. Against everybody else, we were 3-3 and outscored the big-time opposition 42-40. In the post-war era the games against small college teams disappeared, although some of our opponents are now FCS. But keep in mind that ‘FCS’ is Division 1 but there’s a championship those teams can’t win. Wagner can’t win at all in FCS, having lost 23 games in a row. They’ve twice played Syracuse before. A 3-8 Wagner team lot 0-54 in 2013 and a 4-7 Wagner team lost 10-62 in 2018. This team is worse than those teams.

And what does it do for SU to blow-out teams from the lower divisions? Let’s look at the Dome Era.
In 1981 we beat Colgate 47-24 and lost to Navy 23-35 the next week.
In 1982 we beat Colgate 49-15 and lost to Navy 18-20, the first of three straight losses to end the season.
In 1987 we beat Colgate 52-6 and then won our last four games.
In 2002 we beat Rhode Island 63-17 and then lost out last four games.
In 2008 we beat Northeaster 30-21 but lost our next four games.
In 2009 we beat Maine 41-24 but lost our next two and five of six games.
In 2010 we beat Maine 38-14 and then Colgate 42-7 and then beat South Florida 13-9, lost to Pitt 14-45 but won 3 of the next four.
In 2011 we beat Rhode Island 21-14, then lost to Southern California 17-38 before winning 3 of 4.
In 2012 we beat Stony Brook 28-17, then lost 10-17 at Minnesota, beat Pitt 14-13 and lost to Rutgers 15-23
In 2013 we beat Wagner 54-0 after an 0-2 start, then beat Tulane 52-17 before losing 2 of 3.
In 2014 we barely got by Villanova 27-26, blew out Central Michigan 40-3 and went 1-9 the rest of the season.
In 2015 we beat Rhode Island 47-0 and then beat Wake Forest and Central Michigan before finishing 1-8.
In 2016 we opened beating Colgate 33-7, then came the Lamar Jackson game, 28-62 and 4 losses in 5 games.
In 2017 we opened beating Central Connecticut 50-7 and then lost to Middle Tennessee 23-30 and 3 for 4 games. (The middle of Tennessee is tougher than the middle of Connecticut.)
In 2018 we beat Wagner 62-10 and won the next two to go 4-0 on the way to 10-3.
In 2019 we beat Holy Cross 41-3 and then lost four in a row.
In 2021 we beat Albany 62-24 and then played four games in a row decided by a field goal, winning the first and losing the last three.
My conclusion is that a blow-out over an overmatched opponent doesn’t predict how well we will do against our other opponents and a closer-than-expected win doesn’t’ necessarily foretell disaster, either. You basically return to your mean, whatever that it is, no matter how mean you were to your visitors.
Sooooooo this ^^^^^^^ is what retirement looks like.
 

Pyle

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- When they pick up the paycheck and take it to the bank.

I find it disgusting that some small-time schools basically sell their players out by getting themselves a spot in FCS so they can get ‘guarantee games’ from schools that legitimately belong in Division 1. Wagner is not App State. My brother went to Hamilton College back in the 60’s and we used to visit him on a football weekend in the fall. Wagner was the toughest game on Hamilton’s schedule. They had three unbeaten teams in the 1960’s and were always tough to beat at that level:
In 1987, they reached the pinnacle of their gridiron achievements when they won the NCAA Division II championship. But their kids will never have another shot at a championship because the school moved up to FCS in 1993. This enables them to use their football players like boxing’s ‘tomatoes cans’ – opponents who are brought in to give the big time schools an extra home game and a sure but meaningless win where they can play everybody in exchange for a big check. The small-time school will say that that enables them to fund the rest of their athletic program but how did they do that before they sold out their football players by rising to a division they could never win? And that’s the purpose of divisions- to give everyone the possibility of winning a championship if they can keep winning games. The Wagner players cannot do that. They are just taking their lumps so the school can make money. What kind of an educational experience is that?

The Seahawks are likely the worst team Syracuse will have played in the entire post World War II Era. Before the war, Syracuse, like a lot of big-time schools, would start the season by playing 2-3 small college teams, then play the “big-time portion of their schedule”. Their real record would be how they fared against the latter:
Look at 1929, for example. We beat Hobart 77-0, St. Lawrence 55-0 and John’s Hopkins 85-6. Against everybody else, we were 3-3 and outscored the big-time opposition 42-40. In the post-war era the games against small college teams disappeared, although some of our opponents are now FCS. But keep in mind that ‘FCS’ is Division 1 but there’s a championship those teams can’t win. Wagner can’t win at all in FCS, having lost 23 games in a row. They’ve twice played Syracuse before. A 3-8 Wagner team lot 0-54 in 2013 and a 4-7 Wagner team lost 10-62 in 2018. This team is worse than those teams.

And what does it do for SU to blow-out teams from the lower divisions? Let’s look at the Dome Era.
In 1981 we beat Colgate 47-24 and lost to Navy 23-35 the next week.
In 1982 we beat Colgate 49-15 and lost to Navy 18-20, the first of three straight losses to end the season.
In 1987 we beat Colgate 52-6 and then won our last four games.
In 2002 we beat Rhode Island 63-17 and then lost out last four games.
In 2008 we beat Northeaster 30-21 but lost our next four games.
In 2009 we beat Maine 41-24 but lost our next two and five of six games.
In 2010 we beat Maine 38-14 and then Colgate 42-7 and then beat South Florida 13-9, lost to Pitt 14-45 but won 3 of the next four.
In 2011 we beat Rhode Island 21-14, then lost to Southern California 17-38 before winning 3 of 4.
In 2012 we beat Stony Brook 28-17, then lost 10-17 at Minnesota, beat Pitt 14-13 and lost to Rutgers 15-23
In 2013 we beat Wagner 54-0 after an 0-2 start, then beat Tulane 52-17 before losing 2 of 3.
In 2014 we barely got by Villanova 27-26, blew out Central Michigan 40-3 and went 1-9 the rest of the season.
In 2015 we beat Rhode Island 47-0 and then beat Wake Forest and Central Michigan before finishing 1-8.
In 2016 we opened beating Colgate 33-7, then came the Lamar Jackson game, 28-62 and 4 losses in 5 games.
In 2017 we opened beating Central Connecticut 50-7 and then lost to Middle Tennessee 23-30 and 3 for 4 games. (The middle of Tennessee is tougher than the middle of Connecticut.)
In 2018 we beat Wagner 62-10 and won the next two to go 4-0 on the way to 10-3.
In 2019 we beat Holy Cross 41-3 and then lost four in a row.
In 2021 we beat Albany 62-24 and then played four games in a row decided by a field goal, winning the first and losing the last three.
My conclusion is that a blow-out over an overmatched opponent doesn’t predict how well we will do against our other opponents and a closer-than-expected win doesn’t’ necessarily foretell disaster, either. You basically return to your mean, whatever that it is, no matter how mean you were to your visitors.
You answered your own question as well. What good does it do to beat Wagner? See 2018...I'll wait. You done? Now tell me we shouldn't play Wagner every freaking year!
 

OrangeinOmaha

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Interesting to look at the comparison as to what cuse did after FCS games in the past. This game is in a very different position than the earlier FCS games in seasons past it feels like. We have already played 2 ACC teams and a Big 10 team, I do not believe we have played 2 conference games before our FCS game before.

Also the bye week after the FCS game is interesting considering this is like having 2 bye weeks. Yes you can never over look an opponent but lets be honest, this game will be over after the first 3 Syracuse drives. After half time it should be all reps for the second and third string while the starters rest. This could be beneficial with the bye week next while NC State goes Clemson and then Florida State before coming to the dome. I know a lot of people said the next stretch of games is unfair for us but this is brutal for NC State while our starters have had basically 2 weeks to rest. Hell you can even look at Clemson who has NC State @BC @FSU before we go to Death Valley as a tough break for them while we play 1 FBS team in that stretch.

Honestly the Wagner/Bye Week back to back is going to pay off I think heading into the 4 game gauntlet.
 

orangenauburn

2020 Cali Award Winner, Rcv Yds/TD Rcpts 11 Games
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This will probably be the quickest game we play all year.

Vanilla plays to keep the clock moving
 

NineOneSeven

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D2 is most often times worse than D3… and Wagner, who’d probably crush most D3 teams, is the bottom of their barrel.

Couple inches, couple pounds and couple tenths of a second… game of inches.
Can you explain that?
 

orangenauburn

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D3 is better football. Especially in the Northeast and Midwest. Athletes are relatively similar but the perennial D3 programs are stronger. Opinion Ofcourse. But that’s the way it’s historically been.
Agreed. There are some really good D3 programs out there
 

SWC75

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You answered your own question as well. What good does it do to beat Wagner? See 2018...I'll wait. You done? Now tell me we shouldn't play Wagner every freaking year!


If we are going to play an FCS team, let's play Colgate every year. That would at least have some historical meaning and promote CNY sports and the economy. I'd love every season to begin in the Dome vs. Colgate, then a home and home with Army, a Group of 5 team, a Power 5 team and then the ACC.
 
Last edited:

SWC75

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D2 is most often times worse than D3… and Wagner, who’d probably crush most D3 teams, is the bottom of their barrel.

Couple inches, couple pounds and couple tenths of a second… game of inches.

Division 1 should be the Power 5, (or better the top 72 football programs of the century so far organized into eight 9 team conferences, the eight champions of which would play for the national title). Division 2 should be the Group of 5 + FCS. Division 3 should be the current Divisions 2 and 3 plus the NAIA teams.
 

SWC75

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Agreed. There are some really good D3 programs out there

You can't hand out scholarships in D3 but that doesn't mean you can't build facilities you'd expect to see in the higher divisions. I think the schools that have dominated in D3 in recent years, (Mount Union, Whitewater, Mary Hardin Baylor, North Central might be as good or better than most of DII, (whose top teams may be doing the same thing) and even comparable to FCS teams. I'm sure they are better than the teams that were winning DIII titles back when Ithaca, Wittenburg, Dayton and Augustana were winning them back in the 70's and 80's.
 

Dinkyspond

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D3 is better football. Especially in the Northeast and Midwest. Athletes are relatively similar but the perennial D3 programs are stronger. Opinion Ofcourse. But that’s the way it’s historically been.
That OT on Tampa Bay, Marpett(?), played D3 at Hobart, the guy is huge, you would've thought a D1 school would have taken a flier on him on size alone.
 

SWC75

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That OT on Tampa Bay, Marpett(?), played D3 at Hobart, the guy is huge, you would've thought a D1 school would have taken a flier on him on size alone.

The undefeated Dolphins of 1972 had a fine linebacker from Amherst, Doug Swift.
 

Dinkyspond

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The undefeated Dolphins of 1972 had a fine linebacker from Amherst, Doug Swift.
I think there was a WR recently on Washington when they were still the Redskins from D3 powerhouse Mount Union
 

RICuse44

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That OT on Tampa Bay, Marpett(?), played D3 at Hobart, the guy is huge, you would've thought a D1 school would have taken a flier on him on size alone.

Pierre garçon was the receiver from mount union. Just about every league in D3 has a couple of kids getting looks from the pros. I played in the nescac in the 90s and that was definitely the case.

The issue isn’t size at D3. It’s speed.

So much variability in D3 it’s crazy. Some could get beat by high school teams while others would hang with/beat ivy and patriot league programs.
 

HtownOrange

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You answered your own question as well. What good does it do to beat Wagner? See 2018...I'll wait. You done? Now tell me we shouldn't play Wagner every freaking year!
I second your motion with 1987.
 

kirbivore

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hopefully we give Dino a break from clock mgt for a week.


Stressed Spongebob Squarepants GIF
 

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