With Kobe retiring...

[Knicks411]

11 rings including the last 2 as player/coach. Russell clearly knew when to retire as Kareem was getting ready to be drafted.
I just give those 11 rings respect to put him 2nd. He dominated Wilt in their Era. Wilt only won 1 title while Russel was in the league and those Warriors/Lakers he was on were stacked as well as the Celtics.

Russell was 1 inch short than Kevin Durant is now but his D dominated that era. Shaq and Wilt had similar careers. The refs allowed them to be played different than everyone else and neither guy got everything they could out of their talent. Wilt stayed in better shape but both choked before winning 2 titles for Wilt and 4 for Shaq.

I just put Russell ahead of Kareem for winning. Kareem was probably the better player if I could pick them in their primes.

I think that's a bit of a stretch. The Lakers teams were great at the end, but that was closer to the end of Wilt's career.

 

[Alsacs]

I think that's a bit of a stretch. The Lakers teams were great at the end, but that was closer to the end of Wilt's career.

Billy Cunningham, Hal Greer, Lucious Jackson-Philly, Nate Thurmond-SF Elgin Baylor, Jerry West-LA were his teammates.

Russell had Jojo White/Bob Cousy at PG, Havilcek late, Sam Jones, and good roles players.

The NBA wasn't stacked in Boston. Russell's D was huge and their coach was pretty good.

 

[Knicks411]

Billy Cunningham, Hal Greer, Lucious Jackson-Philly, Nate Thurmond-SF Elgin Baylor, Jerry West-LA were his teammates.

Russell had Jojo White/Bob Cousy at PG, Havilcek late, Sam Jones, and good roles players.

The NBA wasn't stacked in Boston. Russell's D was huge and their coach was pretty good.

Hondo was a rookie in 62-63, he played 7 years with Russell, I don't think that would qualify as "late". He was all NBA second team 4 times in those years. Cousy also played 7 years with Russell, in those 5 years he made all NBA first team 5 times and second team twice. Bill Sharman played 5 years with Russell and made 3 all NBA first teams and a second. Just to be clear, that means 3 times Russell had both halves of the all NBA first team backcourt on his roster. Sam Jones played basically his whole career with Russell, he "only" made second teal all league twice. Tommy Heinsohn was a "role player" who made all NBA second team 4 times.

Wilt played half a season with Thurmond before being traded, so I don't think you can really count him. Agreed the Lakers were stacked (though Elgin retired in middle of the 72 season) but he was there 5 years and they made the finals 4 times.

Greer was real good, he made second team all league 4 times with Wilt, Jackson never made all NBA, Wilt and Cunningham played together for 3 years and Cinningham didn't make all NBA till after he left.

I think Russell played with more high level talent than Wilt.

 

[MikeSU02]

Agreed, and in debates like this I tend to favor longevity. (Definitely in baseball, basketball is a little different because one individual player can make such a huge difference, but still)

To me, Walton just doesn't have long enough of a peak. Maybe I'm not being fair, but also, it's clear the guy was just never going to be able to hold up to the rigors of an 82 game season.

Btw, has anyone read breaks of the game?

Fantastic book. Great read even if you aren't a sports fan.

 

[Knicks411]

Fantastic book. Great read even if you aren't a sports fan.

I only read it maybe 2 years ago; it was hilarious to me how many of the things about the sports world he was writing about are still true today. My favorite, sadly, was probably the bit about the Knicks focusing on highly paid guys who were scorers only. (Think it was Spencer Haywood in the book?)

 

[MikeSU02]

Agreed, and in debates like this I tend to favor longevity. (Definitely in baseball, basketball is a little different because one individual player can make such a huge difference, but still)

To me, Walton just doesn't have long enough of a peak. Maybe I'm not being fair, but also, it's clear the guy was just never going to be able to hold up to the rigors of an 82 game season.

Btw, has anyone read breaks of the game?

Ok, here is my all-time short peak team. Whether cut off by injury or something else, guys that should have had elite status for longer periods of time than actually occurred:

PG: Penny Hardaway
SG: T-Mac
SF: Bernard King
PF: Shawn Kemp
C: Bill Walton

Thoughts?

 

[br801]

Ok, here is my all-time short peak team. Whether cut off by injury or something else, guys that should have had elite status for longer periods of time than actually occurred:

PG: Penny Hardaway
SG: T-Mac
SF: Bernard King
PF: Shawn Kemp
C: Bill Walton

Thoughts?

That's a good list. I might put David Thompson on there at SG and Maurice Stokes at PF.

 

[UnknownOrange]

11 rings including the last 2 as player/coach. Russell clearly knew when to retire as Kareem was getting ready to be drafted.
I just give those 11 rings respect to put him 2nd. He dominated Wilt in their Era. Wilt only won 1 title while Russel was in the league and those Warriors/Lakers he was on were stacked as well as the Celtics.

Russell was 1 inch short than Kevin Durant is now but his D dominated that era. Shaq and Wilt had similar careers. The refs allowed them to be played different than everyone else and neither guy got everything they could out of their talent. Wilt stayed in better shape but both choked before winning 2 titles for Wilt and 4 for Shaq.

I just put Russell ahead of Kareem for winning. Kareem was probably the better player if I could pick them in their primes.

I hear you. Winning is not the be-all-end-all but it definitely helps in comparing similar players. I have all the respect in the world for BR but I just feel he had an "easier" path to become great. To the same argument Wilt did as well and couldn't hang with BR but you at least see my point. Different eras are tough to compare exactly, but I still would have BR in my top 5 over wilt but behind Jordan Kareem Magic and ahead of either Kobe or Duncan. I think Wilt was great but some of that is taken back by only having 1 ring in an "easier" era to be great

 

[UnknownOrange]

Ok, here is my all-time short peak team. Whether cut off by injury or something else, guys that should have had elite status for longer periods of time than actually occurred:

PG: Penny Hardaway
SG: T-Mac
SF: Bernard King
PF: Shawn Kemp
C: Bill Walton

Thoughts?

Lol by something else on Shawn Kemp you mean the bong rips at halftime of games? :rolling:

 

[MikeSU02]

That's a good list. I might put David Thompson on there at SG and Maurice Stokes at PF.

Thompson and Stokes are great choices as well. Can't believe I didn't think of Thompson.

What about Ralph Sampson?

 

[MikeSU02]

Lol by something else on Shawn Kemp you mean the bong rips at halftime of games? :rolling:

The lockout was not kind to Shawn Kemp, either.

 

[Knicks411]

Thompson is tough, he played in the ABA for a year the NBA for 8, and was really pretty damn good every year. He did retire relatively early, but kinda hard to compare him on a peak basis to Walton I think

 

[br801]

Thompson and Stokes are great choices as well. Can't believe I didn't think of Thompson.

What about Ralph Sampson?

Yes, Sampson of course fits. Yao, too. Hope Derrick Rose doesn't wind up on this list.

 

[br801]

Thompson is tough, he played in the ABA for a year the NBA for 8, and was really pretty damn good every year. He did retire relatively early, but kinda hard to compare him on a peak basis to Walton I think

Six great seasons for Thompson, then a shell of himself after age 26 and out of the game before 30.

 

[Knicks411]

Yes, Sampson of course fits. Yao, too. Hope Derrick Rose doesn't wind up on this list.

Rose is a good one, pretty sure he's going to end up on the list.

Not sure this exactly fits because he did play for a long time, but peak Grant Hill was an all time player.

 

[MikeSU02]

Rose is a good one, pretty sure he's going to end up on the list.

Not sure this exactly fits because he did play for a long time, but peak Grant Hill was an all time player.

Hill was really good. The fact that he ended up with 17K+ points even with all the injuries is really impressive.

 

[Melancer46]

Penny Hardaway still makes my heart hurt. Him and TMac... TMac was my favorite player growing up.

 

[CorduroyG]

Lets say lebron doesnt win another ring, is he still above kobe?

I think a very underrated part of kobe's legacy is that he had 2 mini dynasties with 2 completely different teams. The first 3peat with shaq, then that team gets completely dismantled, they suck for a couple years (even though kobe took the awful 06 team to the playoffs and should have beaten suns), then he gets back to 3 straight finals only a couple years later and wins back to back with the gasol odom crew. Thats pretty rare.

Jordan never won without pippen. Duncan won his 1st with robinson but all the others with parker and ginobili. Bird always had parrish and mchale. Lebron's 2 with wade and bosh. Magic never won without kareem.

Im trying to think of another superstar that won a championship, then the team basically starts over, then wins another championship with a completely different crew.

 

[MikeSU02]

Lets say lebron doesnt win another ring, is he still above kobe?

I think a very underrated part of kobe's legacy is that he had 2 mini dynasties with 2 completely different teams. The first 3peat with shaq, then that team gets completely dismantled, they suck for a couple years (even though kobe took the awful 06 team to the playoffs and should have beaten suns), then he gets back to 3 straight finals only a couple years later and wins back to back with the gasol odom crew. Thats pretty rare.

Jordan never won without pippen. Duncan won his 1st with robinson but all the others with parker and ginobili. Bird always had parrish and mchale. Lebron's 2 with wade and bosh. Magic never won without kareem.

Im trying to think of another superstar that won a championship, then the team basically starts over, then wins another championship with a completely different crew.

D Wade and Miami.

 

[Eric15]

To me, Walton just doesn't have long enough of a peak. Maybe I'm not being fair, but also, it's clear the guy was just never going to be able to hold up to the rigors of an 82 game season.

If you polled a random sample of basketball fans and asked them who has more NBA career points, Bill Walton or Billy Owens, I wonder how many would know the correct answer.

 

[br801]

If you polled a random sample of basketball fans and asked them who has more NBA career points, Bill Walton or Billy Owens, I wonder how many would know the correct answer.

Most of the ones who could actually identify Billy Owens would get it right... I think.

 

[MikeSU02]

Lets say lebron doesnt win another ring, is he still above kobe?

I think a very underrated part of kobe's legacy is that he had 2 mini dynasties with 2 completely different teams. The first 3peat with shaq, then that team gets completely dismantled, they suck for a couple years (even though kobe took the awful 06 team to the playoffs and should have beaten suns), then he gets back to 3 straight finals only a couple years later and wins back to back with the gasol odom crew. Thats pretty rare.

Jordan never won without pippen. Duncan won his 1st with robinson but all the others with parker and ginobili. Bird always had parrish and mchale. Lebron's 2 with wade and bosh. Magic never won without kareem.

Im trying to think of another superstar that won a championship, then the team basically starts over, then wins another championship with a completely different crew.

Yes. Bron > Kobe without any more rings for Bron.

Bron took that 2007 CLE team to the finals, winning 60+ games, that had absolutely no business winning the east.

He's been to five straight finals.

Kobe wasn't the best player for the first three of his titles.

Bron has also never had a coach nearly as good as Phil.

You give Bron a superstar big like Shaq and he'd win 65 games per year and walk to the title.

With all that said, I have Kobe as a top ten player all time and Bron top five. They are both insanely talented.

EDIT: meant Kobe as top ten. Not top five.

 

[MikeSU02]

Penny Hardaway still makes my heart hurt. Him and TMac... TMac was my favorite player growing up.

The T-Mac / Kobe argument used to be a legit argument.

 

[Knicks411]

Lets say lebron doesnt win another ring, is he still above kobe?

I think a very underrated part of kobe's legacy is that he had 2 mini dynasties with 2 completely different teams. The first 3peat with shaq, then that team gets completely dismantled, they suck for a couple years (even though kobe took the awful 06 team to the playoffs and should have beaten suns), then he gets back to 3 straight finals only a couple years later and wins back to back with the gasol odom crew. Thats pretty rare.

Jordan never won without pippen. Duncan won his 1st with robinson but all the others with parker and ginobili. Bird always had parrish and mchale. Lebron's 2 with wade and bosh. Magic never won without kareem.

Im trying to think of another superstar that won a championship, then the team basically starts over, then wins another championship with a completely different crew.

You mentioned Duncan, that's probably pretty close, but he still did have Robinson in 03, at a much reduced level, but still. Wade and Miami for sure.

Kareem changed teams, but he won the title in 71 with the Bucks and then not till 80 with the Lakers. How about John Havlicek? Was part of the Russell dynasty, last winning in 69, then wins in 74 and 76.

But yeah I'm putting Lebron over Kobe pretty much no matter what.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Thompson and Stokes are great choices as well. Can't believe I didn't think of Thompson.

What about Ralph Sampson?

Here's one maybe a step below these guys - Antonio mcdyess.