Year-End Final Grades (Part II)

[cliftonparksufan]

Finally added a JB section.

Good stuff. One thing that doesn't seem to be talked about much is how the synergy of the team was without Mike Hopkins (who supposedly was the good cop to JAB's bad cop). Did Thompson leave because Hop left? Did Moyer end up transferring because Hop wasn't there? I think we all agree that once Hop left that JAB stepped it up in recruiting including Dolezaj and Hughes who were added for the current roster and the 2019 guys. So far, that should give JAB a preseason "A" if everyone else returns, sans Battle.

I think JAB stepped it up and really became a coach again. Would love to hear thoughts from Jake and RF and others on their thoughts on how they would rate JAB in the post Hopkins era.

 

[newmexicuse]

Finally added a JB section.

again, your comments are insightful. i think you are letting jb off too easy on roster construction. personally, i felt when quade did not commit by mid summer that we should have backed off of all in and gone to plan b when there was still decent alternative talent available. thompson seemed antsy from the beginning, staff should not have been so surprised that he left. thorpe was a bad character evaluation derived from desperation after the quade fiasco. tucker turned out to be a lucky miss, but not a good evaluation by the staff. not jimmys fault about injuries to sid and washington.

the staff did do very well with oshae and marek. also great job with being patient with frank.

maybe my d above for roster construction was too harsh, but certainly no better than a c, which would give a b overall.

the roster should be deep and talented next season. i will want to see aggressiveness on both sides of the ball. a forty minute soft press, no tired legs, and better o sets.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Good stuff. One thing that doesn't seem to be talked about much is how the synergy of the team was without Mike Hopkins (who supposedly was the good cop to JAB's bad cop). Did Thompson leave because Hop left? Did Moyer end up transferring because Hop wasn't there? I think we all agree that once Hop left that JAB stepped it up in recruiting including Dolezaj and Hughes who were added for the current roster and the 2019 guys. So far, that should give JAB a preseason "A" if everyone else returns, sans Battle.

I think JAB stepped it up and really became a coach again. Would love to hear thoughts from Jake and RF and others on their thoughts on how they would rate JAB in the post Hopkins era.

And as one of the oft mentioned JB critics (think I'm ranked #6 on the Townie list), I have to say, I felt JB offered a less harsh tone throughout much of the year towards his players. Other than the Moyer thing, I can't really think of any other controversial statements we've seen in past years. I truly believe he understood these kids were being asked to do a lot and were working very hard every day.

Of maybe old age is actually mellowing him a bit.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

also great job with being patient with frank.

How many people wanted FH gone after last season? JAB seemed to be his only believer, and possibly the assistant coaches as well. That was a big win.

 

[SoBeCuse]

How many people wanted FH gone after last season? JAB seemed to be his only believer, and possibly the assistant coaches as well. That was a big win.

Yes, but not let’s forget there was nobody else. Either get Quade and go with him or when that failed play Frank and build him up/coddle him which is what occured late summer/early in the season. There is no way you can convince me that JB and the staff weren’t scared to death of the PG situation going into this season with how Frank played last year and combined with how hard and desperately they tried for Quade. Then they get Geno. If you have another good option Frank is getting pulled from a game like UConn or that stretch against Wake/ND/UVA.

But, the kid showed a lot of mental toughness and improved a TON. Credit to him. But, to say that JB was all of a sudden a believer when Quade failed would be a fallacy, IMO. He had no choice.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

Yes, but not let’s forget there was nobody else. Either get Quade and go with him or when that failed play Frank and build him up/coddle him which is what occured late summer/early in the season. There is no way you can convince me that JB and the staff weren’t scared to death of the PG situation going into this season with how Frank played last year and combined with how hard and desperately they tried for Quade. Then they get Geno. If you have another good option Frank is getting pulled from a game like UConn or that stretch against Wake/ND/UVA.

But, the kid showed a lot of mental toughness and improved a TON. Credit to him. But, to say that JB was all of a sudden a believer when Quade failed would be a fallacy, IMO. He had no choice.

Your points are 100% valid but many people thought he was a cancer and should be gone (possibly without looking at the big picture). Instead, he has turned out to be a pretty good teammate and a pretty solid player. JAB and staff do need props post Hop on this.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Your points are 100% valid but many people thought he was a cancer and should be gone (possibly without looking at the big picture). Instead, he has turned out to be a pretty good teammate and a pretty solid player. JAB and staff do need props post Hop on this.

Agreed. It worked out well.

 

[manleyzoo]

And as one of the oft mentioned JB critics (think I'm ranked #6 on the Townie list), I have to say, I felt JB offered a less harsh tone throughout much of the year towards his players. Other than the Moyer thing, I can't really think of any other controversial statements we've seen in past years. I truly believe he understood these kids were being asked to do a lot and were working very hard every day.

Of maybe old age is actually mellowing him a bit.

It's not like he could Boeheim or Roberson a guy like in the past. He only had six guys.

 

[manleyzoo]

Yes, but not let’s forget there was nobody else. Either get Quade and go with him or when that failed play Frank and build him up/coddle him which is what occured late summer/early in the season. There is no way you can convince me that JB and the staff weren’t scared to death of the PG situation going into this season with how Frank played last year and combined with how hard and desperately they tried for Quade. Then they get Geno. If you have another good option Frank is getting pulled from a game like UConn or that stretch against Wake/ND/UVA.

But, the kid showed a lot of mental toughness and improved a TON. Credit to him. But, to say that JB was all of a sudden a believer when Quade failed would be a fallacy, IMO. He had no choice.

Does it really matter how the staff helped Frank to get better? There are lots of ways to bring the best out in people. If building up or coddling as you say worked, more power to the staff and to Frank, as you said.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Does it really matter how the staff helped Frank to get better? There are lots of ways to bring the best out in people. If building up or coddling as you say worked, more power to the staff and to Frank, as you said.

You’re right it doesn’t matter. We’re talking about different issues though. I was responding more to Clifton in regards to the need to coddle/build him up PRE-season and early season because there was nobody else. But, the plan was not to have Frank start, IMO. Or at least play him so much at the 1. I mean they went after Quade with everything they had. No reasonable mind would want Frank as the main ballhandler going into this season after the disaster of the season before. But, once that failed there was damage control. No question the coaches did a great job with him. Frank and the coaches deserve a lot of credit. But, there was no choice once Quade failed and Geno left.

 

[rrlbees]

You’re right it doesn’t matter. We’re talking about different issues though. I was responding more to Clifton in regards to the need to coddle/build him up PRE-season and early season because there was nobody else. But, the plan was not to have Frank start, IMO. Or at least play him so much at the 1. I mean they went after Quade with everything they had. No reasonable mind would want Frank as the main ballhandler going into this season after the disaster of the season before. But, once that failed there was damage control. No question the coaches did a great job with him. Frank and the coaches deserve a lot of credit. But, there was no choice once Quade failed and Geno left.

You keep saying these things but have no idea whether it’s right. We went hard after a guard cause we only had 2. Frank with the ball wasn’t a disaster. His A/To ratio was better last year. Thorpe couldn’t and wouldn’t have beaten out frank. No guarantee green would have either. I don’t think he would have. Defense would have gone backwards and that’s the only reason we won. Green wasn’t going to average more points nor assists than Frank did.

 

[SoBeCuse]

You keep saying these things but have no idea whether it’s right. We went hard after a guard cause we only had 2. Frank with the ball wasn’t a disaster. His A/To ratio was better last year. Thorpe couldn’t and wouldn’t have beaten out frank. No guarantee green would have either. I don’t think he would have. Defense would have gone backwards and that’s the only reason we won. Green wasn’t going to average more points nor assists than Frank did.

Thorpe was just help and depth yes. We say this now re: Quade but you mean to tell me JB didn’t pitch him the keys to the bus here if he committed? Especially how the year before went with the PGs? This is Syracuse not Duke or UK where 5* dudes come in droves and compete for playing time. We usually don’t get those guys. Quade was a prized recruit and I haven’t seen the staff ever go harder for player in my lifetime with the eggs in one basket approach and turning down other PGs. That tells me they were desperate.

Now, once the season/practices started if Quade underperformed then it’s Frank’s turn and gig, sure. But, if you have the gaul to tell me that you think JB wanted Frank as the starter during the Quade recruitment then by all means keep whistlin’ Dixie.

 

[manleyzoo]

Thorpe was just help and depth yes. We say this now re: Quade but you mean to tell me JB didn’t pitch him the keys to the bus here if he committed? Especially how the year before went with the PGs? This is Syracuse not Duke or UK where 5* dudes come in droves and compete for playing time. We usually don’t get those guys. Quade was a prized recruit and I haven’t seen the staff ever go harder for player in my lifetime with the eggs in one basket approach and turning down other PGs. That tells me they were desperate.

Now, once the season/practices started if Quade underperformed then it’s Frank’s turn and gig, sure. But, if you have the gaul to tell me that you think JB wanted Frank as the starter during the Quade recruitment then by all means keep whistlin’ Dixie.

Maybe a little history will help you. Perhaps you're not old enough or informed well enough to know how the staff bet the farm and then some on Kenny Anderson, supposedly putting Bobby Hurley on the back burner. With Anderson, we very well could have won the whole thing that year. Sorry but the Green recruitment was nothing compared to the effort that went into Anderson. Not close. We also went whole hog after Stephon Marbury, although our chances of getting him were never good. Also, JB and company went all in on Julius Hodge to where Warrick was put on the back burner until Hodge announced for NC State and also on Donyell Marshall who went to UConn, turning down a number of other forwards. Green isn't even in the same book as any of those guys.

The thing with freshman, no matter how highly they're touted is you never know what you have until they actually step on the floor in October. Judging from his early performances at Kentucky, where he had much better players around him than we had, he still took second fiddle to Gilgeous-Alexander. If he'd been all that great he would have made more of an impact. Seems like you're pumping up Green way beyond what he actually is, which is a nice, smallish guard but that's kinda it. There are lots of guys around just like him. The Frank that showed up last fall wasn't the Frank of his sophomore year. Sorry but I call Frank b.s. again.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Maybe a little history will help you. Perhaps you're not old enough or informed well enough to know how the staff bet the farm and then some on Kenny Anderson, supposedly putting Bobby Hurley on the back burner. With Anderson, we very well could have won the whole thing that year. Sorry but the Green recruitment was nothing compared to the effort that went into Anderson. Not close. We also went whole hog after Stephon Marbury, although our chances of getting him were never good. Also, JB and company went all in on Julius Hodge to where Warrick was put on the back burner until Hodge announced for NC State and also on Donyell Marshall who went to UConn, turning down a number of other forwards. Green isn't even in the same book as any of those guys.

The thing with freshman, no matter how highly they're touted is you never know what you have until they actually step on the floor in October. Judging from his early performances at Kentucky, where he had much better players around him than we had, he still took second fiddle to Gilgeous-Alexander. If he'd been all that great he would have made more of an impact. Seems like you're pumping up Green way beyond what he actually is, which is a nice, smallish guard but that's kinda it. There are lots of guys around just like him. The Frank that showed up last fall wasn't the Frank of his sophomore year. Sorry but I call Frank b.s. again.

Thanks for the lesson Pa. I was in my teens then so wasn’t following recruiting closely. Makes sense though especially since Marbury and Kenny Anderson were Kings of New York at the time. Much more high profile.

But, either my point is being cleverly ignored or it’s lost in translation. Again, I’m talking IN live time and in the moment regarding Quade and going into this season. I could care less what Quade did this year. I’m well aware about SGA (don’t get me started about his recruitment) also especially since he became one of my favorite players to watch in the country. But back to Quade. Regardless, they went after him very hard. For the last time I’m talking going INTO this past season. Not what Quade did there or what Frank did this season here. Nobody can convince me that the plan WAS to have Frank be the starting PG when we were in the heat of the moment with the Quade recruitment. After what transpired between Gillon and Frank, Green was being viewed as a PG savior-type and there is no way in hell he wasn’t being promised the keys to the bus, IMO.

Again, things could’ve totally changed if he struggled and played like he did at UK. Then Frank would be back in the circle of trust and have his chance. Once Quade committed to UK it was damage control and all focus shifted to building Frank up since he’s the guy by default now. By and large it worked out pretty well. That doesn’t mean that this was the plan all along.

 

[manleyzoo]

Thanks for the lesson Pa. I was in my teens then so wasn’t following recruiting closely. Makes sense though especially since Marbury and Kenny Anderson were Kings of New York at the time. Much more high profile.

But, either my point is being cleverly ignored or it’s lost in translation. Again, I’m talking IN live time and in the moment regarding Quade and going into this season. I could care less what Quade did this year. I’m well aware about SGA (don’t get me started about his recruitment) also especially since he became one of my favorite players to watch in the country. But back to Quade. Regardless, they went after him very hard. For the last time I’m talking going INTO this past season. Not what Quade did there or what Frank did this season here. Nobody can convince me that the plan WAS to have Frank be the starting PG when we were in the heat of the moment with the Quade recruitment. After what transpired between Gillon and Frank, Green was being viewed as the savior and there is no way in hell he wasn’t being promised the keys to the bus.

Again, things could’ve changed if he struggled and played like he did at UK. Then Frank would be back in the circle of trust and have his chance. Once Quade committed to UK it was damage control and all focus shifted to building Frank up since he’s the guy by default now. By and large it worked out pretty well. That doesn’t mean that this was the plan all along.

No problem, son. I must remind you that youth is no excuse for ignorance. When you declare that no recruitment has ever exceeded Green's you should know what you're talking about. A simple web search would have fixed that for you real quick like. I understand your point, I just don't think it's much of one. You say that going INTO the season, no one can convince you that Frank was JB's first choice at the point. Only when we were out of options did Frank get the nod. Your assumptions are JB promised the keys to Green and he was relying on sophomore Frank to judge junior Frank until proven otherwise. Sad for you, there's not much meat on that bone. You say Green was being viewed as the savior. Let me remind you that there has been only one guy in the program's history who JB considered the savior and that was Pearl when the program was gaining national stature. Yes, I know you were in grade school then so you didn't pay much attention to such things. But savior and program go together with only one name in the program's history. No guard as ordinary as Green would ever be anointed the program's savior. The program doesn't need a savior it needs good players. They aren't the same thing.

 

[SoBeCuse]

No problem, son. I must remind you that youth is no excuse for ignorance. When you declare that no recruitment has ever exceeded Green's you should know what you're talking about. A simple web search would have fixed that for you real quick like. I understand your point, I just don't think it's much of one. You say that going INTO the season, no one can convince you that Frank was JB's first choice at the point. Only when we were out of options did Frank get the nod. Your assumptions are JB promised the keys to Green and he was relying on sophomore Frank to judge junior Frank until proven otherwise. Sad for you, there's not much meat on that bone. You say Green was being viewed as the savior. Let me remind you that there has been only one guy in the program's history who JB considered the savior and that was Pearl when the program was gaining national stature. Yes, I know you were in grade school then so you didn't pay much attention to such things. But savior and program go together with only one name in the program's history. No guard as ordinary as Green would ever be anointed the program's savior. The program doesn't need a savior it needs good players. They aren't the same thing.

I used savior sort of in jest because the PG situation was so grim going into the season. Again, hence the vigor and pressing the situation was for getting Green.

I did say in my lifetime of truly following so forgive my “ignorance” by not remembering some of those other recruitments. We’ve only had hundreds since then to choose from and compare to. Not much meat on the bone to support your take either. It’s amazing to me how one can fathom a coveted 5* PG wasn’t being offered the keys to the bus with what transpired the season before and the quality of play of the PGs. I’m done with this and you.

 

[manleyzoo]

Not-in-your-lifetime is quite the hedge -- sorry to inform you but the program has existed long before you. Not hundreds of guards recruited that we went all in on. Only a few. You "remembered" only the latest one. Why not admit it, you didn't know what you were talking about? I didn't read your posts on the Green recruitment -- were you one of those saying the sky had fallen because he went to UK? The point is if you know for a fact that Green was given the keys then that's one thing. But assuming it is quite another and not worth defending so strenuously.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

Not-in-your-lifetime is quite the hedge -- sorry to inform you but the program has existed long before you. Not hundreds of guards recruited that we went all in on. Only a few. You "remembered" only the latest one. Why n averaging ot admit it, you didn't know what you were talking about? I didn't read your posts on the Green recruitment -- were you one of those saying the sky had fallen because he went to UK? The point is if you know for a fact that Green was given the keys then that's one thing. But assuming it is quite another and not worth defending so strenuously.

I'm not taking sides in this family feud but our team was extremely fortunate this season. Whatever you want to believe about Green or not, the important thing was that the depth that we might have had at the guard positions never materialized. We ended up playing two guys almost 40 minutes every game, one of which made a huge leap after barely averaging 16 minutes a game the year before and fortunately both guys were pretty consistent all season long. What happened might not ever be duplicated.

 

[newmexicuse]

Maybe a little history will help you. Perhaps you're not old enough or informed well enough to know how the staff bet the farm and then some on Kenny Anderson, supposedly putting Bobby Hurley on the back burner. With Anderson, we very well could have won the whole thing that year. Sorry but the Green recruitment was nothing compared to the effort that went into Anderson. Not close. We also went whole hog after Stephon Marbury, although our chances of getting him were never good. Also, JB and company went all in on Julius Hodge to where Warrick was put on the back burner until Hodge announced for NC State and also on Donyell Marshall who went to UConn, turning down a number of other forwards. Green isn't even in the same book as any of those guys.

The thing with freshman, no matter how highly they're touted is you never know what you have until they actually step on the floor in October. Judging from his early performances at Kentucky, where he had much better players around him than we had, he still took second fiddle to Gilgeous-Alexander. If he'd been all that great he would have made more of an impact. Seems like you're pumping up Green way beyond what he actually is, which is a nice, smallish guard but that's kinda it. There are lots of guys around just like him. The Frank that showed up last fall wasn't the Frank of his sophomore year. Sorry but I call Frank b.s. again.

I like your post overall, but as I recall we were the leader and the favorite for Marbury until the end. It seems that i can recall pictures of him wearing a Cuse cap.

i could be wrong, but i am not remembering that we were a ever clearcut leader for Anderson.

Can't really say if more effort went into Green V Anderson and Marbury, but it is pretty clear the staff to this day has not learned about putting all eggs in one basket.

One of us is mixed up.

help SWC !!!

 

[manleyzoo]

I like your post overall, but as I recall we were the leader and the favorite for Marbury until the end. It seems that i can recall pictures of him wearing a Cuse cap.

i could be wrong, but i am not remembering that we were a ever clearcut leader for Anderson.

Can't really say if more effort went into Green V Anderson and Marbury, but it is pretty clear the staff to this day has not learned about putting all eggs in one basket.

One of us is mixed up.

help SWC !!!

Sherm was a senior the year we went all in on Anderson. This is an interesting read on Anderson's recruiting. I remember we were right there to get him until Cremins at Ga Tech apparently flashed some $$ his way. They also shelled out some big bucks to get Marbury. If memory serves, no one else had much of a chance.

<<Yellow Jackets paid more than $7,600 to wine and dine Marbury, which included over $4,500 for a private jet from New York to Atlanta, a few days at the swanky Occidental Hotel and a catered meal at then-men’s basketball coach Bobby Cremins’ house.>>

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