Yesterday was a classic example of SU needing

[br801]

Woulllllllld we really call Josh Pace a big man? Really?

Go to 14 seconds...

Lots of small forwards on that list.

 

[Ghost]

For what it's worth, I don't think your info backs up your assumption of difference in development.

I don't think we've had many players EVER improve as much as Rak from freshman to senior year. Of the other 2, one is a one and done, and another derailed by chronic injury. So using those 3 as examples of not developing our bigs doesn't quite seem to work.

I'm not saying your point doesn't perhaps have merit - just perhaps not with that sample.

I think Christmas is an indictment of how bad we are at development more than anything. He came in with a very nice skill set, and we got one great year out of him. Sad.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Lots of small forwards on that list.

It's funny to me that Josh Pace at 6'5" is the same size as or shorter than the two guys who started as guards before Howard was sat down. Maybe JB has taken this big guards on the top of the zone thing a bit too far.

 

[721Comstock]

Lots of small forwards on that list.

And Stevie Thompson, who was like 6'2" in reality, and we basically played a 3-guard offense, because he could rebound so well for his height. Kinda a stretch to even call him a forward, much less a "big".

If you want to give Bernie Fine credit for him, then you need to deduct for him never learning to shoot, period.
FT's, 3 pointers, you name it - Stevie couldn't hit water falling out of a boat -

...except for dunks and layups. He made a LOT of dunks and layups.

 

[br801]

Under Bernie Fine who was rated one of the best big men coaches for years, each one of these players got better from freshman to senior year.

Mike Lee
Roosevelt Bouie
Louie Orr
Rudy Hackett
Tony “Red” Bruin
Danny Schayes
Chris Sease
Andre Hawkins
Rony Seikaly
Stephen Thompson
Wendell Alexis
Ryan Blackwell
LeRon Ellis
Herman Harried
Otis Hill
Kueth Duany
Craig Forth
Demetris Nichols
Onauaku
Josh Pace
Leo Rautins

Bernie did not coach Mike Lee, Hackett and Sease, as all played for Roy Danforth and graduated before JB became head coach.

 

[Fat tire 13]

Under Bernie Fine who was rated one of the best big men coaches for years, each one of these players got better from freshman to senior year.

Mike Lee
Roosevelt Bouie
Louie Orr
Rudy Hackett
Tony “Red” Bruin
Danny Schayes
Chris Sease
Andre Hawkins
Rony Seikaly
Stephen Thompson
Wendell Alexis
Ryan Blackwell
LeRon Ellis
Herman Harried
Otis Hill
Kueth Duany
Craig Forth
Demetris Nichols
Onauaku
Josh Pace
Leo Rautins

To give a little credit to context, he could have been listing all players who improved regardless of position. I don't think the problem is developing big men, but rather the talent we are attracting. Sure, it's not the 1980s-1990s when there were many diamonds in the rough who stayed 4 years. Still, in the past 10 years there was Onauaku and Christmas. Another good example is Etan Thomas.

 

[Fat tire 13]

And Stevie Thompson, who was like 6'2" in reality, and we basically played a 3-guard offense, because he could rebound so well for his height. Kinda a stretch to even call him a forward, much less a "big".

If you want to give Bernie Fine credit for him, then you need to deduct for him never learning to shoot, period.
FT's, 3 pointers, you name it - Stevie couldn't hit water falling out of a boat -

...except for dunks and layups. He made a LOT of dunks and layups.

He was lots of fun to watch

 

[Longtimesu]

Woulllllllld we really call Josh Pace a big man? Really?

Go to 14 seconds...

No not big. But he was a forward. Bernie coached forwards and centers. Pace got better each year.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

No not big. But he was a forward. Bernie coached forwards and centers. Pace got better each year.

Guess I think of centers and power forwards when talking about big men, but I get your point. And he did get better. Whatever works, right?

 

[Longtimesu]

Bernie did not coach Mike Lee, Hackett and Sease, as all played for Roy Danforth and graduated before JB became head coach.

Not arguing. But if I remember, Bernie was a manager/coach beginning the 66'67 season. Lee, Hackett and Sease were at SU early to mid 70's.

 

[OttoMets]

Woulllllllld we really call Josh Pace a big man? Really?

Go to 14 seconds...

Oh, Fat Natalie. She'd be able to box one of our guys out.

 

[SBU72]

a real big man coach.We got out rebounded by 20 and UNC had as many offensive rebounds as we did defensive rebounds. UNC players schooled us in how to get into proper positions to control the boards big time.

UNC is not that much bigger at all except for the overall team strength.

Men's Basketball - Roster - University of North Carolina Tar Heels Official Athletic Site Their tallest player did not played yesterday.Plus it seems half their team is from NC .

Who is our last big man to make a real dent in the NBA ? I am not talking about limited bench role players either.

I'd like to see where you don't think UNC is "that much bigger" than SU. Meeks is 6'10" / 260 and Hicks is 6'9" / 242. Lydon is 6'9" / 223 and Robinson is 6'8" / 226. Thompson is 6'10" and 225. That's a huge difference in basketball! Just looking at the shoulders on Meeks should tell you he is bigger. Yes UNC is well schooled on rebounding both at positioning and in working the body. Watch them and they never seem to reach over a SU player, they were in the right place or bodied up to be in the right spot.

 

[Jasoncuse]

I think we need bigger and stronger interior players more so than a dedicated big man coach. Some offensive skills would help too.

Our interior players are an undersized Roberson, a skinny/weak TT and a weak Lydon. Those guys are always going to get bodied by stronger players, especially rebounding and finishing inside.

 

[SBU72]

I think Christmas is an indictment of how bad we are at development more than anything. He came in with a very nice skill set, and we got one great year out of him. Sad.

Xmas was not a skilled offensive player in hs. His senior year he average 11 ppg. I believe he hd the lowest avg on the McD's AA that year. Thats why it took him so long to develop on the O end. He was know for his defense, and made his reputation at summer camps.

 

[Cheriehoop]

a real big man coach.We got out rebounded by 20 and UNC had as many offensive rebounds as we did defensive rebounds. UNC players schooled us in how to get into proper positions to control the boards big time.

UNC is not that much bigger at all except for the overall team strength.

Men's Basketball - Roster - University of North Carolina Tar Heels Official Athletic Site Their tallest player did not played yesterday.Plus it seems half their team is from NC .

Who is our last big man to make a real dent in the NBA ? I am not talking about limited bench role players either.

Meeks and Hicks, both High School McDonald's All American's, are seniors, each an inch taller than Roberson, Lydon and out weigh them by 66 pounds. Wish Coleman had stayed injury free, bet he'd have been more than an equalizer of Meek's career.

Amazing how UNC keeps most of their bevy of McDonald's All Americans 4 years, some even buried on the bench.

 

[Jasoncuse]

Meeks and Hicks, both High School McDonald's All American's, are seniors, each an inch taller than Roberson, Lydon and out weigh them by 66 pounds. Wish Coleman had stayed injury free, bet he'd have been more than an equalizer of Meek's career.

Amazing how UNC keeps most of their bevy of McDonald's All Americans 4 years, some even buried on the bench.

That amazes me, too. Maybe they don't all stay all 4, but they seem to have AA's stay multiple seasons. Us getting Lydon to stay a 2nd year seems like a miracle compared to what we're used to. They'd get 4 years of Lydon or whoever.

Same with Kansas and their guards. They ALWAYS seem to have stud upperclassmen guards.

 

[AlaskaSU]

Big ass players are big rebounders.

 

[two3zone]

Stop with the big man coach crap, why don't we just get talented big men? When you get big men rated after 50 it's a crapshoot.

 

[Ghost]

Xmas was not a skilled offensive player in hs. His senior year he average 11 ppg. I believe he hd the lowest avg on the McD's AA that year. Thats why it took him so long to develop on the O end. He was know for his defense, and made his reputation at summer camps.

Eh, not gonna go look them all up again, but that stat used to get used all the time. If you compare some of the more potent offensive big men in those years out of HS a handful were averaging 10-15 points. HS stats are worthless.

 

[rrlbees]

Under Bernie Fine who was rated one of the best big men coaches for years, each one of these players got better from freshman to senior year. Mike Lee Roosevelt Bouie Louie Orr Rudy Hackett Tony “Red” Bruin Danny Schayes Chris Sease Andre Hawkins Rony Seikaly Stephen Thompson Wendell Alexis Ryan Blackwell LeRon Ellis Herman Harried Otis Hill Kueth Duany Craig Forth Demetris Nichols Onauaku Josh Pace Leo Rautins

Bernie didn't coach almost 1/2 those guys. A few were before Bernie and Bernie didn't coach the SF's.

 

[SU94]

Bernie Fine and he was a couch potato...are you happy now because since he left what has Hopkins produced?

It's been well established that Christmas's trajectory from junior to senior year was terrific.

Also, I think you have to give Hop some credit for Fab Melo and his jump in production from frosh to sophomore year. He worked with Melo those last few months before he was drafted. Nothing astronomical, but a solid jump nonetheless.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

a real big man coach.We got out rebounded by 20 and UNC had as many offensive rebounds as we did defensive rebounds. UNC players schooled us in how to get into proper positions to control the boards big time.

UNC is not that much bigger at all except for the overall team strength.

Men's Basketball - Roster - University of North Carolina Tar Heels Official Athletic Site Their tallest player did not played yesterday.Plus it seems half their team is from NC .

Who is our last big man to make a real dent in the NBA ? I am not talking about limited bench role players either.

UNC's raw materials are better than SU's raw materials. We have 2 guys who would be in the rotation at UNC. The others would not be on the team.

 

[Longtimesu]

Bernie didn't coach almost 1/2 those guys. A few were before Bernie and Bernie didn't coach the SF's.

OK thanks! Now I'm curious. Who did coach those guys? And who coached the SF's?

 

[retro44]

Bernie did not coach Mike Lee, Hackett and Sease, as all played for Roy Danforth and graduated before JB became head coach.

OK I will add in Billy Owens,plus the kid from Union Endicott,John Wallace,Jeremy McNeil,Watkins,Roberts and Rick Jackson. These guys were not soft

 

[UnderHisOwnPower]

Meeks, Hicks, and Maye aren't really particularly skilled to me. They are huge and stronger than our guys. We recruit longer/leaner guys and they recruit big beefy strong guys good at chasing offensive rebounds. Williams has always had the same system. Run your bigs down the middle of the court on the break and chase boards off outside shots. It's really not that complicated. Meeks, Hicks, and Maye aren't pro's and aren't very skilled outside of rebounding and making layups. They do keep a lot of guys 4 years, something we aren't able to do for whatever reason. If we had McCullough alongside Lydon/Roberson and Malachi and Ennis in the backcourt we probably win. I think it's just interesting to me that UNC never has guys leave early. Must be nice.

Dump and chase. It wouldn't surprise me if Roy has a practice drill actually called dump and chase. He recruits a few water bug PGs, teaches his bigs to get out and fill the lanes, and voila, 85 PPG. Having a shooter or 2 for a bail out 3 is icing on the cake.